'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Wow, that was a lot of reading since last time I really looked. It's really good, because you are all getting more and more of your feelings into words that help you understand them and 'allow' yourself to feel them - which you have to do before your body will release them.

I can't believe the selfishness of some of your mothers and what they have put you through and your suffering has probably not even crossed their minds. They are too wrapped up in their own crap.

I wonder how much NPD people are 'born with' and how much is caused simply by people being too wrapped up in their own crap to have any time, space and energy to think about anyone else. Yes I can sympathise a bit with parents of ours who had problems, but when you have children, especially when you've chosen to have children and gone to great efforts to have them (eg mine going through all the processes to adopt), you've got to find a bit of strength to do the job and find resources within yourself to give to your children. Mine didn't look after me emotionally but when I read that some of your parents didn't even look after you physically and got angry about cooking you a meal or washing your clothes, well !!!!

We are also wrapped up in our own crap a lot of the time, because it takes lots of energy and time to process it all, and it is probably similar to how our parents felt, but I can see from things that are written that you are not neglecting your children to the extent our parents did. I often worry that I'm neglecting the children by not being fully in the moment with them (I'm trying to do it the way it says in the Buddhism for Mothers book), because my mind is on things that are bothering me from the past or recent past, and things I have to do in the near future which I'm worrying about finding the time or resources to get done. It can make me distant and irritable with them, and like I can't be bothered to drag my mind away from the past and future stuff to be with them properly and resent having to do it. They must feel like I'm not really there or not really noticing that they are there but that they are just part of the furniture that happens to be there, not actively wanted, loved, and interested in. They must feel they are not important to me and therefore not important full stop.

This is how I felt as a child as well as all the worse stuff, and I can see how it passes on through the generations if I am too preoccupied to look after my children properly because of what they did to me, just like they were because of what was done to them. This is what I mean by feeling some sympathy for their situation.

But, I think that because we have gone through it, we may judge ourselves really harshly and think that it is unacceptable if we are like that ever, or a tiny bit like our old relatives ever. We are really scared of being as shit as them. But the reality is probably that all normal people are preoccupied with their crap sometimes and a bit distant and irritable with their kids sometimes.

A good way to reassure yourself or measure whether you are doing it better than your parents did is to look at what you are doing that is good rather than what you are not. (I'm writing this for people who are worried they may be NPD because of the way their parents were.) When you do something, the smallest things as well as the bigger things, eg cuddle your child because he/she has fallen over and hurt themselves, think 'is this something my parents did for me?' I realise 'No, they didn't comfort me, but I do this for my children so that is one thing I do better'. 'Collect' these thoughts throughout the day - all the little things, and bigger things, that you do for them which all add up to you being a better parent than them and that will show you that you are not as shit as them. Also, the more you focus on what good things you do, the more it motivates you to do more of them and become even better.

Talking about them being shit, it strikes me from reading loads of posts, how we can still believe the impression that our old relatives gave us as children, that we are crap, until way into adulthood. A thought that has helped me is - if we did the bad things they did, and failed to do the things they should have done, we would judge ourselves harshly and think that we were utterly crap. Well this is also how we should judge them for how they were/still are in some cases. So if they were that crap, why should we value their opinion of us? Why should we let it upset us? Their opinion is ill informed, well probably just - ill! Disregard it! You are better than them. Don't let those twats ruin your life, especially if they are doing it subconsciously/or in some cases consciously and completely on purpose, in order to feel superior to someone or to vent their negative stuff onto someone, who happens to be you.

Or in some cases it looks like they want you to achieve so that they can show off about it and make out that it is down to their parenting and therefore their achievement. They are using you to try to make them look good, and it's all about them, not about being happy for you because you've achieved something you wanted. You don't have to bust a gut doing something you hate in order to do this for them. They shouldn't have had you for the purpose of making them look good and they shouldn't try to make you do it by making you feel rubbish if you don't do it. Don't believe them! You are not rubbish if you don't want to do it. It is not true, they are just making you feel that because they are trying to manipulate you into doing things that will make them look good vicariously through you.

