DH is a old fashioned male chauvanistic pig...but he is also kind, caring and a good father. How do I deal with this?

[oneplusone]

DH is generally a kind, caring, easygoing, reasonable kinda guy. He has had a lot to deal with due to me trying to sort myself out after a lot of buried and forgotten memories of childhood abuse were triggered for me after having my DC's. We are through the worst of it now and have somehow managed to stay together despite the nightmare that has been our lives over the last few years.

So he is a decent man at heart. BUT he has some extremely old fashioned and chauvanistic views which really bother me. Eg. If I get a bit aggressive during an argument he thinks it's not feminine. I do have anger management issues due to my childhood but even so, i all i ever do is sometimes shout a bit at him and fight my corner. He seems to think women are always all sweetness and light and never get angry and if they do it's not feminine.

The other thing that he said that has really annoyed me is that i mentioned a while ago that i would love to have my own room in the house, a bit like his office. We don't have the space anyway so i know it would never happen, but i think he is so lucky to have a really lovely office at the top of our house where he can go and read, watch tv, work, in peace and quiet, away from the DC's. I'm a SAHM so don't need an office as such, but i would in an idea world, love to have my own little room, where i could read and just get away from everyone for a while, get some peace and quite to do what i want. And he thinks again, that is not feminine! As if for some reason women don't need time and space for themselves.

I know where he gets his views from, his parents are very traditional, dad does NOTHING around the house, mum does it all etc. But DH is, I thought intelligent enough to realise he and I are not living in the 1950's, that times have changed and moved on and whilst I am not a career woman, i am happy mostly to be a fulll time SAHM, nor am i a 50's style housewife.

Am I the only one to be married to a relic from the 1950's, who at the same time works in developing the latest IT solutions for a living?

[oneplusone]

hottiebear, thank you for your very thought provoking post. As always, with me, the problems always go a lot deeper than it first appears. I have realised that his comments about me lacking femininity in DH's eyes, because of the way I go about doing certain things, actually tapped into a deep insecurity I have had for years. It originates in childhood and my abusive father. Because of him, and his incessant verbal attacks on me since i was a young child, I know I became outwardly very tough and aggressive with a 'don't care, nothing can hurt me' demeanour. Unfortunately, this childhood survival mechanism became ingrained, I became that tough, aggressive person in situations where i felt under threat, when actually it's not the real me at all, i had to become that person in order to defend myself against my dad.

I continued that type of behaviour with DH almost without realising as it was so ingrained in me and I realise now that it is because of this type of behaviour that DH has felt I do not act in a feminine way in certain situations. For many years whilst growing up I used to notice at an almost subconscious level, that I was different from other girls and that people treated me differently from my friends. Not in an obvious way, as I looked like any other girl and i tried to act like a typical girl, but deep down inside i could see that somehow i was different. All those years I had no idea why or even how I was different but i realise now that because of my abusive father and the tough outer shell i had developed to protect myself from his aggression and abuse, i was giving off a 'keep your distance' vibe to other people, and without realising it, i think i came across as prickly, tough and aggressive to other people, ie probably like a tough young teenage boy. My dress sense even became boyish as opposed to girly.

So, in my long winded way, i guess I am saying that when DH pointed out that I came across as unfeminine ie masculine in some ways, he tapped into a deep seated, long insecurity i had always had about myself, without realising. If I was completely secure in myself, about who i was and my feminity, i doubt if any comments by DH or anybody else would affect me so much.

All of the above is one of the issues i have with DH. But the others, eg. about him thinking i should not have an opinion that contradicts his or if i have i should not voice it, relate to his insecurities I imagine.

miggsie, thank you for your post and i have actually started using your line "That's a load of rubbish" to DH when i think it is warranted and like you said, it seems to work like magic! He is stopped in his tracks and even he is not silly enough to try and press his point as he knows himself it is a load of rubbish. The difference is that before i had worked on myself, i simply did not have the confidence in myself and my own opinions to dare to tell DH that what he was putting forward was rubbish but I am gaining in self confidence all the time and it is manifesting in my ability to now tell DH when i think he is talking a load of rubbish.

