'But We Took You to Stately Homes'...a thread for adult children of abusive families

[therealsmithfield]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parent?s behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotional abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesnt have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure wether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts;.

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

follow up to pages first thread

Im sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out grin. I personally dont claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will recieve a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Hello, I posted here on Sunday and then my computer died, so have not been able to say thank you to Diving, Grace and Sal for your support and wise words and the rest of you for reading. Actually the time off from being online made me think and I realise that Bradshaw's words in Homecoming - that you cannot be a good parent unless you are healed - triggered in me a reaction harking back to childhood. It's obvious really - I wanted Bradshaw to praise me for being a good mum despite my childhood experiences! I wanted the reassurance from him that I have not and will not become my mother or father and to pat me on the head for doing so well at mothering despite having no example to follow, little support and PND. He may as well have been my father yelling at me when I got my GCSEs. No it didn't matter about all the As I'd got, I'd got 2 Cs that proved what a useless f*ckwit I am and it didn't matter that my whole life I'd studied and revised in a war zone including being woken in the night and ranted at by my crazy mother and going to school on no sleep. It was all my fault I had "failed". And I'm crying inside because I thought I'd done so well in the circumstances and I just wanted someone to recognise that and say well done; whilst at the same time there's a voice in my head saying, yes, you are a big failure.

I'm starting to recognise situations that trigger reactions in me, and they usually all centre around me feeling hard done by in the praise department while at the same time feeling that, indeed, I am not not good enough and could do/have done better.

And there's usually a third party involved in these scenarios: the Golden Child of my childhood always rears her head. Because as a child I was never as good as my older sister and never have been since, despite all the advantages they lavished on her at the expense of their other children and her self-centredness, greed and contempt for them in return. She got everything, was able to be the bad girl and they still loved her the most. Golden Child comes up in all sorts of guises: DH's ex (treated him badly but he'll not hear a word against her); work colleagues whose messes I would mop up but who got away scott free and the bosses still loved them; so and so down the road who's having a great time being a mum, why can't you just buck up and appreciate having a baby like her, why are you so ungrateful (well it's not fair, she gets lots of help from her mum and still gets to have a life, how can I compete against that, aren't I doing ok too?).....and so on.

I used to think I was a psycho, with an inflated idea of my own fabulousness weirdly coupled with massive amounts of self doubt, self hatred and resentment and jealousy about everything and everyone. In other words that I'm NPD. I'm wondering now if what's been happening in my head is just trigger after trigger setting me off on a path mapped out by my parents because I've never stopped being that child with her not quite perfect exam results.

So, my formal apologies to Mr Bradshaw. You are neither my mother or my father, and you are not in the business of being the substitute for my dream parents. You are trying to help me and I will try to appreciate that.

Have caught up on all your posts since Sunday, they are all so helpful when I'm trying to work out my own issues, I'm so grateful for all the people who share their experiences here.

Refreshers, you are my secret twin!

All this...

"my father yelling at me when I got my GCSEs. No it didn't matter about all the As I'd got, I'd got 2 Cs that proved what a useless f*ckwit I am and it didn't matter that my whole life I'd studied and revised in a war zone"

"situations that trigger reactions in me, and they usually all centre around me feeling hard done by in the praise department while at the same time feeling that, indeed, I am not good enough and could do/have done better."

"I used to think I was a psycho, with an inflated idea of my own fabulousness weirdly coupled with massive amounts of self doubt"

... is me. On Monday, I told my psychologist I experience her as critical: when she "challenges" me - as she should - it triggers all my (passive-aggressive) defences. She changed to a gentler style of challenge, bless her, but it still means here's another thing I need to get past.

Reading NPD journals, like Sam Vaknin's, alarmed me greatly because I identified closely with NPD thinking! Just as you've described, I now believe this is because I was brought up to think that way, by people who do have the condition. I have actually got a book called "An Adult Child's Guide To What's Normal": invaluable, but nowhere near deep enough!

I wish it were easier to find books about balanced, healthy people living stable, normal lives. I guess they don't make for interesting reading ... but I'd be on them like a shot!

Yes yes and yes. Me too. In fact I constantly do think I am NPD.
So Grace why is this? Have you got any further in understanding it? Is it that the NPD person bounces it back at ya. Like brainwashing. You know the way they do, its all about them......yet it's all your fault?
I dont know but this is interesting.

Still holding it together. Forgot to buy zinc and awaiting startings gaffer tape supply .
just keep swimming....

Hmm, Smithfield, I haven't given it a whole lot of head-space but agree: it was a matter of survival to us, as kids, to anticipate what the parents would want/think/feel. So, hey presto, we develop an incredible ability to think like an NPD

What highlighted it, for me, was the thing about Narcissists having fixed ideas about who & what they are, and their dreams of the future. Where 'normal' people think in terms of stories: we have little internal movies about ourselves; your NPD has tableaux. There's an image of him standing before the fireplace at Christmas, for example, with the family arranged around him just so.