You don't actually have to achieve anything to be someone worthy of love and respect, you just have to be someone who can live harmoniously with the rest of the world without hurting anyone frequently. We all deserve to be valued. What makes you love and respect the people you love and respect - I bet it isn't mainly down to their job title, bank balance and possessions! You should judge yourself by the same criteria you judge other people by. Writing those things down and then applying them to yourself can help.

I think some of that thing about being able to see how bad other people's situation is, more than your own, is down to fear. Fear that if you ask for sympathy and help with your stuff, the other person might not believe you how bad your stuff was, or not think that you deserve help, or that you might not be important enough to them for them to spend time listening to you or helping you. Then you would feel the rejection you felt as a child all over again, and the prospect of that is too painful. It is easier/less scary to try to heal yourself by proxy, by helping other people in similar situations. This is how I have been anyway.

The problem is, that it helps you a little bit, but doesn't really help you properly, and can end up causing more problems for yourself (getting wrapped up in other people's stuff, putting their needs ahead of yours, ending up getting used/taken for granted/abused by them, resenting it, thinking 'what about ME, when is anyone going to care about me' etc).

I just thought about applying some of my own advice to myself. I wrote that stuff about parents making you feel you must achieve and I was mainly thinking about you TRSmithfield.

Then I thought about how crap I feel I am because I don't have a job outside the home as well as being a mother and housewife.

I feel that people might think I don't have the intelligence or capability to have a 'good job'.

I sometimes think maybe I should prove that I do have the intelligence and capability by actually getting a job, even though I don't want one! I want to prove it to other people and prove it to myself, even though I know deep down that I have intelligence and capability.

But I thought after writing that long post, maybe just because I'm not proving I am intelligent and capable by having a 'proper' job doesn't mean I'm not. Maybe I don't have to prove it.

The trouble is, I'm not always sure I believe it. I may have the intelligence but I'm not completely sure about the capability. I mean I am capable of lots of things but find the prospect of them terrifying because of confidence/anxiety/emotional problems issues.

If I had a job, what would happen on days when I woke up feeling like I was going to cry and the prospect of anyone even looking at me seemed painful? Or the days when I actually was in physical pain because I get terrible headaches and nausea with PMT. What about when I'm having an 'everyone thinks I'm stupid, look stupid, sound stupid, look/sound too much like a child to be capable of anything responsible, what if people get angry or humiliate me in front of everyone and my words etc clam up and I freeze and look like a stupid child and nobody can take me seriously ever again and they are angry with me and think I'm crap and I think I'm just as crap as the child I used to be and haven't changed like I hoped I had' day? On those days I would find it almost impossible to leave the house so I would have to skive (like I often did when I had jobs).

If I skived due to these types of things I would feel crap about myself and I'm scared of feeling that and actually scared to get a job outside of the home.

Knowing that I'm scared makes me feel crap about myself even though I don't actually want to get a job. I worry about whether I should prove to myself that I can do it in order to heal that fear that I still have sometimes even more than I've healed it so far - to conquer the last remaining bits. But then what? Would I do it, prove it, then resign because I never wanted the job in the first place?

I find it hard to relax because I feel guilty about not working hard enough. Well actually, it is more to do with worrying that other people will think I am not working hard enough and that I am crap.

I've been doing loads of work (not related to a job outside the home) on different things that have had to be done lately, which is partly why I haven't been on here much recently. I am tired, but when I try to relax, even if I'm doing something relaxing, my body is tense and my mind is still racing and I don't feel any better after. Then it looks to DH like I've done relaxing things and shouldn't be complaining that I'm tired, but I still am!

I feel too guilty about relaxing to let myself relax. I'm really preoccupied with how lazy I think people think I am. It's all about what I think other people think.

This morning someone has been doing some work in my house and I have been on MN. I couldn't relax because I was thinking about him working really hard and seeing me 'relaxing' on the computer and thinking I was lazy. But I'm really tired and if I don't relax a bit, I won't be in a fit state to do all the things I need to do later and look after the children. So I'm worried about not relaxing and that is making me even more tense. I haven't sat and done this for ages yet I still feel guilty.