I never thought when i started this thread that this issue would be so deep rooted, but i should have known really, as all my other issues of whatever nature seem to originate in my problem childhood.

[Miggsie]

Ah, you see...I worked in engineering, then IT for the last 20 years and as jobs they are a tad male dominated and I think, as a strident independent female, that I have clashed with this type of man SO MANY TIMES.

I can recognise these men just from emails now, I'm afraid they are of a type. And they are in IT becasue they like conrolling stuff and a computer always does as it is told and never ever challenges them or answers tham back or makes them think at all and certainly never challenges them on an emotional level. A lot of socially and emotionally challenged men are in IT becuase it is a profession where emotional intelligence is not a requirement and you can get away with very little "face to face" stuff due to emails and instant messaging.

From my long experience of these types they tend to suffer from a complete fear of emotion, and thus women, who of course, are a bit emotional and therefore, in their eyes, incomprehensible and scary. They are also the type who just want to "fix" you, so any issue is your problem, and, if it does not affect them, it is totally incomprehensible to them, empathy not being their strong point.

Whenever I have worked with such men I have just been direct and to the point, don't plead, or cajole or ask nicely, just plain statements: "I am doing X, you need to do Y", "to accomplish this you need to X".
Amazingly, my standard "that's a load of rubbish" statement which I often use in meetings does actually work as they are so shocked they go away like little baa-lambs.

I once worked for a man like this, and the only answer was to leave and get another job as he wanted to completely control my work life which drove me nuts.

Thus the advice I can give you is: take emotion out of the equation as much as possible.
Write down a chart of all the household stuff and how much (in %) you do compared to him. Present it to him as something that needs to be solved, sort of together, but possibly his bright idea first (ego soothing). This sort of problem approach will appeal to his managing nature.

If he has changed since he was promoted it is probably because he has moved into a different set of cultural norms. My company next layer up is very male dominated and I have refused promotion as I don't want that kind of hassle (I am disabled now, I think if I did not have this condition I would have gone for it).

As soon as the "unfeminine" word appears, challenge him in a quiet way. Ask what this means. How is he being masculine to your feminine? Practise not shouting, but saying things calmly like "and how did you decide that?" and "in what way?" when he starts stating his views.

I think he does have deep rooted fear and anxiety which has manifested in very set views. Going outside these views will whizz right out of his comfort zone, so he probably won't be able to have very long talks to begin with.

His mindset will also be strange to you...I remember the most sexist bloke ever in the engineering lab, he referred to one of the women as "it" for instance but if he started on me I told him to get stuffed. One day, after a year or so, he said "you are ok" and so I said "but you hate women" and he replied "you are not a woman, you are a honorary man". This was the only way he could acknowledge his having a woman as a friend, and maddeningly illogical though this view was, it was the way he coped with liking me when his "world view" was that "all women are pains in the arse" (which he said often).

Another way to deal with men like this is make them think it's their idea, even though it is yours. Although I'm too direct to use this technique my friend (a secretary) did it to her boss for years. This way she was never a threat to his ego (which was huge).

Also, it has to be small steps and an evolution rather than revolution approach. He will have to shift how he thinks which is hard work, and he has to acknowledge his behaviour is contributing to the situation and it is not all your "fault". His knee jerk reaction to you getting upset will be "what is wrong with her?", he won't consider that he would have contributed to your unhappiness.

And yes, stand your ground, quietly and calmly and just grind him down with logic and reasoning. At the moment you live in your house, but he is acting like a visitor, and he will need time to work through that.

[hottiebear]

Hi Oneplusone,

I had a few questions that you might want to think about.

"He equates "feminine" with "not contradicting a man" or "not having a point of view" or at least, not having a point of view he has to take account of..." YES

So he doesn't think he has to take account of your point of view. But he is not the judge and jury about your point of view, you don't need him to validate it for you. You know your point of view is valid, just as much as his is. So what if he says you are unfeminine? And why does he have the sole right in dictating what is feminine and what is not?