I think like this. But I'm a great story-teller. I sometimes write myself stories about what I want to achieve, and so on. Seeing the difference between the NPD tableau and my stories, I tested my Mum out. I've always thought of her as an imaginative mother ... but it turns out she can't invent stories. She read them to us, but hasn't the capacity to develop a story-line for herself. She thinks in stills, I think in sequences. Therefore she's NPD, I'm not. Hurrah

I know. I can still only look at it sideways, iykwim.

Re your neglected house: my parents were terrible at house maintenance. It always took them by surprise when the gutters got clogged up or something broke - in the light of 'fixed ideas', I can easily comprehend that. The house was nice when we moved in, so why wouldn't it still be nice 2 years later? (Er, because things in the real world are always changing?)

Oddly, though, my mother's a keen gardener. She seems perfectly at ease with 7-year planting plans, and bringing things on from seed to maturity. I don't get why she has vision in that area, but no others

I really fear I am NPD, although I only learned about this disorder in the last few weeks reading this thread. Before that, I just feared I was turning into one or both of my parents.

I wonder if it is it because I have been hardwired by my parents to bury my own needs and put theirs' first (translate to putting everyone else and the dog's feelings first in later life)? I feel guilt when I want to talk about my problems. I don't know when it's reasonable to talk about/act on my own needs, and so it's easy for others (real NPDs usually) to tell me I am selfish when I do. And then, of course, there's that nasty little voice in my head telling me I'm selfish too.

In my case, when a concern/issue does come out, it's usually after days/weeks/months of resentfully burying it, and the matter comes out, not calmly or rationally, but in a rant usually triggering a massive argument. And who looks like the psycho then? Me of course; even if the basis for my upset is valid, the way it comes out not only diminishes the strength of my concern/hurt but makes me sound like nobody else in the world matters but me, especially if it's a matter that's a molehill and my burying it has turned it into a mountain. If I rant at real NPDs like my parents or older sister, it's so easy for them to tell me I have a problem and I'm mad/have a bad attitude/ selfish, after all, it's me that's gone off the rails about something trivial, or failed to bring up the subject at the relevant time (even if there's no way they would have allowed me to). If I rant at one of the good people in my life, like my DH or DD (just a baby, god help her), then I really really upset them, and evil voice in my head tells me I am evil and selfish for hurting them.

I believe I "attract" NPDs and let them get to me. sometimes, because I let them into my life (like my ex); sometimes they are just there in the form of colleagues or so called friends. I often wonder why some peoples' antics get to me when other people find it easy to ignore them. Particular work colleagues I've had problems with don't seem to bother other people. If you've had a "normal" upbringing, do the machinations of NPDs in RL not effect you? Can you see through them and avoid them? If you were brought up by NPDs do you end up befriending them, then being caught up in their dramas and "tarred" by them? I can think of a few bonkers people in my life who fit the bill and I inevitably become caught up in their dramas and feel that people think I'm as bad as them.

But there's a difference isn't there? An NPD will make a situation all about them at any cost to others and will do this aggressively. NPD victims, in trying so hard to make it NOT about them, end up behaving like an NPD because if you've neglected yourself and your own needs for so long, it's going to come out at some point as one big needy cry for help, often out of context, often triggered by something seemingly trivial in itself but following a culmination of many such events, and often aimed at the wrong person. And we look mad because of it. And, because we are hard on ourselves and have our inner evil voices, we feel like we are mad and bad too. When the reality - in my case anyway - is that we're just profoundly sad.

Just read that back and it's a ramble and I've morphed from the I into the we. I'm sure similar things have been discussed before and far more articulately than my musings. It is lovely to have somewhere to get this out of one's system, though!

Grace wish I was your twin as I'd be lucky to have half your wisdom. Tell me, did your dear papa after bollocking you at home lap up all the public praise that came with your, no doubt, considerable academic achievements? I will never forget the weekly humiliations in town, seemingly every Saturday my dad holding court to one or more teachers we'd have bumped into while doing the weekly shop, all telling him what a genius he was for bringing up such clever, able, polite children. Me just wanting to scream at the top of my lungs. No wonder he thinks he's super dad, he got all the validation he needed from such people for his fathering skills. Wish I'd taken drugs and gone off the rails, that would have shown him.

Startingtoheal, Mine was the first ever year of GCSEs (I'm going on 39). Another plus point for Golden Child, she did "proper" exams.......