If I try to forget what other people might think though and think about my own opinion - Have I worked hard lately and made a good job of the things I've done - Yes
Do I deserve to do a bit of what I want and have a bit of a rest - Yes
Should I rest so that I have energy to do tasks later and to have the energy to be in a happy mood with the children even when they are being difficult (especially DS going through a difficult phase) - Yes. I am doing the right thing but just need to convince myself.

Because I never properly let go and relax, I feel really tired a lot of the time and sometimes find it hard to cope. Tiredness seems to intensify all emotional problems.

SAHM, my psychologist asked me to keep a weekly timesheet. It's got the days at the top and hour-long slices down the side - same as a desk planner. A lifelong hater of schedules, I've found I like filling it in! I was amazed at how much I actually do during a day (I thought I did nothing, of course.) I also put little boxes on mine, to tick when I've done something purely for enjoyment. It's a helpful reminder

Mind you, some days it just says mumsnet mumsnet mumsnet --

So. I was in rehab. My mother stayed in my flat, so she could visit me easily. She agreed to attend the weekly family session, which was nice of her. At one of these sessions, the family members had to tell their addict how their actions had damaged the family. Comes to Mum's turn: "I worry about you, Grace!" I said I knew she did, and was sorry she worried. She went on ... and on: "I can't sleep! If I do, I dream about you - drinking! - and wake up crying! I'm so worried!" I interrupted her, gently: "I think they want to know about any times I've stolen from you; smashed up your car; hit you. That sort of thing." The counsellor nodded gratefully. "Oh, no!" said Mum, shocked, "You've never done anything like that! You've always been lovely to me! But I'm so worried about you ..."

On my last day, I told the directors Mum was still in my flat. They instantly issued notice that I had to stay in another 24 hours for 'observation'. Mum went home.

I was in the middle of renovating my flat. During the four weeks she stayed, Mum didn't do a stroke of DIY - or even gardening (though she did take some cuttings from the overgrown passion fruit out back.)

Silly bitch.

Grace, god your mum must have made you feel lonely. In a twisted way, do you think her denial of you doing anything damaging to fuel your addictions (assuming you did, sorry if that's wrong) was a way of denying your right to have become addicted? I mean, the pain that led to the addiction? Because she'd then have had to answer for that pain? Or was it just pure NPD me me me-ism?

I feel like my parents deny there is anything in my life to complain about all the time. It feels like a denial of my pain, which is in turn a denial of the source of the pain, their behaviour. It's a denial of my life and existence as the person I now am in a way.

My father's classic deflection of much of his behaviour is his "worry" for us. It makes you feel like the shit for not appreciating that worry, even if it's unfounded and when it causes trouble where there was none to begin.

I'm not sure if I've already posted these stories. Sorry for any repetition ...

After losing my flat, I rented a little place down on the coast and managed to get shousing benefit. Some idiot reported me as a benefit cheat (the dangers of a small town! I wasn't cheating.) My benefits were stopped for two months 'pending investigation'. This meant my rent went unpaid; I was facing eviction. Mum said she would lend me the outstanding rent. She came down to mine, sat on my sofa and told me she wanted to take me back to hers for a week "to make sure I ate properly". I pointed out that the landlord needed to be paid. Then she said - well, more like shrieked hysterically - "I want you to come and live with me for sx months!" However, she didn't hear herself say that - no word of a lie, she denies it today - and carried on haranguing me about stopping for a week. As I had no food, no money, and was nearly out of electricity, it sounded very unreasonable to refuse a week's hospitality.

She did not pay the rent. I was evicted. A family friend put my stuff into storage down South - and Mum arranged for it to be brought up to hers, without my knowledge. (She put it in her garage, which is damp & dirty.) I ended up living - very peripherally - at hers for 2 years; the only reason I got out was because the local MHU found me this house. That means I've now been rescued from my mother by 2 psychiatrists! It wasn't until I realised this, six months ago, that it really hit home how poisonous she is.