What happens when he says this to you? Do you feel belittled? Do you back down and stop fighting your corner? Do you think it is just a distraction he uses to get you to do just that? If so, what would happen if you just ignored it? If you don't argue and don't engage with this argument about whether shouting is unfeminine or not, and just keep on with whatever you were shouting about- which is the real issue.

"I think he is a decent man...as long as he gets his own way." TOTALLY

So what happens when he doesn't? Does he always get his own way?

"Perhaps he is scared you might develop a personality that doesn't pander to him." DEFINATELY SCARED

So he is scared that he might not get his way all the time. Again, what happens when he doesn't? Is his behaviour so bad that you can't live with it and have to give in? Or is it a bit unpleasant but something you feel able to stand your ground about?

"the view that somehow women are totally defined by their availability to do things for their family" THAT'S HIM AGAIN

But that is his view, not yours. You can reject his definition of you. Easier said than done when you love and respect the person that is defining you, but if you let him define you then you lose your sense of self and can become a shell of a person, totally dependent on someone else for your sense of self. Try and be clear in yourself that this is only his opinion, it is not fact. Only you know who you really are and what you're really like.

When you start to realise that the man you thought was great actually has dubious views about women, needs to put you down because you are threatening these views, and therefore his authority to impose his views as the truth, needs to get his own way all the time and spits the dummy out when he doesn't, thinks he is better than you and can't even entertain your point of view, then it is very difficult to retain respect for him, however kind and caring he might be.

It sounds like this might be the problem for you? And also for him, I imagine that he would find it very difficult to comprehend that you might have lost respect for him, because I'm sure he sees your respect for him as a given, based on his gender and role, rather than about how he conducts himself.

[toomanystuffedbears]

x-post, oneplusone.
I edited my previous post-the idea that these mannerisms of behavior are ingrained and therefore you shouldn't take this treatment so personally. He'd talk to a tree the same way. It is no excuse, but knowing that might make it hurt less, a very little less perhaps.

I edited it because this is a worse situation than him just being chauvanistic because he is chauvanistic. This is him not seeing you as a viable, independent person. It is rather Narcissistic-that is very powerful assessment, but it is only a trait-does not mean he is narcissistic. Do you feel like you are a 2 dimensional cut out to be a prop in his life? Then you might spend some time reading up on NPD.

Do your kids watch the show "Wonder Pets"? Ollie the rabbit comes on occasionally. He is a narcissist! His "team members" are a squeeky toy and a rock-they can't say a thing. It is all about Ollie and his very selfish, narrowminded point of view. The other Wonder Pets are all singing "team work" and proceed to bail his ass out of the mess he's made.

I have found contentment with my dh because I feel like I am on his team. Our whole family is on the same team (teenage dd testing the limits these days ).

He is the captain of the ship, but as long as he realizes that the Queen is on board, everything will ok. I say he is in charge, he says "if mamma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy" ("ain't" being part of the original southern slang ). That comment is a little bit derogatory, but the point is that he recognizes that happy and me are connected and it is valid. Of course I do not make everyone (or anyone!) miserable if I'm not happy.

What you describe, his belittling you to compensate for some deficiency in himself, is what I'd expect from a man who is vertically challenged. That is a sweeping generalization, I know, and not really fair , but 99 out of 100 times-it is true. So is your dh a short guy?

Fyi, mine is not-he is six foot one. He is more of the Conan the Barbarian chauvanism rather than the "I have to cut you down so I can feel better about myself" type.

[Podrick]

sounds like you have been through a lot together and supported each other...also sounds like you both have communication problems and need some changes in the relationship...but actually do sound as though you have a lot of good things going for you as a couple

why not have some counselling to learn to communicate about these issues more constructively with each other?

[CrackWhoretoPaulDacre]

That's a scary thought oneplusone - how do you feel about that?