The never being good enough thing just eats away at you, doesn't it? I have never ever been content. The constant need for validation from outside means I'm always missing what's in the here and now because rather than just being in the experience and enjoying it, I'm metaphorically looking around me for a witness to tell me I'm allowed to be happy/proud/enjoy something. Sometimes I do this literally. I'm that person who will take pictures of some beautiful scenery rather than just sit and gaze at it and let it nourish me. I need the picture as validation to myself and others. Yes I was there, yes it was beautiful. But it's all a bit hollow because I didn't take time to enjoy it. It's like I don't trust my own feelings/memories to be enough, I have to prove it. Does that make sense?

Bless you, Refreshers, it wouldn't have "shown him" - not if he was like my dad, anyway! I went off the rails & took lots of drugs. Dad seemed remarkably unaffected by any of it. I'm sure you're reading the NPD threads, as well, so you probably realise your father would have found ways to get his "super dad" supply - with or without your efforts.

Still, at least we got educated, even if the motivations were all haywire

We have discussed your point about "attracting" NPDs quite a bit, over on the other thread. To cut it very short: yes, there are giveaways in our behaviour, which let an abuser know that we're familiar with the pattern ... and are potential victim material. Since human communications are so very subtle, I don't believe you can get rid of the "tells". What you can do is learn how not to engage in the pairing rituals, so they don't continue trying to manipulate you.

I hope that made some kind of sense ...

You'll also see, from the other thread, how the uncontrolled ranting you describe is a well-known reaction to abuse. It's what happens when the gaslighting has made you feel you don't understand the world you live in, can't trust your own senses and are, essentially, living in a nightmare world of hostility.

If you feel you're now showing this reaction in SAFE situations (and be sure they are safe, you're not kidding yourself again) - counselling is by far the quickest way to fix it. A decent counsellor can give you the tools to evaluate your situation, observe your responses and choose your reaction. Although it feels like a deep-seated, almost insurmountable problem ... it only takes a few sessions to learn

Thank you for your compliment! Wish I felt wise! Onwards and ... onwards, hey?

I'm finding your filthy house stories absolutely fascinating. I grew up in a council house, actually a nice respectable estate of mineworkers. Our house was a filthy hole. My mother did very odd things, like mopping carpets and the wall and literally flooding the kitchen doing handwashing in the kitchen sink. She always kept bowls full of the ends of soap floating in dirty water. There was always mouldy food in the fridge. They'd do things like chuck apple cores behind the sofa rather than in the bin. Cleaning after cooking never occurred to either of my parents. We never had carpet in our bedrooms. The bathroom and loo were the stuff of horrors.

And garlic! hidden everywhere in the house. My mother thought it warded off evil spirits! Didn't work on her or my father though!

Any actual cleaning was done by myself and brother and younger sister. We did this if there was ever the threat of visitors, out of pure embarrassment and to lessen the humiliation of how we lived. We never had friends from school over.

Yet my mother used to think she was a domestic goddess, the perfect homemaker. And my father, whilst allowing his children to live in squalor (I'm convinced we must have smelled before we became old enough to take care of ourselves), would stick plaster cupids on the wall and construct gazebos and the like in the garden.

They both went on endlessly about their privileged upbringings and high connections (impossible to verify, they were immigrants, we only ever met the odd uncle passing through the UK). They had this fixed idea of their own greatness and superiority but no concept of basic decent living. They were always sneering at the neighbours, whom they considered low life, whilst living and behaving in ways totally alien to those good people. They always boasted about their superior educations, although my father was a manual labourer. He hated it when we were older and clever enough to answer back, earn our own money, weren't financially dependent on him. He thought we were having ideas above our station and not respecting his position of top dog and know it all. I wonder if that's why he had to control us physically, and put us down when we achieved good things.

A few of you have said before you have dreams you are yelling at your parents or kicking the shit out of them (that might just be me) but there's zero reaction on their part. I have those all the time. And they are always in that filthy house. In fact any bad dream i have where I am trapped/lost/in trouble/any trauma is always set in that horrible, suffocating, filthy house even if parents not in the dream. I've never grown up and I've never really left that blood house!

Wow, you've all been busy! I go to work and come back hardly able to keep up with all your posts. starting your post last night about your fear of your mother, I can relate to so much of what you said. The similarities are uncanny.

So, having been further hounded by my Dad calling and having unplugged the phone (he's now resorted to calling my mobile, still not leaving a message and also witholding his number - I'm guessinf it's him), I felt forced to send the letter saying I wanted no contact for six months.

I let my sister know by e-mail that I'd done this. No response from her yet, but have to remind myself it's only been 24 hours. I have no idea how my Dad will respond, feel both anxious and excited but 'know' I have been completely unreasoanble and am overreacting etc. I'll wait and see.

Goodness me haven't you all been busy!

