What to do about angry, stressed DP? (sorry if bit long)

[hanabanana]

wanted to name change but MN not accepting new registrations today for some reason - don't out me if you know who I am.

I need tactics to cope with DPs anger. He is basically a wonderful person but always had an angry side - massive temper moments/blazing rows (shouting, hitting walls, throwing stuff around, storming out, slamming doors etc) always been present in him. It's much worse now we basically exist in a pressure cooker - have own business together in office which is part of our house, 2 DCs under 2, rural area with friends basically in London, etc. Work stresses him out a lot, he feels under masses of pressure at the moment and often says he wishes he wasn't doing what he does, but stopping isn't an option for the next year or 2 for various reasons.

He once said he would go to anger management sessions but went back on it after a huge row and now refuses to even consider it again. He says he doesn't really have a problem but the rest of the world is basically all to blame. He flies into a rage at the slightest thing and I'm not the kind of person to let him get away with being unreasonable, particularly when he gets angry at innocent others (usually unwitting mistakes by work people being a bit useless) and I just end up lecturing him which he obviously hates and then gets even angrier. But if DD1 is rude or has a tantrum, we don't let her get away with it, we try to explain why she shouldn't do that, so why is it OK for him?

I do believe that people can try to rationalise and control themselves and if they can't they should seek help, but he doesn't see it that way at all. But it makes me so miserable as it ruins what should be a really happy relationship.

I've always believed in talking things through to resolve them but he never wants to talk, when angry he just wants to be 'left alone' and somehow magically they are meant to clear up by themselves which I find infuriating as I really don't get over things unless I feel there's a genuine attempt to see where things went wrong.

I need a better way to deal with this - ideas please??

hi there, sorry to hear you're having a stressful time. I also live in a pressure cooker with my dh. We run our own business from home and have 2 small dcs. The tense atmosphere was really unbearable at times but now we've sorted things out because we just have too much to lose.

you could try (these things have all worked to some extent for me):

• refusing to speak to him until he's calm (just like you would with a toddler)
• refusing to engage, just walk out of the room if he's going off on one,
• taking the mickey / playing him at his own game / parodying his behaviour - preferably when he's not expecting it. He needs to twig that his behaviour is not right.

If all else fails try videoing him in full flood and then play it back to him and ask if he thinks that's how adults should behave (never done this because I can't work the camcorder but would love to )

thanks Endangered...

trouble is if I refuse to speak to him and he eventually calms down but pretends nothing happened, i.e. it feels like permitting him to act like a c*. At work I do just ignore him but it's really awkward as the person who works for us is now really scared of him flying off the handle if she does something a bit wrong (which obviously makes her actually do more things wrong/be more irritating)

unfortunately taking the p* makes him furious, likewise I fantasise about the video trick but it would make him totally crazy, he would probably throw the camcorder against the wall...I've tried the whole 'do you think adults behave like this' line but he hates being 'lectured' as he sees it.

sometimes it makes me so totally miserable I just want to leave but can't see a way out, have too much to lose like you say.

In these cases, I find a v v calm 'I will not be spoken to like this' and turning on your heel and leaving the room is the best tactic. It makes it clear that you will not accept the behaviour, doesn't inflame the situation, and gets you out.

I feel sorry for your employee though. I worked for a boss who went off the deep end, and it was sooo stressful

CMOT yes you are right I should try to be more calm.

but what about when he doesn't then apologise or want to talk things through? he just wants to ignore the problem and doesn't understand that it ruins everything for me.

tonight was a classic, I mentioned how he seemed to have a better day today having had a good nights sleep last night (we slept separately as I've had horrible cough etc and he was really tired) and then he made a comment about something that our employee said today that made him snap at her really rudely and stormed out, then I said 'oh but she was only trying to be nice' and we ended up having a huge row with all the wall punching etc, over whether he was right to be so horrid to her.

I do sincerely feel very sorry for you having to live like this, but am a little puzzled by your OP that he is a "wonderful man but" - where are the wonderful bits? Why does your employee put up with being bullied and harrassed by your H.