[oneplusone]

tmsb, thank you again and i don't take the growing up comment badly at all, in fact i take it as a compliment! Proof that i have changed, that it's not just in my mind, that I come across differently to the outside world.

And i have actually used the "Oh grow up" phrase with him! Perhaps it could indeed be my 'go-to' phrase as you say.

And DH is also in complex IT and recently he is constantly being head hunted and he knows he could easily walk into an even better paid job than the one he is in now and i do think it has all gone totally to his head.

[oneplusone]

A thought just occured to me that perhaps his deep rooted insecurity is actually a fear of me, and he therefore feels a need to put me down and try and keep me in my place before i can control/dominate him. He wants to damage my self confidence and self esteem so i feel too weak to stand up to him and too scared to go against his wishes and too unconfident to voice and insist upon my needs being given equal priority with his.

[toomanystuffedbears]

My dh does have a complex IT job, but fortunately for me, he does (have to ) work with several women in his group.

You have changed, oneplusone. Don't take this the wrong way but as a result of your journey of surviving/recovery/healing you are more grown up. Your dh probably doesn't want to grow up himself-thus the take no responsibility strategy.

"Oh, grow up" might be your go-to phrase.

[oneplusone]

I think at the heart of DH's views/personality lies a deep insecurity of which he himself is unaware and will never allow himself to think about or face up to. He is the epitome of the 'grandiose' personality as described in Alice Miller's book The Drama of the Gifted Child, which I have been urging him to read.

It is his deep rooted insecurities about himself which are subconsciously driving his put downs of me, belittling of me, disrespect of me and my opinions. Because his subconscious mind is driving him, he is not aware of how he comes across to me and in his conscious mind he can completely rationalise and justify his behaviour and to himself at least, see it as reasonable and acceptable. It is very hard to get through to somebody who has so little or no self awareness or insight, in fact I would say it's impossible. tmsb again i hope you might know where I'm coming from on this one.

[oneplusone]

miggsie, do you know my DH? You certainly sound like you do.

"he equates "feminine" with "not contradicting a man" or "not having a point of view" or at least, not having a poiunt of view he has to take account of..." YES

"I think he is a decent man...as long as he gets his own way." TOTALLY

"Perhaps he is scared you might develop a personality that doesn't pander to him." DEFINATELY SCARED

"the view that somehow women are totally defined by their availability to do things for their family" THAT'S HIM AGAIN

Do you have any suggestions on how to sort him out?! How do you know his personality type so well? Do you know somebody like this? Sorry to be so nosy, but I immediately felt from your post that you totally 'get' my DH and also my pov.

[Miggsie]

Well, I work in IT and quite a lot of the men are sexist tossers.
I remember when I was an engineer a bloke said to me "a lady engineer is a contradiction in terms". I told him he was a git. I expect he found that quite "unfeminine".

What is your husband's definition of "feminine"? Becuase it sounds like he equates "feminine" with "not contradicting a man" or "not having a point of view" or at least, not having a poiunt of view he has to take account of...

I think he is a decent man...as long as he gets his own way.

You are a person and entitled to state your views. Lots of men like to have "time off" from their family...hence the "man in shed" culture where men go to avoid their spouses.

Perhaps he is scared you might develop a personality that doesn't pander to him.

I have a conservatory where I escpae to with all my plants and I sit and read.

I really dislike the view that somehow women are totally defined by their availability to do things for their family (i.e. are only defined in relation to doing things for others) but men can be defined as having interests and their own space and identity.

[oneplusone]

tmsb, thank you and you make so much sense.

"Yes I do realize that I do have self-esteem issues so I am sensitive to put downs." Me too, perhaps a bit over sensetive to put downs, but then I have self awareness about this and feel i am able to filter out put downs about which I am being oversensetive.

"I blamed my Middle Sister for degrading me so much, but that he has put me down his fair share". Totally agree with you here (although in my case the put downs were by my parents and their example has been followed faithfully by my sisters). DH does not accept at all that he has also done his fair share of putting me down. Every time I point out a put down by him he claims he was pprovoked by me ie it always becomes my fault, he rarely if ever takes responsibility for his actions or words.

