DH is a old fashioned male chauvanistic pig...but he is also kind, caring and a good father. How do I deal with this?

[oneplusone]

DH is generally a kind, caring, easygoing, reasonable kinda guy. He has had a lot to deal with due to me trying to sort myself out after a lot of buried and forgotten memories of childhood abuse were triggered for me after having my DC's. We are through the worst of it now and have somehow managed to stay together despite the nightmare that has been our lives over the last few years.

So he is a decent man at heart. BUT he has some extremely old fashioned and chauvanistic views which really bother me. Eg. If I get a bit aggressive during an argument he thinks it's not feminine. I do have anger management issues due to my childhood but even so, i all i ever do is sometimes shout a bit at him and fight my corner. He seems to think women are always all sweetness and light and never get angry and if they do it's not feminine.

The other thing that he said that has really annoyed me is that i mentioned a while ago that i would love to have my own room in the house, a bit like his office. We don't have the space anyway so i know it would never happen, but i think he is so lucky to have a really lovely office at the top of our house where he can go and read, watch tv, work, in peace and quiet, away from the DC's. I'm a SAHM so don't need an office as such, but i would in an idea world, love to have my own little room, where i could read and just get away from everyone for a while, get some peace and quite to do what i want. And he thinks again, that is not feminine! As if for some reason women don't need time and space for themselves.

I know where he gets his views from, his parents are very traditional, dad does NOTHING around the house, mum does it all etc. But DH is, I thought intelligent enough to realise he and I are not living in the 1950's, that times have changed and moved on and whilst I am not a career woman, i am happy mostly to be a fulll time SAHM, nor am i a 50's style housewife.

Am I the only one to be married to a relic from the 1950's, who at the same time works in developing the latest IT solutions for a living?

I blame his mother...

Get a job.

dittany I totally agree with you here: "Feminist ideas have permeated society and many people have accepted them. Women are human too and have the same rights and needs as men." I know this, you know this and even DH knows this is true but I think he cannot accept it. He was born in the wrong decade, and I have said this to him and he agreed, if only in a joky way.

The thing is it's not all cut and dried. He is not totally like his dad who never changed nappies, got up at night etc, he does all of that. But then again, he does see all those as helping me with my job. I do always pull him up on it if he says he is helping me and tell him he is not the lodger or a passer by who is helping out with the DC's, he is actually the father/other parent. But i can tell it just doesn't sink in and he sees it as my job.

Moondog, I do think my getting a job would definately redress the balance in my household. But the trouble is I don't want to get a job as I want to be there for my DC's, at least until the younger one is full time at school which is not for another 18 months.

Overall, DH is not a bad husband or parent, I could do much worse, so perhaps I will just have to tolerate his old fashioned views. He has tolerated a lot from me so perhaps it's not that bad.

erm.... moondog. What?

Does your DH actually work from home? If he does then I think it's entirely reasonable that he has an office.

My DP works from home and has an office that is off limits to me and to any visiting children - it's got all sorts of files and important computery stuff in it.

He doesn't lock the door or anything but it is very much his space. I don't work from home so I don't have an office.

We'd both love to have what we call a 'cosy' ie a private room each for pottering, telly etc but like most couples we'd have to win the lottery first.

I'm a raging feminist and I think that your DH pulling you up for your lack of femininity in an argument is pathetic, but the room of one's own is a fantasy anyway so why even discuss it? It's only an issue if and when you have a house big enough to warrant divvying off spare rooms.

"Feminine." Hmmm.

i would counter his 'not feminine' comments with your size-cock comments. otherwise fight for the THINGS you want rather than the ideal and hope that slowly the ideal will become a way of thinking.

ie. get your own space, whatever he thinks. shout if you get angry (within reason) regardless of whether he thinks it's unfeminine. don't accept his comments anymore.

but i suspect this is what you're already doing.

in which case, you need to continue and hope that over time, like with a toddler, it will eventually sink in and he will grow up.

I wouldn't want to live with anyone who shouts and gets angry when they are upset. If they can't keep their voice down then I'd rather they waited until they could.
Some people seem to enjoy shouting at each other. I hate being shouted at and think it's a horrid bullying way to treat anyone. It's not unfeminine, it's just rude and nasty. I don't shout at people at work and I don't shout at people at home.
No-one in our house has a study.

