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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

How do I STOP allowing myself to be controlled?

118 replies

QwikNameChange · 23/12/2009 08:47

I have come to the conclusion that DP DOES control me.

The way I see it, I have two options. Either show that I won't be controlled anymore or leave.

I want to try the first one first.

So i need some help. How do I get OUT of the habit of allowing him to control me?

Take this scenario ...

Its bitterly cold outside and my skin is suffering. I decide to apply body butter to myself. DP comes into the bedroom and moans that I'm putting it on as its "his job". He then accusses me of being in a mood with him about something and sulks. If I snap here, he will make out that he was joking and I'm being too sensitive but I've just realised I have not applied moisturiser to my skin for over three weeks because I'm too worried about being "caught" doing it myself. How stupid is that? So please suggest a diplomatic 'smiley face' way of dealing with this one...?

Another scenario ...

DS asks if he can have a packet of monster munch. I will automatically stop at this point and wonder if DP would allow me to get him some. I've now realised I have as much right to this shit as he does!!! So ... if I was to get the Monster Munch without his permision, he would moan. How to handle?

Lastly ...

He's at work and I've been busy all day with housework and childcare. He comes home from work and says "will you learn to shut these blinds? people can see in!" Diplomatic response?

I know alot of you would just tell him to fuck off but I don't want him to have an excuse of saying I am the one being unreasonable. If I'm all nice and respectful, I can't possibly get the blame!!

Oh, and another one is that I'm not "allowed" to go to bed before him. If I go at 8pm, he will come too. If he wants to go to bed early and I don't, he will moan and whinge until I agree to go early too. He will actually hang around me so I can't possibly stay up!

I realise its all ridiculous, I want to act on it now.

OP posts:
OfficiallyMe · 24/12/2009 00:05

Aurynne, for example, is a twat

ShinyAndNew · 24/12/2009 00:43

Aurynne, I know of a woman who stayed with a violent and sexually abusive partner because he promised her that if she ever left him he would hunt her down and murder her and her children. If he couldn't find her he would murder her brother, if she went to the police he would pay some one else to do it. She believed him. I know the man, I believe he is capable of doing the things he said.

I suppose she was just being submissive when she decided to stay then?

It is never as easy as that. EVER.

aurynne · 24/12/2009 02:04

I love how some women in MN react when someone has a different opinion... OfficiallyMe is a great example.

In spite of people like you, I will still voice out my opinions, because, you know, sometimes it is actually the one that hurts the most that ends up helping the most too. And if anyone thinks I'm wrong, well, that's what a forum is here for, to discuss things.

I still believe that there are lots of women out there who risk a lot and do leave their abusive husbands. That proves it IS possible, and saying "women have no other option than to stay" is to spit on the face of the brave ones who got out.

I stick by my posts. If someone doesn't like them, you don't have to read them or agree with them. But I still haven't insulted anyone (except abusive partners). On the other hand, I have been insulted by others. I don't care, as insults reflect the person who shouts them, and not the other way around.

Hugs to all,

Aurynne

shinystars · 24/12/2009 02:07

It definateley is up to the individual to challenge abusive behaviour, i agree, but sureley its something that society should challenge too, where do girls learn that its ok to be treated like crap, and where do boys learn its ok to bully and abuse?
How many of us have bought our sons a toy for christmas and our daughters a replica of a household appliance, eg, ironing board or a play kitchen? How many of our sons are " just boisterous " while they are pushing and shoving, yet our daughters are aggresive for doing the same?

How many threads on a weekly basis in aibu, ladies asking if theyre being tight by not giving free lifts, free babysitting, free money even,should i say something to the person whos being rude to me ect , on and on it goes,,,and why? You wouldnt see these sort of issues on a male forum im quite sure.

We are never ever taught about abuse, how to recognise it or how to deal with it, many of us saw our mothers being treated in a similar way so its normal, or were taught at an early age its not ok to say no as thats being selfish ect and we are meant to put our own needs aside for everyone else and be kind and sweet and forgiving.If other little girls pull our hair their being mean, if boys do it its because theyve got a crush on us, or so we are told.