"nearing a threshold of erosion of respect for him " You are spot on, I am worried that I am nearing the point of losing all respect for him.

Like you, I am also far more able and willing to speak up for myself now that i have been working on myself. The trouble is he has no idea that the work on myself has resulted in creating self esteem and self respect and self confidence where before there was none and he thinks I have suddenly turned into a raging feminist! I find it hilarious! But seriously, I do think that he married me because his subconsious radar sensed i was a pushover/doormat which 9 years ago I certainly was. Although i put on a great act of looking and acting confident which his conscious mind saw as even now he cannot comprehend when i tell him for much of the past 9 years i had huge self confidence and self esteem issues. But I am a different person now, and he is certainly finding it very hard to bully me, bulldoze me into doing what he wants. He needs to, in his own mind, adjust to the 'new me' and adjust his behaviour, but he is very rigid in his ways and very very slow to adapt to change so it might literally take years for him to adjust. But it will be him who does the adjusting as I am certainly not going back to the way i was, i couldn't even if i wanted to.

Sorry, bit of a ramble there, but I hope, tmsb you will understand where i'm coming from.

[toomanystuffedbears]

Hi oneplusone,
It is hard to put up with this, isn't it?

My dh's dad is a dyed in the wool chauvanist hog,
####snarl#### ,
so dh has very strong tendencies that surface inspite of years of sensitivity training as a civil servant.

When dh is at home and sees me arriving in the minivan, he will stand in the garage and tap the vehicle when I am to stop. Not a big deal, but the degradation that I can't park it is there. (Not to mention how many friggin' times I park it when he isn't there!!) Yesterday (literally), he was there and without making eye contact, I mouthed the words "I can park it". He must have seen it, because he went inside. No other comment.

Yes I do realize that I do have self-esteem issues so I am sensitive to put downs. (But isn't or shouldn't everyone be sensitive to put downs?)

I did say at one point, and I may be repeating myself here, that "I blamed my Middle Sister for degrading me so much, but that he has put me down his fair share". He had more self awareness of his treatment of me after I said that.

I am more prone to speak up, now that I am working on myself. If I am dismissed, I will now say-matter of factly-, "So, just shut me up!"

We don't shout here. I even stopped shouting at the children several years ago. There is just no real use for it-no possible positive outcome, iykwim. (I confess to exceptions regarding teenage dd's treatment of her toddler sister -and she wonders why toddler prefers her db. )

But I know the reflexive urge to shout when one is frustrated out of ones mind and when the anger spikes, so does the volume.

You need to find a comment that you can say (like a code signal) that will let him know he has crossed the line and you are disconnecting because of his unacceptable behavior. Mine is "Rude Beast". It isn't vulgar, but it gets to the point.

Neanderthal man sometimes can be trained, sometimes not.

If not, I think the best thing you can do is stop investing so much of your emotional integrity in interactions with him (not him directly-just the interactions with him). This is nearing a threshold of erosion of respect for him so try not to let it fester, and snowball into something big-like losing all respect for him. An incident is an incident, when it is over it is history, done, let it go.

But if there is a recurring example, like parking the minivan- bide your time and think of a solution. I may also choose to leave the van on the driveway -and suggest it needs washing.

[poshsinglemum]

Why isn't it feminine to shout?
What are supposed to do? Simper?

[oneplusone]

roundwindow, thanks for your post and happy that you understand where I'm coming from.

I totally agree with you here:"but sometimes it's DH's demands which one needs to be released from as much as DCs." Exactly. After a non-stop, tiring, draining and demanding day with 2 young DC's on my own, I do not need or want DH making demands of me as well, in the evenings or at weekends. I fully understand he has his needs too but I rate his needs as equal in importance to mine, whereas the DC's usually take priority.

