Is it possible to remain really good friends with childless people when you have children?

[emkana]

Or do I just know the wrong people?

I just spent a week at home in Germany and met up with my childless friends there. They totally lacked understanding for the practical implications of having children - example: They were astounded that I couldn't take my two children (four and nearly two) for an evening visit to the flat of friend number one, to then move on to flat of friend number two at about midnight. When my children were happily chatting and playing, not being misbehaved at all they said "God, emkana, you really must have nerves of steel to be able to cope with this." And the whole time I spent with them they didn't see any need to ask me any questions about my life, presumably because I'm "only" a SAHM so what could I possibly have to say?

Grrrr.
I used to be so close to these women...

I have managed to stay friends with all of my friends so far, they are all childless so I would have been pretty lonely if that had not been the case!

It does take effort on both sides, ie, them taking an interest in my dd. Me - trying to go out of an evening to the pub etc...

For me it has been the same as hoxtonchick and hellomamma.

Can't quite believe your friends didn't try to understand your situation more...

i find things are very different. we used to do loads on impulse and get very drunk but now we don't get invited to a lot becuase it's not easy without prior arranging but it does put me out a bit cos it would be nice to be asked even if there is a high chance we'll have to decline.

Pruni - another great list!

Agree wholeheartedly!

Have to make things up (excuses not to go out) to avoid admitting am just too old and knackered!
And all the stuff my childless friends fret about...well I try hard to remember what it felt like to be at that life stage, so can be sympathetic to a degree, but they can't symapthise with me in return.

Reminds me of taking students in my job, when they spend all the lunch hour boring me with stories about their housemates and/or landlord. Like I'm interested! Have actually stopped taking students on all-day placements because they drive me crazy over the lunch hour!

I try to discuss topics on neutral ground with my childless friends - politics, work issues etc.

I've (fortunately) had only positive experiences with childless friends--they've been incredibly considerate, sensitive & helpful re the logistics of having children about. And they've also been kind & loving with my kids, like surrogate aunts & uncles.

BUT some of these childless friends have complained to me about what they don't like about some mums. . . apparently it's incredibly annoying when mums are patronizing: "My life was nothing until I had children" or "You just won't understand until you have kids." They also dislike it when mums are unable to talk of anything besides their chilldren.

I'm sure you don't do any of that, emkana, and frankly your friends sound clueless. . .but I do think mums have to uphold their half, too, & avoid making the gulf between mums & chidlless women any wider than it already is.

PS: I had this one friend, this brilliant poet & essay writer who was an incredible beauty, too, and used to dazzle everyone with her ability to talk about or debate anything, backing arguments up with effortless quotes like, "Nietzche would say. . ." but in a remarkably disarming & unpretentious way. (I, for example, could never get away with that, even if I could quote Nietzche.) Anyway, 18 months ago she had her 1st child & it's as if she's channeled all that energy & intelligence into raising a superstar brilliant child. Topics of conversation include: "Why doesn't my 18-month-old daughter know the alphabet yet? How can I get her reading?" All she ever talks about now is her daughter, the nanny, the school her daughter will go to, how competitive other mothers are, etc etc. . .I never thought I'd say this of her of all people, but she's become boring. It's not her fault, though--she's an all or nothing person, and right now it's all about her child. Someone could argue (very easily!) that I'm a much worse mother than she is, but an easier friend for a childless person to have.

interesting expatkat.

I also used to think my "mother" friends were boring - they still are!

I remember going out for a meal with three of them for my birthday one year. They didn't even wish me a happy birthday, just had endless conversations about their children, comparing achievements. I couldn't participate in the conversation and I don't think they'd have batted an eyelid if I'd opened a broadsheet and studied it! Actually it would have been far more enjoyable!

Yes, another thing I remember about being childless was those "you don't know anything until you've had children" comments. This was especially hard at work, as I specialise in child development. It was somehow seen as a hinderance to my decision making or management that I wasn't a mother. Actually I think it was a huge help because I could be more objective. Being a mother gives a totally different perspective, which is helpful in some respects and not others.

It always grated at me when people said "it's alright for you, you can just swan off shopping at the drop of a hat!" - I could never understand the point they were trying to make - that they regretted having their children? Resented my freedom? I remember my nextdoor neighbour being mightily put-out when she asked where we'd been all weekend and I replied "New York". She started grumbling about us being childless, when actually we had been trying for a baby for some time.