You say you are "not the sort of person to let him be unreasonable" but he IS being unreasonable so it isn't really a question of whether you "let" him or not. Sorry I don't mean to sound harsh or critical but there is something that doesn't quite stack up here and I can't work out what it is.

Do you feel you have any control in this r/ship or are you sort of tiptoing around trying to keep things on an even keel. Whichever way it is your H is behaving like a toddler and seems completely unable to regulate his emotions. Do you know what is behind this behaviour?

feeling much worse right now after another huge flare-up, DP had been working for the evening after our earlier row and I thought the time would have let him calm down so when he came back to the house I tried to start a calm conversation about what went wrong but it just ended up with more him being enraged me 'having a go at him', tears etc. Feel totally low.

NanaNina it is so hard, on the one hand I know he is really tired and stressed and very unhappy/trapped with work, he tends to blame all his anger on it but we did have rows before we started to work together so I think he's just making excuses. I just don't know what to do. I am just trying to keep things on an even keel and enjoy the many good things (wonderful DCs, lovely house, etc) and he always says he loves me and I do believe him.

But he just doesn't see how his behaviour affects me, he always blames me for having a go at him, just wants me to ignore it.

the wonderful bits about him is that he is fundamentally (when not angry etc) caring, tries (too hard, contributes to stress) to fix everything in the house, etc that is a constant ongoing DIY project, sincerely amazing dad.

He always says (when angry) this crazy thing about 'if you are just nice you get trampled on'. Can't see sense about it.

Basically has a huge problem but no willingness to acknowledge or address it. Claims that when current long-term work project ends (1.5 years time) he will quit and then everything will be OK. I don't believe it at all there will then just be another thing to blame it all on.

hanabanana

my dh has been like this. It is abuse and nothing else. It might take you a while to get your head around it.
I confronted dh about his behaviour (similar to yours) and made a stand.
I told my parents and my brother some of what was going on. My dh is now seeing a therapist and is committed to the process. It has been very hard. So hard that I am also seeing a different counsellor so that I have someone to talk about it (as well as my own issues with depression which have not been helped at all by dh).

It was only after honest discussion that I felt that we could attempt to work things out.
I talk to my counsellor every week about how things have been and it has been very helpful. When you are in a situation like ours, it can be difficult to imagine that it is completely abnormal.
It is not normal to punch walls in arguments, it is abusive.
Being a good dad is helping your children to feel secure in their home. You must realise that they are being affected by this?
It will not be ok if you just let this drift on.

Just wanted to say that anger management is not the answer.
He has to understand that he needs to change his behaviour completely.

please go to relate.

the third person in the room makes all the diference - he cannot rationalise this behaviour on front of a stranger - think about it... how can you explain to a complete stranger that your response to something your wife said was to smash things in the house.

this i think is the first step - realisation.

my dh was at one point like this. it carried on for 5 or so years - got progressively worse - but he was the best dad and a good person - or so i thought - i really did.

but a good dad doesn't act like this

a good person doesn't treat his life partner like this

i was hanging onto a myth, hanging onto the good times - which were fewer and fewer and then non existant.

we ended up not talking for long periods of time - not sulking or anything like that - just not communicating whilst in the same house.

his piss taking controlling behaviour escalated - he drank more often and more of it. he abdicated his role as a father - not being bothered to parent.

walking on eggshells was the perfect phrase - i was always thinking about his moods - even food became an issue - i wasn't cooking him enough (if i was cooking becuase he sometimes did) i didn't cook him the things he liked AND I KNEW IT apparently - and this caused a row.

by the end of this time i was stuttering when i spoke - trying to give myself time to word things in a way that wouldn't cause him to flare up in anger.

it eventually ended in a violent episode and i went to a womens shelter.

i came home under certain conditions - we really had hit the lowest of the low

Then perhaps he needs a wake-up call.

Can you go and stay with a relative for a couple of days and take the children?

Write him a note saying you'll be back when he's ready to admit there's a problem.

the thing is, he's not like this all the time. And when I say he is a good dad, he is - he isn't like this in front of our kids, I really couldn't ask for a more committed, involved sharing parent - we have split the childcare for our kids 50/50 from day 1 and continue to do so.