Look at how busniess women are portrayed, there cold and hard faced while business men are just successfull.

Anyway, rambled a bit but the point is that this is usually a much bigger issue , childhood comes into it, how your parents were or what you were told about yourself when you were young. I know that before i even met my pig ex my self confidence wasnt brilliant, and thats something we should all take on board and send our daughters out into the world with a sold sense of who they are.

makkapakkamoo · 24/12/2009 02:19

OMG not finished this thread yet but Qwik, you need to read AboardtheAxiom's threadhere

I apologise if it's already been mentioned, but these men are very sly, and they keep tabs on us without our awareness. Please also visit womensaid.org.uk and check out their advice on how to clear your internet history etc.

shinystars · 24/12/2009 02:21

I will still voice out my opinions, because, you know, sometimes it is actually the one that hurts the most that ends up helping the most too.

No, it just hurts, and it is never helpfull to hurt someone.Ever.

What point are you trying to make exactly? You clearly have no understanding of how these abusive relationships work, and although i can see your point,that
it does sound ridiculous what some people put up with, the fact is they do because of a mass of reasons that you have no understanding of.

Aurynne, have you ever had a freind or family member be abused in this way?

Alambil · 24/12/2009 02:59

Also, Qwik - libraries hire out pc / internet use for free.. remember that if it gets terrible and you can get to one at all

Mmmango · 24/12/2009 05:05

Aurynne, if you want to continue discussing this, why not start your own thread in relationships? Fwiw, I think Lewis and both Shinies (!) have made good points but Qwik's thread is being hijacked a bit.

Qwik, have to agree with almost everybody else - you stop allowing him to control you by leaving. The energy you're talking about putting in to trying to change his behaviour would be better channelled into making plans to leave. In your op, you said "If I'm all nice and respectful, I can't possibly get the blame!!" and I just don't think that's true - he'll find a way to blame you however nice you are to him. Please, please just figure out how to get him out of your life - I can guarantee you that once he's gone, the relief will be incredible.

Will be thinking of you over the next couple of days, take care.

Anniegetyourgun · 24/12/2009 10:01

I understand why people who haven't been there just do not realise why apparently intelligent, strong-minded women put up with such nonsense.

I didn't even think of mine as abuse. I thought he was a nice man who was depressed and had low self esteem, and needed cheering up and comforting. I was 23 years old, never had a boyfriend before, and had assumed I was too ugly/unappealing to get one, so I was humbly grateful that this older man (mid 30s) paid me attention. He was kind to animals (we kept loads of pets in the early days) and really sweet with the children, and when I was feeling low he was really sweet with me too. There were other times, but I was sure I was strong enough to tell him where he got off and indeed, he often ended up sort-of apologising.

If I wanted to go out without him, before we had children, he would say how much he worried about me and be convinced someone was going to slip me a Micky Finn so they could have their evil way with me (somehow he never worried they'd take my kidney). He'd even offer to drive me to places and wait, sometimes for hours; I refused as I didn't want to put him to the trouble, but then he would be suspicious as to why I didn't want him there...

After we had children, of course it was the unreasonable card: how could I go out on the razz while he had to stay in looking after the sprogs?

I nearly ditched him in the early days because he lied to me about smoking, and I didn't want a partner I couldn't trust. But by then we already had a dog, and my dad wouldn't let me keep dogs so if I went back home I'd have to leave my dear doggy... so I stayed and tried to work with DH to overcome his insecurities and make a nice life for both of us. He seemed to respond and things got better for a while - then things got worse, due to external pressures (3 DCs, too many pets, not enough money, house falling down etc) and his depression pretty much floored him. When my dad died he left us enough money so we could move house and leave the worst of the debts behind us, and DH perked up. He rebuilt our old house more or less single-handed, we had DS4 and moved back there, selling the newer house to clear our back debts, and I thought the best time of our lives was just coming up. We had been through hell together and survived.