Had a bit of a chat today with him and said I was not happy about his sexist views. He tried to deny it by saying he did the washing up and changed nappies etc, but of course those things do not mean he doesn't have other sexist views. I think with him it will be a case of standing my ground and like a child, at some point he will realise he is not going to get his own way and he will have to concede to my way of thinking. And after 6 years as a full time SAHM I have had loads of practise in standing my ground until one of the DC's realises there is no other option but to do as I ask.

[roundwindow]

Like others have said, the 'unfeminine' business is an insulting load of wank. Men do not have some sort of 'license' to be angry that women don't have . I grew up with the idea that women aren't allowed to get angry and it was unrealistic and unhelpful and harmful.

Yes, like you say, it's great to stay calm and kind and avoid shouting if you can. Both of you. But to think getting shouty is any more acceptable for one of you than the other based on gender, grrrrrr. Not on. Suggest you tell him how you feel about his comments. Calmly but dead seriously. It's all you can do.

And on the space of your own issue... well I couldn't empathise more but I guess you have to let go of the need for validation from him. Just focus on your perfectly reasonable crusade to get your needs met. The fact that you you need it is enough for you to try and make it happen in any way you can. The 'do not disturb' sign. Buggering off out somewhere. Whatever is best for you. Don't know about you, but sometimes it's DH's demands which one needs to be released from as much as DCs. Don't expect him to understand, but do try to come to an agreement that results in some sort of commitment from him that he will be in charge when you have your break.

[oneplusone]

well paid of course

[oneplusone]

I agree that shouting is not good behaviour in anyone, male or female, but we're both human and sometime crack under the pressure so we both very ocasionnally shout when we're angry/upset.

DH does work from home quite a bit and his office is full of computers etc and I wouldn't want to go in there. Even if me having my own little room will be unlikely to ever happen unless we win the lottery, i still object to his idea that the mere wanting of such a room is unfeminine or is me competing with him in some way.

I have to say that he has got worse since he started a new job around 2 years ago. Admittedly it is a very good job, very well pain etc, and i think the money and status has gone to his head as he wasn't always like this, well not this bad. I have pointed this out to him but of course he denies it, but i can see the change in him. Add to that my being a SAHM, no wonder in his mind he feels far superior and more important than me.

I actually cannot be bothered with trying to change his attitude, but i will always speak out if i think he is being MCPiggy. But things are not as bad as the impression i might have given by my posts. We have been through a lot together and he has stuck by me when a lesser man would have walked out so that is why i am willing to tolerate his more unappealing traits.

[2rebecca]

I wouldn't want to live with anyone who shouts and gets angry when they are upset. If they can't keep their voice down then I'd rather they waited until they could.
Some people seem to enjoy shouting at each other. I hate being shouted at and think it's a horrid bullying way to treat anyone. It's not unfeminine, it's just rude and nasty. I don't shout at people at work and I don't shout at people at home.
No-one in our house has a study.

[warthog]

i would counter his 'not feminine' comments with your size-cock comments. otherwise fight for the THINGS you want rather than the ideal and hope that slowly the ideal will become a way of thinking.

ie. get your own space, whatever he thinks. shout if you get angry (within reason) regardless of whether he thinks it's unfeminine. don't accept his comments anymore.

but i suspect this is what you're already doing.

in which case, you need to continue and hope that over time, like with a toddler, it will eventually sink in and he will grow up.

[hullygully]

"Feminine." Hmmm.

[MorrisZapp]

Does your DH actually work from home? If he does then I think it's entirely reasonable that he has an office.

My DP works from home and has an office that is off limits to me and to any visiting children - it's got all sorts of files and important computery stuff in it.

He doesn't lock the door or anything but it is very much his space. I don't work from home so I don't have an office.

We'd both love to have what we call a 'cosy' ie a private room each for pottering, telly etc but like most couples we'd have to win the lottery first.

I'm a raging feminist and I think that your DH pulling you up for your lack of femininity in an argument is pathetic, but the room of one's own is a fantasy anyway so why even discuss it? It's only an issue if and when you have a house big enough to warrant divvying off spare rooms.

[SerendipitousHarlot]

erm.... moondog. What?