Going back several pages: That's why I can't move back to London. I'm skint, and stuck out here because at least I have a house to live in. There isn't any work here. I'm 5 miles from Mum; this is her nearest town

Mum still enjoys her saintliness in having brought me to live with her, due to my mental illness. I am a fine example of what a life full of NPDs can do to an otherwise fit & healthy adult

I still have trouble giving credence to this. She was always poor, lovely Mum, being shat upon by mad Dad. But she is insane.
That's why I'm writing this (again?) So much of what I internalised, from her 'lovely' mothering, contributed to my terrible choices, self-sabotage and low expectations. I WANT RID OF IT!! Therefore, I have to look at the truth: all of it, in all its ugliness.

Of course, this reluctance is also what keeps abused women in their relationships - maybe it happened to Mum, too, and she went mad because of it. I'll never know about her; I just know I want shot of all those damaging ideas before I die of old age!

Hi, Refreshers - no, I didn't do anything bad. I was only borderline alcoholic anyway; I'd been crushed by my bully NPD boss and my mad XH - the company paid for my rehab as part of my redundancy package, but their insurance wouldn't cover it for depression. I thought I may as well get the benefit

It was Mummy Me, entirely! She loves the drama of having an Alcoholic Daughter. In fact, she loves it so much, she's now decided my sister is also an alkie! Found this out last time I saw sis.

Can you explain what you mean about your parents denying your pain?

Me: Is it true you left me alone at home for a weekend, when I was less than a year old?
Mum: Not a whole weekend.
Me: How long, then?
Mum: Just one night. And two days.
Me: Ah. Was that okay?
Mum: No, I worried about you the whole time! (emerging theme here)
Me: Oh, I see. You did care about your baby, but decided to go anyway?
Mum: Dad insisted.
Me: Uh-huh. Where did you stay?
Mum: [tells story about weekend - they went away as it was too stressful to have sex with a baby at home]
Me: Do you feel it was all right to leave baby at home while you went off shagging?
Mum: Times were different then, it was normal to leave a baby at home while you got on with things.
Me: Not overnight, Mum, not even then.
Mum: [blames Dad for insisting on the trip]
Me: You said yes, though. You put your sex life in front of your baby's welfare.
Mum: I knew you'd be safe. And I didn't enjoy the weekend, I was so worried about leaving you!
Me: Yes, Mum, I got that you were worried. But you still did it.
Mum: Perhaps I shouldn't have done. But you know how persuasive Dad could be.
Me: Are you saying he bullied you into it?
Mum: Well, no, sex with him was so great, I thought it would be good for our relationship [goes off into TMI about their great sex life]

...

OrdinarySAHM like Startingtoheal I relate to so much of what you say. I've been a SAHM for the last two years and will remain so for some years to come with DC2 on the way. The general antipathy towards SAHMs is bad enough, but the self doubt and constant guilt is the real twist of the knife. If you "went to work" you'd be entitled to go to the loo in peace without your boss staring at you asking you what you are doing; have your lunch sitting down and perhaps reading/net surfing/having a pleasant conversation, rather than standing at the kitchen sink, cajoling a resistant little master or madam to have a morsel and please not throw it on the floor, be prevailed upon to read a story or play; send a guilt free social email in between professional tasks, there aren't many natural breaks when there's always something in the house that could be done. None of that down time at the workplace is "work" but it's the stuff you need to get through the day and makes for a civilised workplace. Imagine the stress without so much as a coffee break or watercooler chat. There would be a revolution. I've never worked anywhere where a modicum of personal time during work hours is frowned upon.

Childcare and housework is not deemed to be work, even though people who do go out to work have to pay someone else to do this stuff. It constantly amazes me that some people are really arsy towards SAHMs whilst at the same time paying vast amounts of money to third parties to do the same tasks (not just talking about working mums here; it's all those single blokes with cleaners, handymen, gardeners too, anyone who delegates these tasks to someone else because they don't have time). Yes, ironing is not rocket science, but I was a lawyer for 14 years and a vast amount of the stuff I had to do didn't require great intellect or intelligence, you just had to have a modicum of common sense. (And I've never been able to bloody iron, by the way). But all household tasks require vast amounts of energy, organisation, time, patience; add in child rearing and you need all of the above plus intelligence, compassion, love, selflessness a massive sense of humour....and did I mention time, time, time? It's more bloody exhausting that any other job I ever had. And what I do now is honest and means something, not a feeling I had much whilst practising law.