I think perhaps to have some counselling myself might help to sort the wheat from the chaff. Of course I know his behavious isn't 'right' or 'normal' but I need to really carefully ease him into a situation where he feels able to address the issue.

We do have lovely times together too, we go out together fairly often, had a recent wonderful holiday - it's just when he is awful it is really, really awful. He does at fundament feel bad about it but he refuses to contemplate the possibility of changing himself, the only thing he can think about is somehow trying to remove all the 'causes' of his anger/frustration/stress but doesn't see how unrealistic this is. We can make some of the stress better, with time, but not all of it.

BTW his ex GF before me (5 year rel) wanted them to go to relate and he was massively against it - but they had other issues and had really grown apart by then. He claims that all the people he knows who have gone through therapy haven't really sorted themselves out...

We are both strong people - I'm no shrinking violet and definitely speak my mind - and we do get on with things, but it just gets increasingly hard to know what to do for him, and for me.

"the thing is, he's not like this all the time. "

mine wasnt either...

abusers dont abuse all the time. violent men dont beat their wives all the time. there is always a nice phase. the people who killed their wives you read about - by and large they were the kind of people the nighbours/friends "had no idea".... evil people do not look evil they are often charm personified. they feel they are entitled.

he CAN control himself - he chooses not to.

he could go beat a cushion or take himself away fromthe situation - he chooses not to

he could go to relate /therapy - he chooses not to.

read lundy bancroft why does he do that inside the minds of angry and controlling men .

it gives many many anecdotes and examples and explains the thinking and rationale of why they act that way - some wer so close to home for me...

it is written about "abusers"

you dont think your man is abusive - but please read this book as it will give you insight to decide if he IS abusive or not.

if it is truly something he cannot control.

if is beyond his control - he really does need help or his employee will leave (maybe taking him to a tribunal for harrssment and bullying) and you will leave - eventually...

if he can control it then he truly is abusive. and he needs help...if he wishes to change.

you can start by telling him punching walls is unaaceptable behviour and tell him what you will do if he does it eg leave the house etc.

being nice 50, 60 or even 90 per cent of the time does not justify such extreme behaviour. time to make a stand.

do you really think exploding and punching walls is ok behaviour from an adult?

how do you feel when it happens? terrified?

what if one of your children comes running in and gets in the way next time he does that?

what if your child's head is there - by accident?

what damage would that fist do to a child's brain?

you go to relate , he goes to therapy, he recognizes he has a problem - or you start living apart. til he does recognize the issues.

perhaps you need a chat with his ex...to get her view...

what are the children learning from this?

hana - you say "I need to really carefully ease him into a situation where he feels able to address the issue" - can't you see that YOU are taking responsibility for HIS behaviour, and for what he can do to modify/change it. The truth is that you can't "ease him" into anything. He can only modify his behaviour by firstly accepting there is a problem and them being motivated to do something about it.

It isn't surprising that he won't accept there is a problem becuase men like this won't, because it means facing the reality and it is so much easier (and less painful) to project the blame on to someone (or soemthing) else. Often this isn't going on at a conscious level in most cases. I have seen other threads about abusive men who are stressed through work etc but nothing excuses the kind of behaviour you are describing and it seems you are "buying into" the notion that it is all about stress of work etc. He may well be stressed but then so are you, living in a situation like this.

You say he is a wonderful dad and I'm sure he is, but your children will be emotionally harmed to be living in an environment like this. You say you are no shrinking violet but I do honestly wonder if you are as strong as you believe. It's hard to accept that you are living in a situation with a controlling angry man but that is the reality regardless of the nice times sometimes. How can you enjoy the good times anyway when rage is never far away.

Sorry I am not getting at you - I just think you are not ready to openly acknowledge how bad this situation is and that again is not unusual because it is scary to admit it, but that might be the first step for you.

I agree that you could try couple counselling and of course he won't want to go because men like this underneath feel scared about what is going on and what might be "unearthed" if someone start probing beneath the surface. I think you should use your emotional strength to make it clear to your H that youhave had enough and insist that you start counselling for both of your sakes, and of course for the sake of the children.

