Is it possible to remain really good friends with childless people when you have children?

[emkana]

Or do I just know the wrong people?

I just spent a week at home in Germany and met up with my childless friends there. They totally lacked understanding for the practical implications of having children - example: They were astounded that I couldn't take my two children (four and nearly two) for an evening visit to the flat of friend number one, to then move on to flat of friend number two at about midnight. When my children were happily chatting and playing, not being misbehaved at all they said "God, emkana, you really must have nerves of steel to be able to cope with this." And the whole time I spent with them they didn't see any need to ask me any questions about my life, presumably because I'm "only" a SAHM so what could I possibly have to say?

Grrrr.
I used to be so close to these women...

I was the first of my friends (at 24) to have a baby. Although they try to understand and are never rude about it, they blatently live a different life to me. They all finished uni and set off on the career path and they are so far from having children it's untrue. Because of my age (I think? - I seem to be an in-between age?) I have found it very difficult to make friends since having ds and consequently have been kind of left with no close friends. It's quite strange cos I don't fit in with anyone!

Emkana, it's in the nature of a good friendship for conversation to be 2-way. If they're true friends, they ought to be interested in you & your life. Some people are just too self-obsessed to make very good friends, and IMO, need to be chucked. Were these friends of yours always like this, do you think, but you're just noticing it now?

I think another thing to considerbut of course it wouldn't apply to all childless womenis some aspect of jealousy? I think a lot of young women desire children at some point in their lives. . .maybe theses friends are envious that you got there first, no matter how satisfied they seem to be in their careers? Maybe it makes them feel anxious about their choices or their futures? There could be complicated emotions running around their heads that are being expressed with underhandedly rude comments & an apparent lack of interest in your life.

Thanks for your post, expatcat. I think you're right, there are elements of jealousy there, all these friends have their reasons why it's to some extent doubtful if they'll ever have children.

They didn't seem so self-obsessed when we were younger, but then we had more in common. I think the problem is as well that I'm an extremely happy SAHM, so that makes it boring in a way. I'm sure if I needed a shoulder to cry on about motherhood they would be sympathetic.

I had a childless friend who could bore for England about work - and frequently did.
She dropped me when I had kids but then, weirdly, tried to start up the friendship again when she had kids.

No way, Jose.

Message withdrawn

just catching up with this thread

Am I a first time mum? Well yes and no. It's true that I am expecting my first baby any day now but I am also step mum to my four year old daughter. Initially we shared custody with her mum but she has been with us full time since Christmas. I think I've mentioned her on other threads.

So yes, it's my first experience of pregnancy, birth and early babyhood, but I'm already a mum.

Does this mean you can stop "PMSL" at me not being qualified to post on this thread? I actually found that attitude a bit nasty.

no, they dont possibly understand. we have friends - not close friends but more aquaintences who invite us every year to their new years eve bash and don't understand why when my oldest is now old enough to babysit - i would possibly miss the opportunity for a piss up - to be with my kids on new years eve!!

Luckily for me (as I have said) my friends are very understanding and love my dd. I still make the effort to go out and not talk about baby (which I still enjoy!) too much and they make the effort to help me out and take an interest in dd.

I am glad they have been able to understand and support me. I certainly don't think it is impossible. In fact, I know it is not.

I'd have thought it's nice to have a break from baby stuff and remember who you used to be beforehand...just my opinion, but I quite like who I used to be and hope I don't drown under baby talk.

I'm always reminded of my mother in law. Her life was her children, and when they went to university, she was screwed up for literally years. I think it's very important to retain something of yourself, and having childless friends (albeit they may eventually sprog) helps that enormously. I'd like to think I could have stimulating conversations with them after they have children, too. I'll be in a position to tell them if they are being boring - and they have already had my permission to slap me if I do anything froma an imaginary list we've drawn up. We've treated it as comic but I really do mean it!!

mogwai wrote>>> I can really see the difference with the younger ones - they don't understand some of the issues, for example, one of them got quite sniffy because I couldn't come to her housewarming party when I was pregnant and ill (wait till it's her turn!), but I don't expect them to know how it feels.

given what you yourself have written above, do you really think we are being "nasty"? or do you think we are thinking - in your own words - "wait till it's her turn"?

i have been wondering what else to write - go back to my original comments on your first post - while i agree with you on a number of things - actually, now you've clarified your situation some of your other comments (which sounded either harsh or downright inexplicable) become clear.

imho, some (not all) of your original comments were only understandable from the pov of the childless... anyway...

didn't mean to offend you - but forthright views will get forthright answers...

the fact that other posters came back and said, "yeah well come back in a year" should tell you something.

anyhow, whatever about all that, my very best wishes for your impending birth, i hope it goes as well as possible - all the best for your new arrival.