I agree that shouting is not good behaviour in anyone, male or female, but we're both human and sometime crack under the pressure so we both very ocasionnally shout when we're angry/upset.

DH does work from home quite a bit and his office is full of computers etc and I wouldn't want to go in there. Even if me having my own little room will be unlikely to ever happen unless we win the lottery, i still object to his idea that the mere wanting of such a room is unfeminine or is me competing with him in some way.

I have to say that he has got worse since he started a new job around 2 years ago. Admittedly it is a very good job, very well pain etc, and i think the money and status has gone to his head as he wasn't always like this, well not this bad. I have pointed this out to him but of course he denies it, but i can see the change in him. Add to that my being a SAHM, no wonder in his mind he feels far superior and more important than me.

I actually cannot be bothered with trying to change his attitude, but i will always speak out if i think he is being MCPiggy. But things are not as bad as the impression i might have given by my posts. We have been through a lot together and he has stuck by me when a lesser man would have walked out so that is why i am willing to tolerate his more unappealing traits.

well paid of course

Like others have said, the 'unfeminine' business is an insulting load of wank. Men do not have some sort of 'license' to be angry that women don't have . I grew up with the idea that women aren't allowed to get angry and it was unrealistic and unhelpful and harmful.

Yes, like you say, it's great to stay calm and kind and avoid shouting if you can. Both of you. But to think getting shouty is any more acceptable for one of you than the other based on gender, grrrrrr. Not on. Suggest you tell him how you feel about his comments. Calmly but dead seriously. It's all you can do.

And on the space of your own issue... well I couldn't empathise more but I guess you have to let go of the need for validation from him. Just focus on your perfectly reasonable crusade to get your needs met. The fact that you you need it is enough for you to try and make it happen in any way you can. The 'do not disturb' sign. Buggering off out somewhere. Whatever is best for you. Don't know about you, but sometimes it's DH's demands which one needs to be released from as much as DCs. Don't expect him to understand, but do try to come to an agreement that results in some sort of commitment from him that he will be in charge when you have your break.

roundwindow, thanks for your post and happy that you understand where I'm coming from.

I totally agree with you here:"but sometimes it's DH's demands which one needs to be released from as much as DCs." Exactly. After a non-stop, tiring, draining and demanding day with 2 young DC's on my own, I do not need or want DH making demands of me as well, in the evenings or at weekends. I fully understand he has his needs too but I rate his needs as equal in importance to mine, whereas the DC's usually take priority.

Had a bit of a chat today with him and said I was not happy about his sexist views. He tried to deny it by saying he did the washing up and changed nappies etc, but of course those things do not mean he doesn't have other sexist views. I think with him it will be a case of standing my ground and like a child, at some point he will realise he is not going to get his own way and he will have to concede to my way of thinking. And after 6 years as a full time SAHM I have had loads of practise in standing my ground until one of the DC's realises there is no other option but to do as I ask.

Why isn't it feminine to shout?
What are supposed to do? Simper?

Hi oneplusone,
It is hard to put up with this, isn't it?

My dh's dad is a dyed in the wool chauvanist hog,
####snarl#### ,
so dh has very strong tendencies that surface inspite of years of sensitivity training as a civil servant.

When dh is at home and sees me arriving in the minivan, he will stand in the garage and tap the vehicle when I am to stop. Not a big deal, but the degradation that I can't park it is there. (Not to mention how many friggin' times I park it when he isn't there!!) Yesterday (literally), he was there and without making eye contact, I mouthed the words "I can park it". He must have seen it, because he went inside. No other comment.

Yes I do realize that I do have self-esteem issues so I am sensitive to put downs. (But isn't or shouldn't everyone be sensitive to put downs?)

I did say at one point, and I may be repeating myself here, that "I blamed my Middle Sister for degrading me so much, but that he has put me down his fair share". He had more self awareness of his treatment of me after I said that.