Right about then he began to behave funny again, but as I was at work all day, minding DCs all evening and developing a serious computer games fixation in the little time in between, I didn't really notice. If he was clearly unreasonable I'd tell him where he got off - because I was strong, right? The rest of the time I was quite prepared to accept that fault lies both ways and either I had done something wrong, or it wasn't wrong exactly but he didn't like it, so it was only fair to make compromises. Besides, we had 4 DCs, still all at that time financially dependent and one of them very small, and I was the breadwinner; I couldn't just up and leave. It made sense to see it through after all this time... didn't it? I knew how to stop him, I knew the trigger points, when to give in and when to get firm. And he was quite helpful with the kids these days and sometimes even made a bit of money (about a fiver in a good week, but still)...

After 23 years he was still suffering from jealousy and mistrustfulness; I really thought he should have known me better by then. Never mind, soon I'd be fat and old and nobody would fancy me. Neither would he, mind you, as he'd always said he didn't like fat people and thought old people were funny, but I wouldn't mind by then and at least I'd be spared these SILLY accusations.

My "lightbulb moment" is a longish story and this is long enough already (I've probably told it in other places a few times) - I'm not proud of it as it involved me feeling I may as well be hung for a virtual sheep as for a non-existent lamb, and had a brief internet flirtation. It was pointless in a way as it just gave me something else to cry about, and if I'd been quite myself at the time I would never have been in the least bit tempted, but it did the business - it distanced me from DH for just long enough for me to take a proper squint at our relationship from the outside. It was quite a shock.

I knew I had to divorce, but felt terribly guilty about it, both for the children and for the remains of STBXH. My wonderful friend told me to hie myself unto Mumsnet and take a look at the relationship board. At the same time my bro sent me a link to a list of emotional abuse indicators. I realised he was probably doing quite a lot of those peculiar things on purpose, and began to google personality disorders to try and work out why. That was an eye-opener too. He's definitely paranoid and almost certainly borderline, with a dose of dependency thrown in and who knows what else. The only thing I'm pretty certain he doesn't have is OCD, as he's fanatically UNtidy!

During our long-drawn-out divorce (there is nothing nastier than sharing a house with your soon-to-be-ex abuser) I confided to the GP that I felt terribly humiliated to realise I had colluded in my own abuse for over two decades. She told me of someone she knew who was a clinical psychologist, who had just realised after 12 years that her own marriage was abusive. She'd spent her working life identifying it in others and helping them through it, but couldn't see it in her own household. Now that's humiliating! And you don't get to be a clinical psychologist if you're thick.

The thing that bothered me for quite a while is that I shall probably never know how much of it he could help and how much was a result of his bundle of personality disorders, caused I believe by him being emotionally and physically abused as a child. I have to tell myself, it doesn't matter whether he is evil or just damaged, the fact is that I cannot live with it any longer. I really could not have tried harder to help him, but in the end he could only drag me down with him. I had to get out for myself first, but the DCs have followed of their own volition, once they realised he was lying to them about me and that they could not change or help him either.

Does any of that even begin to explain why I didn't "just walk"?

violet101 · 24/12/2009 10:30

If you don't understand why women get into this situation then you need to google personality disorders (NPD for example)and educate yourselves before you pass judgement.

Telling us to leave is like telling someone who is depressed to pull themselves together.
Completely pointless.

For anyone in this situation, ignore these posts. Listen to the people who do understand, not those who don't or don't want to.

KissingUnderTheMittsletoe · 24/12/2009 10:55

It is crap and you feel like you are going mad. Yes, you question your own judgement. It can happen so slowly and insidiously that in some ways you don't notice. The 'because I love you so much'.

The cold looks and stony faces. And he is probably well liked by other people so they think you are ungrateful for not having the love of a good man. When you do make a decision and it is met with body language that makes you shrink.

Because yes, writing it down might make it look so black and white but living it is like your own personal hell and it takes strength determination and a lot of support to start to break away. Especially if your confidence and self esteem was shot to pieces anyway.

It is 'getoutable', but it doesn't happen over night.

I am so sorry so many people are going through it. Read the threads about normal relationships, because that really really opens your eyes to how 'normal' relationships function and how you SHOULD be treated.

violet101 · 24/12/2009 11:07

I cannot tell you how many people we know think of my H as laid back, easy going, fun... one or two have seen the other side of him, one or two have been through it and recognised the signs, but many think I exaggerate, over react....... it really does make you question your own judgement, opinions...