I have just started back to work after 5 weeks on sick leave for depression. Was very aprehensive but everyone being really nice. H came and brought me lunch on my first day so can't be all bad. Have taken the huge step (Im a work aholic) of cutting down my hours so Im now only 3 days a week term time only and I have been told I have to leave my work mobile at work on my days off. Maybe they know me better than I know myself!

Its going to take me some time to catch up with you all but Take Care all xx

(( peels off gaffer tape and joins in momentarily)

I opened the oven once in our house and flies flew out. No- for real!
Mum had left an old bit of food in there for what must have been weeks. That should indicate how often she liked to cook. Or clean.
Most of the time I was lucky because my nan used to come around and clean the house (and cook0 for my mum. Well into her seventies she did this for her .
The only thing is I fear my house looks like a bombs hit it for the most part.

Starting I just want to give you a big hug What a horrendous start. How could your mum let you live like that

bagofrefreshers- loving your posts. I am relating on so many levels to what you write.

Grace- Yes you very wise. I think I may need to read other thread too.

Queen- I am clapping and cheering for you. Well done for sending the letter. Your dad will start stepping things up now so brace yourself . Just remember we are here for support.

Sal- Glad your feeling better. I was very touched by how much others value you. Especially at work. Surely you must see this as testement to who you are as a person. someone quite special. And I mean that in a good way

I am feeling calmer so thanks in ernest for all your kind posts.
Will let you all know how I go tommorrow.
I am anticipating hostility, and Im not even sure why.
Well actually (and its helped reading all your posts tonight) Ive worked it out to some extent. A few of you have written about fight/flight responses.
I am about to assert my needs tommorrow and so I am anticipating a need to fight or the need to fly. This is why my body was/is preparing for battle because as a child each time I attemted to assert my needs it ended in a huge fight, verbally/physically. My brain has become hardwired to expect resistance/aggression just for putting 'me' first. Knowing or realising this has helped.

tapes self back up and waves goodnight

Your description of your parents keeps making me think of Bottom & Titania in 'A Midsummer Night's Dream'!

... hope you didn't mind that

Just a quick one. So good to be able to talk about these things and share experiences. I'm feeling like less of a freak every day, but at the same time my mind is boggling at everyone's horrific experiences.

Startingtoheal Your experiences sound so horrific, how can any parent do this? And the bloody dance lessons! In our family, while the 3 younger children lived in squalor the Golden Child got to go to private boarding school (I have no idea how this was paid for, but suspect that is one of the reasons we never had enough loo roll in our house....), but us younger ones had to show her lots of compassion, because boarding school "deprived her of family life". I kid you not. Parents definitely enjoyed showing off about their privately educated eldest, perhaps this equates to your dancing lessons. Totally twisted.

I can really relate to what you are saying about empathising with others more than you can with your own horrific experiences. Is that part of the NPD conditioning, I wonder? We were taught not to feel for ourselves or have any compassion for ourselves. We didn't look after ourselves save for the fundamentals of survival (I think it relates to the whole reptilian brain thing that's been discussed here). The truth of the horrors we lived is somehow rationalised and normalised otherwise how would we survive it? So when we look back on it, and talk about it, even though the horror is bouncing off the page, and if it was someone else's experience we'd be (rightly) appalled, it just doesn't seem that bad.

I was having a discussion on related lines with my younger sister recently, about how we can read about child neglect and abuse but never really correlate these stories to our own lives, even though an outsider reading our experiences would say, you are an abused child. She was on a work related course dealing with a child abuse related topic, and everyone around the table had to briefly describe their "feelings" about their childhood. She said everyone there talked about childhood happiness. Sis was last and she said "I felt scared all the time". Sis says she shocked herself saying this, did not know where it came from. Well if she's learned any self compassion, it would be obvious because we were terrified all the time. And I can write that: as a child, I was terrified all the time and even when I left home I remained scared. But like you, staringtoheal, the reality of that bounces off me. My sis's work colleagues were horrified. My sis felt nothing but surprise at her own childhood pain. It's almost like an academic exercise talking about it.

Grace you said earlier that taking drugs etc would have made no difference to my father. You are of course right. My NC with him at the moment in part stems from an attempt I made to make him understand why his 4 outwardly successful offspring all have varying degrees of depression and 3 of us aren't speaking to each other. While he's happy to take the credit for our successes, he cannot see how our unhappiness in any way stems back to our upbringing, or indeed, his or my mother's ongoing behaviour. So my going off the rails as a teenager wouldn't have been his fault, quite the contrary, just proof that I was the bad/useless child he always said we were.

Smithfield good luck today will be thinking of you. Your posts have been inspiring for me.

Have to go, DD getting fed up with me typing when there's Lego to do.