SAH motherhood earns no money, has no status, makes you invisible, all qualities that are anathema to NPDs like my parents who are all about status. If you are still trying to please the NPD then you'll feel like crap as a SAHM.After all, they are the last people to either value good parenting or give you the credit for being better than them. If you are still the bruised and battered child of an NPD who could never do well enough, then you'll feel like crap because the washing basket fills up, the dishes get dirty, the child stops eating her vegetables, the state of perfection that will suddenly make everything ok and your parents love you and proud of you is always out of reach. It's exhausting trying to reach it, and if we're having some well deserved rest time, well, we're just not trying hard enough, are we?

I hear the cry of mummy....apologies, this post is a bit ranty, I'm feeling like this stuff is erupting out of me at the moment.

Me: What prompted my grandparents to offer to have me live with them?
Mum: Your grandmother never considered me a good wife. It was her way of putting me down.
Me: OK, so she offered to take your eldest off your hands just to get back at you? Wouldn't it have been a lot of work for her?
Mum: Well, she liked you. And she could see you weren't happy (first time she admitted I was an unhappy child.)
Me: So what prompted it? Was it when they found us at home alone?
Mum: Yes, they came round for a surprise visit, and found you all at home without us.
Me: How long had you gone away for?
Mum: Four nights.
Me: I was 8, wasn't I? You left an 8-year-old to look after 3 younger children, without asking any adults to check on them?
Mum: Umm, we didn't think of asking anyone. (More like: didn't want to tell anyone, but I let that go)
Me: I only remember one moment from that. The kids were starving, but we could only find bread, eggs and some mouldy cheese. I rubbed the mould off the cheese with salt, I remember being proud of knowing how to do it. We lived on cheese omelettes. God knows what I fed the baby.
Mum: I left you plenty of food! I would never have left you without food! (This is true.)
Me: Oh dear. Maybe I hadn't understood about the food you left.
Mum: No, perhaps not ...
Me: ... I was only 8.
Mum: I wasn't a very good mother, was I?
Me: No, Mum, I'm afraid you weren't.

I only found about the two incidents above a couple of years ago; my brothers & sisters told me. It was a revelation. I've been aware for ages that I showed a lot of the symptoms of 'abandonment issues' but, as far as I knew, had no underlying cause for them. Once I'd started the discussions with Mum, I found out that Dad left for long periods - six months at a time, usually; he volunteered for overseas secondments - far more often than I'd realised. He basically seems to have come home for just long enough to make another baby, then buggered off again leaving Mum with an expanding brood, hardly any money and no transport. Nice guy.

If she wasn't mad before she married him, I guess she was by the time he stopped volunteering. I've tried asking my aunts what Mum was like when she was young, but they're really polite and just witter on about her loveliness. Bloody families!!! Can't live with 'em; can't shoot 'em ...

Thank you for the vent

Refreshers, is there really antipathy towards SAHMs? It's true that we don't really get just how taxing it is (every time I've stood in for a friend with DCs, I've come away feeling completely flattened!) but I didn't think there was really much "looking down" on it these days. Correct me where I'm wrong, please ...

Proposals for the state to pay wages to SAHMs make me angry, but not proposals for increased funding to chidcare & support services. I get infuriated by threads here, where salaried husbands (or, occasionally, wives) treat the child-and-home carer as a drain on their resources. I do actually think they should "go on strike" more often. Several of my colleagues' wives did it - it generally made their point, for a while at least

Grace I am Your parents are/were beyond the pale.

Denial of pain: it's so hard to explain.

When we were little my brother and little sister and I cried, begged, pleaded parents to stop their fighting, abuse or whatever was going on. We expressed our pain this way and tried to make them realise they were hurting us. They (particularly my mother) denied our pain in characterising this upset as play-acting, attention seeking, over dramatising etc etc, but the point was, what we felt was not real in their view.