I am more prone to speak up, now that I am working on myself. If I am dismissed, I will now say-matter of factly-, "So, just shut me up!"

We don't shout here. I even stopped shouting at the children several years ago. There is just no real use for it-no possible positive outcome, iykwim. (I confess to exceptions regarding teenage dd's treatment of her toddler sister -and she wonders why toddler prefers her db. )

But I know the reflexive urge to shout when one is frustrated out of ones mind and when the anger spikes, so does the volume.

You need to find a comment that you can say (like a code signal) that will let him know he has crossed the line and you are disconnecting because of his unacceptable behavior. Mine is "Rude Beast". It isn't vulgar, but it gets to the point.

Neanderthal man sometimes can be trained, sometimes not.

If not, I think the best thing you can do is stop investing so much of your emotional integrity in interactions with him (not him directly-just the interactions with him). This is nearing a threshold of erosion of respect for him so try not to let it fester, and snowball into something big-like losing all respect for him. An incident is an incident, when it is over it is history, done, let it go.

But if there is a recurring example, like parking the minivan- bide your time and think of a solution. I may also choose to leave the van on the driveway -and suggest it needs washing.

tmsb, thank you and you make so much sense.

"Yes I do realize that I do have self-esteem issues so I am sensitive to put downs." Me too, perhaps a bit over sensetive to put downs, but then I have self awareness about this and feel i am able to filter out put downs about which I am being oversensetive.

"I blamed my Middle Sister for degrading me so much, but that he has put me down his fair share". Totally agree with you here (although in my case the put downs were by my parents and their example has been followed faithfully by my sisters). DH does not accept at all that he has also done his fair share of putting me down. Every time I point out a put down by him he claims he was pprovoked by me ie it always becomes my fault, he rarely if ever takes responsibility for his actions or words.

"nearing a threshold of erosion of respect for him " You are spot on, I am worried that I am nearing the point of losing all respect for him.

Like you, I am also far more able and willing to speak up for myself now that i have been working on myself. The trouble is he has no idea that the work on myself has resulted in creating self esteem and self respect and self confidence where before there was none and he thinks I have suddenly turned into a raging feminist! I find it hilarious! But seriously, I do think that he married me because his subconsious radar sensed i was a pushover/doormat which 9 years ago I certainly was. Although i put on a great act of looking and acting confident which his conscious mind saw as even now he cannot comprehend when i tell him for much of the past 9 years i had huge self confidence and self esteem issues. But I am a different person now, and he is certainly finding it very hard to bully me, bulldoze me into doing what he wants. He needs to, in his own mind, adjust to the 'new me' and adjust his behaviour, but he is very rigid in his ways and very very slow to adapt to change so it might literally take years for him to adjust. But it will be him who does the adjusting as I am certainly not going back to the way i was, i couldn't even if i wanted to.

Sorry, bit of a ramble there, but I hope, tmsb you will understand where i'm coming from.

Well, I work in IT and quite a lot of the men are sexist tossers.
I remember when I was an engineer a bloke said to me "a lady engineer is a contradiction in terms". I told him he was a git. I expect he found that quite "unfeminine".

What is your husband's definition of "feminine"? Becuase it sounds like he equates "feminine" with "not contradicting a man" or "not having a point of view" or at least, not having a poiunt of view he has to take account of...

I think he is a decent man...as long as he gets his own way.

You are a person and entitled to state your views. Lots of men like to have "time off" from their family...hence the "man in shed" culture where men go to avoid their spouses.

Perhaps he is scared you might develop a personality that doesn't pander to him.

I have a conservatory where I escpae to with all my plants and I sit and read.

I really dislike the view that somehow women are totally defined by their availability to do things for their family (i.e. are only defined in relation to doing things for others) but men can be defined as having interests and their own space and identity.

miggsie, do you know my DH? You certainly sound like you do.

"he equates "feminine" with "not contradicting a man" or "not having a point of view" or at least, not having a poiunt of view he has to take account of..." YES

"I think he is a decent man...as long as he gets his own way." TOTALLY

"Perhaps he is scared you might develop a personality that doesn't pander to him." DEFINATELY SCARED

"the view that somehow women are totally defined by their availability to do things for their family" THAT'S HIM AGAIN

Do you have any suggestions on how to sort him out?! How do you know his personality type so well? Do you know somebody like this? Sorry to be so nosy, but I immediately felt from your post that you totally 'get' my DH and also my pov.