I found out who my frinds were when i was preggers. Those who understood that i couldnt come to the pub and watch them getting pissed because i was feeling tired and more than a bit nauseous...and those who didnt.

I promised myself i wouldn't become a baby bore, but having prepared for ds for 9 months and now spending 24/7 with him for the past 2 months, i find it hard to talk about my own life without mentioning ds. Suppose thats why i've become an idle gossip.I agree that chatting about current affairs is a good way to bridge the gap. Also relaying a bit of Phil n Fern always makes my friends a bit jelous . tee hee.

I tend to agree with some things Mogwai mentioned. Many people told me things like "wait until you have children" but now I have my own I don't see how that comment applies. The truth is that all mothers are different and have different ideas about what good/bad behaviour is and how to deal with it. For example, at home we have a chunky IKEA wooden house puzzle which has a good potential to cause damage to/by the hands of a toddler (OK we didn't have children at the time so didn't know how bad the thing was, we got it because we wanted to have something nice that visiting children could play with while at the house). We call it the "mum sorting device", because you only need to see the toddler and the mum in front of the puzzle to realise how they deal with these situations:

-Friend one: Child takes the chimeney off the house and starts banging the table, mother picks up the piece from his hand while telling him there's a fly at the window. Toddler releases the piece, go look for the fly while the mother hides the puzzle away.

-Friend 2: Child takes a big piece and starts banging the table, follows up by banging the sofa, the walls, the TV screen, and finally places the piece inside the video, pulls it away breaking the video. Mother who has been seing all this without any attempt to distract her, asks what on Earth I was thinking by placing the television at that height. (well, it's a TV bench... are they supposed to be higher than a metre?)

• Friend 3: Child starts banging the pieces on the table and making dents to it, mother remove the puzzle and hands the toddler one of my research magazines. The kid reduces it to pieces while the proud mother exclaims: Look! he has learned how to tear the pages off!.

• Friend 4: Forget about the wooden house, we had hid it away so no more stories about it

• Friend 5: Mother comes in with toys for the girl to play while they are here. None of the toys is potentially dangerous for the girl or the house. Oh relax! lovely evening

I try to keep in mind how I felt about this when visiting other people's houses, specially when the people don't have children of their own. Kids will be kids, sure, but we as mothers can do something about them, can we? we don't need to have children to realise about this.

Erm - am I missing something Chandra? If it's so unsuitable as a toy, why not put it away before other children come to visit? And why do mothers need to bring their own 'suitable' toys with them - can't their children play with some of your children's toys? I hate badly behaved children and I don't think causing damage of any kind should be tolerated but I think I would find it a bit stressful visiting you and feeling as though I were being tested!

I'm with Chandra - agree I'd have put it away the first time it caused damage, but think the idea of it as a "mum sorting" device is hilarious!! A girl after my own heart.

When we got married, we would have loved children at the wedding, there were only a handful of them and none were family. Unfortunately my bridesmaid had a son who was very unruly and badly disciplined. He came to one of her bridesmaid fittings and it became apparent he was a little shit when he tore up all the wedding magazines in the waiting room and his grandma, who was minding him, didn't stop him (I'd have taken him home immediately).

As a result, we deliberately didn't invite anyine's child to our wedding. Actually the parents all told me later they'd had a better time without their kids! One couple couldn't get a babysitter and lived very far away, so we invited their girls to be flower girls. I knew my friends well, I knew they wouldn't put up with any bad behaviour. The girls were ages 2 and 4 and their wonderful behaviour drew many compliments.

Using the puzzle as a mum-sorting device would have had the same effect! I might get one!!

Yes Saltine, the part you are missing from my post is that at the time I bought the puzzle I had not children of my own therefore, I had no other toys . Please also see descriprion of friend 4. So no worries, if you ever come to visit me you won't be tested, however... if your children misbehave... I may end up giving you the little house as a gift

I honestly don't think I would be worthy of a visit to either you, Chandra, or Mogwai.

oh Satine, that's not true! As long as you don't have bolognaise around your mouth, you'll be fine

You have a gorgeous name btw, is it French?

I beleive it is possible - are they true friends if they do not understand the difficulties?

I have childless friends who take my DS from me so I can have a night out with others without children!