As a childless person I always accommodated my friends and their children, in every sense, be that buying kiddie foods if they were visiting, or setting up spare rooms, planning activities around their children and organisisng trips to kiddie places (which, incidentally, is generally mind numbing to childless people). But I would have appreciated some consideration in return, that is the point I was making earlier in the thread.

mogwai, am I right in thinking you haven't had your baby yet?

EPK, your lovely friend sounds appalling at the moment

Mogwai, love your list-hits the nail on the head! (And I'm a mother of two!)
Try very hard to make my children as unobstrusive as possible when with people without kids.
Parents can bore for Britain,can't they?
What gets me is the way they go on and on at each other about things like walking,sleeping and so on,yet noone is listening to anyone else.
Jesus,imagine being an HV and listening to that day in,day out!

If we entertain at home,I often get a babysitter in just so that we can enjoy being grownups with minimal distraction.

But.....it is so true that until you have children,you have no idea what it entails-I didn't despite having been a very hands on auntie for years prior to this (doing stuff like taking my nieces and nephews abroad for weeks on end even!)

I haven't found any problems maintaining friendships with my childless friends at all. One friend was 14 when her little sister was born so is very au fait with babies and toddlers so is fab with mine. The other childless friend has no siblings but is brilliant with the kids also. Both of these friends can't wait to have their own and are very understanding of issues around babysitting etc and often come to us for a 'stay-in' evening with takeaway or we cook a meal, a film, games and chat.

I don't find any of my 'mummy' friends boring either. Far from it.

ANd I've never found my friends with mothers waffle endlessly about their children either - sure some it's covered, it's something we all have in common, but it's certainly not the only topic of conversation.

I think it is very possible, but more difficult in the early years when everything is so intense, the kids so demanding and intrusive if you're trying to do or think something else. Also when lack of understanding like this really makes you think 'I don't need this'.

Worth trying to hang on to the good ones, if only at a distance, so that you're still in touch later in lives maybe? - I know my mum gets great good out of her college friends who she barely saw when we were small.

mogwai, you haven't had your baby yet??!!

sorry, i am pmsl now

Actually, I rather appreciate the pressure to stop boring on about my kids, too. One friend of mine, who is fabulous with children but also has chosen to have none of her own, points out - very nicely as it happens - when I've talked about them non-stop for a while. And I'm extremely grateful to have the encouragement to be someone who has other interests as well as her little darlings.

well quite bk! Mogwai, please come back to this thread in a year's time! please? I'd be v interested to hear what you think then.

Mogwai, if you haven't had your baby yet, will you promise to re-read this thread in a year's time? You made some really valid points and I am very well aware of how tedious having people with children to stay can be before you have your own but also it can be so stressful staying with childless friends because you know they are watching your children to make sure they don't smear bolognaise or pen on the walls, and you desparately try to keep them quiet in the mornings and you try not to keep ducking out of adult converations to prevent accidents but it's all fairly inevitable, I'm afraid!

Sorry - crossed threads with www!

I don't think pen scrawling or bolognese smearing are ever acceptable actually. I'd be mortified if my kids did this.

no, neither do i, and i don't think anyone here has said they are.

Most of my friends have children but we have been friends for eons so not actively searched out earth mothers iyswim. Some work f/time, some p/time, some SAHM, 1 kick ass career superwoman, all different so we don't just talk about children.

My sister doesn't have childen and her house is all cream and white and polished like in a magazine but she still plys dd1 with chocolate and I don't feel uncomfortable there. She talks about her cats as much as I go on about children .

olive,my idea of hell would be one person going on about cats,another about kids..oooh and maybe two more,going on about horoscopes and dreams respectively. Aaargh!!!!
(Due respect to your sister )

or houseprices and motors

sounds like an idea for a different thread - social gatherings from hell.

The thing is I don't talk about my children when I'm with these friends. But then I feel that they could ask me about my life with them, just like I ask them about their work.
Why is it more valid to talk about a work-outside-the-home job than about my SAHMdom?
And if they did ask I would make very sure not to be boring, so I'd avoid talking about their food intake, or sleeping habits, or whatever...

I met up with some of my old workmates, last month. I was surprised at how much they wanted to talk about me being a SAHD and how jealous they all were. Not because they think I'm living an easy life, but because they are all disillusioned with working in the Corporate world and having more and more stress put on them. I didn't get any grief for not being available for drinks anymore, it was really nice.