I stopped "letting it out" at some stage in my teens, stopped showing the pain through tears/appeals and internalised it. I became withdrawn and quiet. The pain doesn't go though, it manifests in self loathing, anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts (and I'm afraid acts). When I've tried, as an adult, to address these feelings, they still do the whole 'there's nothing wrong with your life, you are just being dramatic' thing. It's a bit hard to believe your own pain - your own truth - in these circumstances.

I wondered whether your addiction was a similar outlet for your pain. I have not been in rehab, but from the little I know, isn't facing up to things you've done part of the healing even if that's admitting the bad stuff you've done? I wondered whether your mother denying you had done anything "bad" was a way of her saying, as my parents do, "Grace is just being over-dramatic, she never stole from me, her condition wasn't that bad..." ergo your pain that caused the addiction wasn't that bad, ergo undermining your rehabilitation.

Obviously caveat the above with your confirming you didn't do any bad things!

Does that make any sense?

To be honest I think the part time working mums have it worse. At work they are second class employees cause they arent their all the time. At home they are expected to be SAHM's cause they dont work full-time. Worst of both worlds.

I would love to be a SAHM but cant afford it without having to move house and especaiily not now if my H end sup leaving.I feel guilty all the time Im at work for leaving my kids and then guilty when Im at home cause I am not clearing my work load. Perhaps that is just me trying to be the perfect woman instead of just being me....

Total sense, Refreshers. Yes, I was over-drinking as 'emotional medication' and also used too many drugs when younger. I have a sturdy survival mechanism, though, thank god. As you (?) said recently, I seem to hurtle through boundaries right to the limit of my tolerance, then come to a juddering halt on the precipice. This type of crisis-to-crisis life is, essentially, what I want to change about myself.

I've just failed (again) to stop smoking, so it seems I still need to keep one addiction on the go ...

YES, I completely empathise with what you said about denial of pain, internalisation of same, and so forth. Internalising the unheard anger as well as the hurt.

It's because of this that I'm trying so hard to stare the truth in the face. Can't beat a monster until you can see it.

It helps, enormously, that you're being my "witnesses". Thank you very much for reading

Hi Grace, hellish these saintly mums isnt it Everyone else thinks how wonderful they are whilst only we realise what they are really like. Still haven't found a way to cope with the well meaning people who feel they must tell me how wonderful my mother is. Don't supposed it is normal behaviour to scream at them

Grace I think there's antipathy towards all mothers. We are responsible for all society's ills. The ones that work are guilty of child neglect (working mum friend last week accused of neglecting her DD by DD's teacher); children gone wild; taking the piss in the workplace re flexible hours; burdening men and women without kids with their work overspill and making them pay for their lifestyle choices; ruining small businesses. Etc.

SAHMs are leeches on society, lazy ladies that lunch, pushy mums who want Tarquin to do his maths GCSE before he's out of pampers, helicopter mums who smother their kids and who are breeding a generation of people with no independence or confidence, women who have betrayed the feminist movement, women who have betrayed the taxpayers who paid for their educations and the businesses that trained them, virtual whores who married a rich man to keep them. Etc.

You know what, it's amazing how many husbands of SAHMs seem to think this about their wives and the mothers of their children. Some of the men I used to work with - shudder.

Doesn't stop with mums, either.

Women who can't have kids: inadequate, substandard, draining the NHS with their IVF and society with their bleating, it's your own fault for enjoying yourself too much and not getting on with breeding earlier.

Women who choose not to have kids: unnatural, unfeminine, selfish, lesbian, ball-breakers. Don't you know my Tarquin is going to have to pay for someone to empty your bedpan when you are old?

Women can't win, mothers can't win. Or that's how it feels to me. And women are usually our own worst enemies we spend a lot of time attacking each others' choices. Bad people, abusers and pisstakers come in all guises. Why does society always try to vilify whole groups rather than just the evil individuals?

Anyone who feels that society is against their choices, who also has underlying issues from childhood, must feel the injustice tenfold, I think. I know I do.

Sorry that was all off topic. I'm aware many of my posts morph from "me" to "we" sorry about that, I'm just speaking for myself and not trying to lump everyone else in with my views. The 'we' was a technique I learned at work to make clients feel comfortable, hard habit to break. Will post this rant and duck for cover!