I agree with Anteater, I think her post said:

NO

The worse for me if childless RELATIVES who we basically never see anymore. We used to have lovely drinking weekends but now it is so stressful visiting them. I have a lot of friends and relatives who will happily admit that they just DON'T LIKE CHILDREN. It makes me very unhappy TBH but I also think that in 15-20 years we WILL be able to do things together again and it's worth making the effort because let's face it, we're not going to be juggling children forever, even though it feels like it now.

No read the whole thread but think it is possible.

My best friend was the first to have kids - her eldest will be 16 this year (gulp !). I only had my ds nearly 5 years ago.

The point is that we are still best friends. She used to say that she lived life vicariously through me in my single years (she got married 20 yeard ago - I got together with my now dh 12 years ago), and I used to say that she was "training" me in family life.

Which is true - the grounding that she gave me stood me in good stead when I had ds. A lot of my parenting attitudes I learnt from her.

Maybe what is needed is a bit of respect and understanding - on both sides.

of course I am not suggesting that anyone here has not shown their childless frineds respect - just that perhaps their childless freinds perhaps haven't been able to develop the understanding necessary to continue the friendship.

I think some of you have been a bit harsh with Mogwai - all her comments sounded totallly valid to me. One of the htings I STILL dislike about some parents is the scoffing 'just you wait' attitude - as if child-rearing was the hardest thing in the world, that no-one who hasn't been through it could ever understand - poppycock!

"come back in a year" - well, my ds is 11 months old, and I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about - he's good as gold, we love every moment with him, and I don't feel as if it's really been hard work at all.

As for the original question, I think it depends on the friends. But I would agree that the fact that emkana doesn't see her german firends as often does 'rais the stakes' - I have that a bit when I go home to wales. I have realised that if your firends are considerate/have previous experience of children, you will be fine.

teeavee, well, maybe you should come back to this in a year too when your compliant baby is a wilful toddler. But hey, I really don't care about this enough to argue about it so I won't go on. I don't think anyone was nasty, just pointing out that you really can't comment on a situation if you haven't been there and mogwai hasn't. Sorry, being pregnant and having a 4yo for the last 6 months isn't the same as having been a parent for years and years, I don't know that anyone would argue that it was! And I do agree that it's possible for the childless and parents to be friends with consideration on all sides. The things is, even if your friends do have children, you won't necessarily agree with every aspect of everything they do (as mumsnet goes to show).

v. true, www
It's just that it's not v. constructive to tell a new mum that things will automatically get worse for her in the future - sounds really negative to me.
I prefer when people tell me to enjoy every moment, and that every age has it's good points. That's the kind of supportive comment I like to hear!

It depends on the friends IME. My very best friend before I had my twins is now someone I rarely see - she just doesn't "do" children, hasn't the slightest bit of interest in them.
The last time I saw her I drove an hour and a half to her house for lunch, the pizza was on the table when we arrived and my children were "instructed" to sit down and eat nicely by her and not move (particularly near her cream sofas!). We spent about 20 minutes eating, then I popped upstairs to the bathroom. When I came down my DDs were standing in the hall having had their coats and shoes put on and she was obviously expecting us to leave!! .

The other extreme is another close friend who thinks the world of them, pops in every week, takes them to the theatre/cinema/lovely restaurants, knows who their friends are, what they are doing, just basically takes a lot of interest in them.

Everyone is different I suppose. You can't make people like kids.

Well, I think that as somebody else mentioned what is needed is a bit of respect and understanding - on both sides.

As a mother of a toddler in the terrible twos who would cover the walls in crayola marks if I dare to look the other side, I would say that, I expect that my friends are a bit more understanding that I may not be able to pay full attention to what they are saying, as I have to keep an eye on DS and what he's doing. But I can not expect them to understand that my lovely toddler has ruined the new sofas (which may cost as much as her salary of a month) just because DS "is just a child" or "accidents just happen".

I think that what irritates me is not the child misbehaving but a mother who decides just to ignore the behaviour while the child is misbehaving. But please don't take me wrong, the only time that I have resorted to meeting with a mother at the park instead of at my house was when her toddler repeatedly kicked my yorkie so bad that it started vomiting and gasping, the mother could have stoped the child immediatly (she also noticed from the very biginning) but she didn't ,instead she got annoyed when I had to raise my voice to him to distract him enough to be able to remove the dog from the corner. This was the final straw, prior to that he had broken the shower enclosure (700 pounds to replace it, spread bananas over the sofa (40 pounds of cleaning service), broken 2 glass flower vases (aprox. 60 pounds) and an antique wooden box (which had lots of sentimental value to me). I don't mind accidents but if the mother doesn't care, such friendship may end up being very expensive and ... most people are not rich.