But I could probably write forever about EA and some people still wouldn't get it!

That's why these forums are invaluable!

queenofdenial2009 · 24/12/2009 11:12

Annie, laughing at your comment about clinical psychologists because I used to be one. Didn't stop me spending seven years with an extremely abusive and controlling man who I too believe has a personality disorder.

A new thread about why women get into this situations/don't leave would be useful, becuase then we can use this one for supporting QNC and Forthebest.

We've had no practical advice so far, so here goes. My opinion is you both need to start making plans to leave NOW. I do not believe you should challenge your partners or stand up to them at this stage as it will escalate and make them suspicious. Others will disagree with me.

Read AboardtheAxiom's thread and also hunt down Moll Flounders'. They will give you lots of practical advice and give you different approaches depending on, and sorry a lot of it comes down to this, how much money you've got.

First things first; put Women's Aid's telephone number into your mobiles (0808 2000 247). They are there 24/7 and there is nothing you can say to them that haven't heard before and won't understand.

Keep your bag in an easily accessible place with your phone, house and car keys and some cash hidden (£20-£200, depending on what you can afford). This means that if anything happens, you can walk out the door, phone WA and never need to go back. If nothing else, this has a huge psychological effect.

Start getting important papers out the house (with a friend, family you can trust, at work) such as passports, birth certificates, bank accounts etc. Also medicines and things that are hugely important (jewellery, photos etc.). Everything else can be replaced.

Then get a WA outreach worker and start the plan - we'll help you with it. Ask WA to give you a file number, speak to your GP, tell a couple of people you can trust (there may not be anyone, you're not alone in this). Get a solicitor and keep a diary. This helps build your case if your soon to be exes start to be difficult. Mine tried the 'she's mentally unstable line' but it went nowhere because of my recent medical history (more of that later).

Hope some of that helps, keep asking us. We've got out and we know exactly what it feels like to be in your situation. It will get better.

WillyEckerslike · 24/12/2009 11:19

I second getting an escape plan going - it needn't necessarily be put into practice, but have it there just in case.

violet101 · 24/12/2009 11:24

And its very empowering!

Anniegetyourgun · 24/12/2009 11:28

Oh, everybody thought that if there was any abuse going on in my marriage, I'd have been the one doing it. Even my children thought I was the strong one, and initially when we split up, the bad one. I even feared it myself; sometimes I didn't put my foot down because I didn't want to be a bully. I believed it when he claimed I had said something hurtful because I know I have a big mouth. I bent over backwards to be kind and reasonable because I know I have the potential to be selfish and opinionated. Had he been a vicious bastard I would have fought back; instead, I was fighting myself half the time, keeping myself in my little box, because I didn't like myself very much.

On the practicalities of getting out: in addition to QoD's advice, hie thee unto the local CAB (or google Advicenet) and find out as much as possible about what your rights will be. If there is domestic abuse involved, doesn't necessarily have to be physical violence, they have special facilities to help you. They can even get you representation in court. But it all starts with getting information. Information will make you strong.

DensIdeasGroup · 24/12/2009 11:46

Write a list of everything that bothers you. Then write a list of the things you are happy about. Tell him you have done this and ask him to write his own lists as you want to discuss the items on the list. This avoids a confrontation. Remind him of what brought you together in the first place and any positive reasons why you stay together. Ask yourself if you really do want this relationship. Tell him that if he does not discuss things with you in a reasonable way, you will have to act independently. Do not be afraid.

Some friends of mine were arguing about a holiday. They then used the Six Thinking Hats system. They came to a satisfying mutual conclusion in three minutes!

violet101 · 24/12/2009 12:18

My EA H would rather have stuck pins in his eyes than right a list and discuss/listen! And it would never have been a discussion - it would have been a one sided assault on all my faults.

I take my hat off to any couple that can do that...

Sorry to be the voice of doom and gloom today - must be the time of year!

MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL YOU EA GALS (+ BOYS?) xxxx

cestlavielife · 24/12/2009 12:24

qwik - agree with the others, yes he is controlling you insidiously... and he is unliely to change.

and yes the scripts are those said by exP...

auryne et al - of course we would all leave someone who behaved like this....immediately -- BUT we dont leave because we have children with them, because finances and housing are complicated, because we think we should not break up the family - and most importantly because ABUSERS DONT ABUSE 24/7 .

they are charming, nice, especially around others, they are the "perfect father" especially in public etc,etc.

that is the crux of abusers - they dont go aorund abusing everyone, they chose their nearest and dearest to practice their subtle controlling mechanisms...it creeps up on you by stealth...

they practice the cycle of abuse, exercising charm and even remorse, "but i was only trying to help you by telling you you have put on some weight!" ....

till you get lolled into a sense of calm - then they strike again - and lead you to believe it is your fault...

our children adore them....

it really is not so simple.
if only it were.

it takes a lightbulb moment to be ready to leave, and to plan and execute that escape. they try to control especially when you leaving them - pouring on the tears ("dont elave me i cannot live without you") and apologies and emotional manipulation.

it is a very big step from hearing "you are my entire life" and receiving it as a romantic, heartfelt gesture - gosh he loves me so much!

to hearing it for what it is - "i want to control you"....you serve my purposes...

Janos · 24/12/2009 13:58

You know what, I had a controlling XP and really, it is very striking how they all seem to follow a 'script'.

  • Nagging for sex, being unbearable until I gave in if I didn't want it - CHECK
  • Restricting access to friends/family by being difficult/sulking around them - CHECK
  • Not being allowed to have a social life - CHECK
  • Launching sudden verbal attack if I appeared to be getting above myself/enjoying myself too much (without his permission) - CHECK

Ultimately you cannot stop them behaving like this, because they think they are right and that they are entitled to do it. I believe that abusive men have a fundamental, deep seaed belief that women are inferior and need to be controlled. So please don't wear yourself out emotionally trying to do this.

I'm afraid the only way to stop this is to leave the relationship. I wish you lots of strength OP. You've taken the first step in recognising what is going on.

Janos · 24/12/2009 14:10

Aurynne and Shineon.

You are both really talking out your arse and have no understanding of what it's like to be in this situation. None whatsoever.

What you are actually saying in effect to everyone here 'I'm superior to you'. Guess what? That's excatly what the abuser thinks too.

Go off and educate yourselves please. By the way, how about directing your anger at abusers instead of their victims?

RumourOfAHurricane · 24/12/2009 16:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Janos · 24/12/2009 17:20

Of course you can say what you think Shineon. Mumsnet would soon disappear if people didn't give their opinions, and that's just what I'm doing too. Perhaps I reacted a little strongly. But surely you can see that telling victims of abuse they are pathetic and partly responsible for the abuse is at best not very helpful and at worst actively damaging?

mumonthenet · 24/12/2009 18:09

You originally stated that you had two options - to show that you won't be controlled anymore or to leave. You wanted to try the first one first. Logical and a good idea.

Without knowing all the background I can't tell whether your dh is a merely a bully and a spoilt moody git or, in fact, EA.

If he is not EA then it may simply be that you have got into the habit of deferring to him, anything for a quiet life, letting him "wear the trousers".

So I suggest:

Get yourself OUT of your child mode. Think like an adult. Talk like an adult. Would you allow anyone else to speak/behave like he does? what would be your response?

Use expressions like:

Please don't talk to me like I'm your employee/ a child.
I prefer the blinds open.
I am DS's mother and I decided to give him Monster Munch.

All said calmly and coolly.

When he sulks, ignore him. If he continues to sulk, ask him (in your ADULT mode - calmly and assertively) to stop sulking.

As people have said, you need to be careful but I think you will very quickly see whether he gets the message and realises he's being a twat, or in fact whether he ups the stakes.

Take care

HansieMom · 24/12/2009 22:47

Back on page 1, where the husband insisted on sex after wife got out of shower (before her evening out)--that is one of the most chilling things I've read on mumsnet.

I hope there is more from this poster as I want ex to get his comeuppance!