I think at the heart of DH's views/personality lies a deep insecurity of which he himself is unaware and will never allow himself to think about or face up to. He is the epitome of the 'grandiose' personality as described in Alice Miller's book The Drama of the Gifted Child, which I have been urging him to read.

It is his deep rooted insecurities about himself which are subconsciously driving his put downs of me, belittling of me, disrespect of me and my opinions. Because his subconscious mind is driving him, he is not aware of how he comes across to me and in his conscious mind he can completely rationalise and justify his behaviour and to himself at least, see it as reasonable and acceptable. It is very hard to get through to somebody who has so little or no self awareness or insight, in fact I would say it's impossible. tmsb again i hope you might know where I'm coming from on this one.

My dh does have a complex IT job, but fortunately for me, he does (have to ) work with several women in his group.

You have changed, oneplusone. Don't take this the wrong way but as a result of your journey of surviving/recovery/healing you are more grown up. Your dh probably doesn't want to grow up himself-thus the take no responsibility strategy.

"Oh, grow up" might be your go-to phrase.

A thought just occured to me that perhaps his deep rooted insecurity is actually a fear of me, and he therefore feels a need to put me down and try and keep me in my place before i can control/dominate him. He wants to damage my self confidence and self esteem so i feel too weak to stand up to him and too scared to go against his wishes and too unconfident to voice and insist upon my needs being given equal priority with his.

tmsb, thank you again and i don't take the growing up comment badly at all, in fact i take it as a compliment! Proof that i have changed, that it's not just in my mind, that I come across differently to the outside world.

And i have actually used the "Oh grow up" phrase with him! Perhaps it could indeed be my 'go-to' phrase as you say.

And DH is also in complex IT and recently he is constantly being head hunted and he knows he could easily walk into an even better paid job than the one he is in now and i do think it has all gone totally to his head.

That's a scary thought oneplusone - how do you feel about that?

sounds like you have been through a lot together and supported each other...also sounds like you both have communication problems and need some changes in the relationship...but actually do sound as though you have a lot of good things going for you as a couple

why not have some counselling to learn to communicate about these issues more constructively with each other?

x-post, oneplusone.
I edited my previous post-the idea that these mannerisms of behavior are ingrained and therefore you shouldn't take this treatment so personally. He'd talk to a tree the same way. It is no excuse, but knowing that might make it hurt less, a very little less perhaps.

I edited it because this is a worse situation than him just being chauvanistic because he is chauvanistic. This is him not seeing you as a viable, independent person. It is rather Narcissistic-that is very powerful assessment, but it is only a trait-does not mean he is narcissistic. Do you feel like you are a 2 dimensional cut out to be a prop in his life? Then you might spend some time reading up on NPD.

Do your kids watch the show "Wonder Pets"? Ollie the rabbit comes on occasionally. He is a narcissist! His "team members" are a squeeky toy and a rock-they can't say a thing. It is all about Ollie and his very selfish, narrowminded point of view. The other Wonder Pets are all singing "team work" and proceed to bail his ass out of the mess he's made.

I have found contentment with my dh because I feel like I am on his team. Our whole family is on the same team (teenage dd testing the limits these days ).

He is the captain of the ship, but as long as he realizes that the Queen is on board, everything will ok. I say he is in charge, he says "if mamma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy" ("ain't" being part of the original southern slang ). That comment is a little bit derogatory, but the point is that he recognizes that happy and me are connected and it is valid. Of course I do not make everyone (or anyone!) miserable if I'm not happy.

What you describe, his belittling you to compensate for some deficiency in himself, is what I'd expect from a man who is vertically challenged. That is a sweeping generalization, I know, and not really fair , but 99 out of 100 times-it is true. So is your dh a short guy?

Fyi, mine is not-he is six foot one. He is more of the Conan the Barbarian chauvanism rather than the "I have to cut you down so I can feel better about myself" type.