I think I do need to see a counsellor myself to talk it through properly. I hear what you all are saying, but in many/most cases when he gets angry, he does try to leave the room - albeit in a slamming door way - and absent himself from the situation, he says I make it worse because I always want to confront him when he isn't in the right frame of mind to be confronted.

The trouble is I feel like him leaving the room and coming back later, only to then not want to talk about it at all, is somehow too permissive of the behaviour - as I think, with our toddler, if she has a tantrum, OK we may say to sit in another room till she calms down or something, but then we always try to talk it through afterwards so she understands a bit more about what has happened and why. (I'm a great believer in talking things through - and he is when it comes to the kids...!) He has a theory that with us, it is best to ease back into 'normal' gradually and let the trust etc build back up and that someohow this can happen without actually sitting down and talking it through or finding strategies to stop it in its tracks. Whereas I always want him to see the error of his ways and find it difficult to get back to 'normal' unless we go over what happened and why.

I want him to find ways that work to either recognise when something like this is coming, or when it does come, find ways to articulate what he is feeling without becoming angry straight away. I do understand that sometimes, when you talk things through, you dredge up the old feelings of hurt/anger/etc and it turns into another row, but there must be some way!

well it sounds good that he is able to take himself off. When he wants to return to 'normal' do you not think it may be that he has seem that it was silly to get angry in the first place and so there really is nothing to talk about? Just a thought.

It seems as if you want to 'control' the way he deals with the issues because it is the only way you see as working for you.

Be very careful with raking up things from the past - yes it can help but only if the person wants to figure out why they behave the way they do and actually want to change - iyswim.

Sometimes it is best just to let others deal with things in their own way.

Since h has had counselling he finds it difficult if i take myself off - he wants to talk things through.

There needs to be a time and a place to talk about this - and sometimes there is a time to just leave it.

We have both learnt that we react to things very differently and so now 'respect' each others way of dealing with this - even if we dont understand it ourselves.

I tend to stay calm at first whereas h flairs up - then after a while i will slowly get more heated whereas he has already sorted some things. It can lead to more conflict but as we have learned how we both are we give each other space.
Also some things i get very angry at and h stays cool and vice versa.

The may things is to be able to acknowlege that the others feelings matter even if we dont agree or understand them.

"ease back into 'normal' gradually and let the trust etc build back up "

how long does that take - are you talking 20 minutes or days? hours or ??/

it isnt a way to live though is it? always waiting for the next episode...

and i think the way you deal with a toddler is different to dealing with an adult. toddler/child is still learning.

the adult is supposed to be responsible for their behaviour. they should know what is right/wrong....

learning for an adult should maybe come from outside professional...third party...

but i think you seeing a counsellor yourself is a great idea.

If he can control himself in front of the children he is choosing NOT to control himself in front of you.

Fact.

HappyWoman and colditz - I think your advice rings true in some ways. Perhaps I am too controlling - I can be volatile too - but I do find it really hard to 'deal' with his rage when I feel hurt, upset, etc by it and then he refuses to acknowledge it or apologise for upsetting me. Also it can take hours if not days for things to feel remotely 'normal'. Some of that is definitely the fact that I don't feel 'closure' from an episode until something positive has been done to neutralise it - either a proper apology, talking it through, or something that shows he cares (he becomes so emotionally cold)

But I don't want to be constantly worrying about what will set him off - things that I might do, our employee, etc. He should be able to react reasonably well to most situations. You are right that he can control himself really well (rarely gets properly angry with other work clients, colleagues in other companies, etc, e.g. he will be totally calm on the phone with someone who has messed up but then get really angry about it all with me in the evening), it really is just me, sometimes his close family, people in our (and his former) workplace.

Like last night, when he said that his day had been OK apart from this comment she made (which was her trying to be helpful, but he thought it was interfering, and shouted at her and stormed out) and I said 'you should try to be a bit kinder even if it wasn't the most sensitive thing to say, she meant well' and he couldn't see my POV at all and got really angry that I was 'defending' her. And got furious with me for suggesting that she even meant well (there is a weird conspiracy theorist 'the world is all against me' tendency that comes out in his rages). It would be funny if it wasn't so scary how he gets.