Women can't win. Or that's how it feels.

Wow, you're feeling your anger now Refreshers

I agree with your points in general - ie, I'm a feminist - but, ahem, wonder how much of that fury has been diverted from justified anger at your parents? Armchair psychology, ignore at will. Sorry.

I've heard childless women talk about social disapproval - no, that's a lie: I've read articles claiming to quote other women. But I haven't experienced it. Social clumsiness, yes, but no actual disapproval. Afaik, none of my childless friends have either. IME, same applies to SAHMs. You get people who don't know what to say after you've answered "What do you do?" and that's socially inept of them, but not the same as prejudice/discrimination.

We're living through interesting times for women. It's tricky, carving an untrodden path, but I'd still rather be doing it than having to get married or starve. These are uncertain times for men, too. And now I am way off topic!

It might be an idea to get offline - and outside my own head - for a couple of hours. Dying to see what's here when I get back!!

Can you tell Im shocked (BAD LANGUAGE ALERT!)

Oh my f'ing god grace YOUR MOTHER! she left you alone? As in.. completely alone??? When you were a baby?
I want to cry I feel so so so sad and reading that on your behalf. A defenceless, adorable, little bundle of total trusting innocence left all weekend. ....To have sex?

Surely you would have been crying out in hunger? bewilderment?

Sorry but I couldnt help interjecting after reading that... .

Oh, I get the denial of pain thing. I told/tried to tell my mum at one stage I was depressed (Id been in my home for weeks, contemplated ending it).

Her (disgusted look): Dont be ridiculous Smithfield

Ill be back laterx

Grace, I'm also , that's defintitely hardcore even by Stately Homes standards!

So I think my Dad must have got my letter, because I've had plenty of withheld numbers to my mobile. I've turned both my mobile and landline off. I had an e-mail back from my sister:

Hi Queen,

Completely fine with me. Whether or not you choose to see Dad is completely your decision.

I do feel though, for what it's worth, that not letting DD see Dad is very difficult for everybody. Please, please, please can you let us take her to see Dad or have [abusive ex] drop her off her when he's here and we can drop her home. Please.

sis

It triggered me when I got it a few hours ago, but now looking at it again, less so. My sister to date has not asked me why I left my abusive ex last year nor why I don't want contact with our Dad. I've offered to tell her, but I don't think she wants to know.

Feel a bit up and down, I have a strong urge to drink lots and/or take some tranqs/sleeping tablets, but I know I need to feel the emotions rather than blank them out. It's why it took me over 30 years to remember what my Dad did and the memories are still coming back. I have a very itchy skin rash and lots of headaches, which I know are from all of this.

Thank you for all your kind words

I suspect it's not all that unusual in the context of Stately Homes - the one thing we have in common is that our parents put their own needs before their children's basic welfare. I don't know which side of the "children before spouse" argument I'm on, but simple health & safety needs - that any reasonable parent would attend to - were put aside by ours. I've just realised that, if I was eight, then I was looking after a baby and a toddler: if it was a school week, I must have left them at home all day! Need to find somebody who remembers it, so I can apologise if so ... and there I am, parenting again. Sigh.

I am furious about my Mum's failure to protect us (me) but I don't hate her. She was just hopelessly incompetent - then, as now, she lived in LaLaLand and my Dad took the piss. Hugely.

Throughout my adult life, I mistook "feeling" love for "doing" love. This is what I inherited from Mum, and to a large extent it blighted my life. I remember calling her for advice about my impending wedding to Mistake#2 - she asked "Does he tell you he loves you? That's a big thing for a man, I think you should respect it."
Dad, on the other hand, told me to "Watch what he does, never mind the words." Which told me quite a bit about their relationship.

I think I've out-blurted myself for today ... finally!

Refreshers, I did get what you were saying about your parents' lack of respect for your chosen role, and I'm sorry I haven't responded properly.

Smithfield, if you're still here (I guess you might be up, fretting) - hope all goes well for you tomorrow. I'm sure your colleagues will miss you, even if your boss is only sorry to be losing a convenient target

Freeeeeedom!! xx

I am SO worth while

... and so are you