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts - sometimes it is so hard to think through on your own - and none of my close friends are really in our situation (we are the 1st to move out of London, have kids, set up a business etc) so they don't really get it. Sorry a bit disjointed - am at work and super busy so not much time to think/post. As you can prob tell I vary between thinking 'oh he is definitely borderline abusive' and 'I just don't know how to handle it very well myself' and it's hard to know where the line is.

"if it wasn't so scary how he gets."

honestly do you think it is ok to be scared by him so long as he apologises and talks it through with you afterwards?

you are not talking about one off - you are talking about regular occurences when you in your own words are "scared"

that is no way to live....i know, have been there...

you are justifying him, saying it is ok to behave this way if he apologises afterwards?

if he apologised properly afterwards it would be ok?

(he ISNT a toddler having a tantrum because they havent learned yet...)

it still doesnt make it ok.

no apology can make it ok.

you would just be buying into the cycle of abuse - rage, apologies, calm phase, smiles and roses...til it starts again...
www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/Abuser/dynamics.htm

the cycle must be broken...

it shouldnt happen. full stop.

"constantly worrying about what will set him off " - walking on eggshells, adapting your behaviour to avoid the potential rage - he is a controllling bully. read lundy bancroft...

is no way to live.

i did that too for years, down to trying to make sure i bought the right colour washing up liquid...now i buy a range off diff colours and it feels good..

You do realise, don't you, that it is in fact NOT your responsibility to keep his temper for him? It's not up to you to 'handle' him - he's not 2. He has demonstrated that he is quite capable of handling himself and is choosing not to.

I can't say I advise this, but here is something interesting you might want to consider.

My ex spent money like water, and would never account for it. This was a deal breaker as far as I was concerned. he didn't pay the rent etc.

Well, shortly before we split up, he asked me for money and I told him I didn't have any (I lied for the first time, instead of saying no and causing a row)

He exploded (just like I used to when he claimed to have spent all his money) and asked me where it had gone. And I told him "I don't know".

This was what he did to me all the time, whenever I asked him for money for basics, he wouldn't have any, and when asked about it he would lie, or say "I don't know". And when I turned it around on him, he was absolutely flummoxed.

So in essence, what I am saying is - could you get the kids out of the way then explode right back at him? Break some plates, throw some breakables, scream some abuse, fling some accusations?

Maybe, just maybe, it would show him what it is like living with him?

And, brutally, if he loses it and hits you, at least you know what you're dealing with.

no of course I don't think it is OK to be scared so long as he apologises afterwards. though I should add he hasn't once laid a finger on me in any way (apart from nicely!)

Of course I want him to not lose his temper in the first place but I need to get to the bottom of how the cycle starts and what we BOTH do to exacerbate it. That's why I think some of HappyWoman's thoughts are right.

He isn't obsessive about anything like washing up liquid colour - if he was like that we would have parted company long ago! (though as he is aesthetic by profession he is fussy about whether things are well designed...) he isn't at all jealous (even when I went to live in another country for a year) and in some ways his problem is that he cares too much about every single thing that he is involved with (work, kids, the endless repairs that need to be done to our house, sorting out the garden, the extension we want to build, planning our perfect life) that he just piles stress onto himself, never feels he is making headway or doing a good enough job of any of it (he is a total perfectionist).

I'm not saying he should relieve the stress by yelling and hitting walls but sometimes I also just want to cry and bury my head in the sand at how much there is to do. (that is my kind of 'wrong' reaction to stress)

well anyway...if I was to find a counsellor for myself what is the best way? through GP?

going off to cry and bury your head probably involves only you....unless you make a point of making it public

yelling and hitting walls says "look at me! I am angry and i am letting you know so " (and to me is implied threat - today is the wall - next time could be you...and tehre is always the risk of accidental injury)

GP first port of call there may be a wait list - look up local places, some may do free or reduced costs