SIL does not let her children play outside - they are pale and miserable.

[talking]

Briefly, my SIL is obsessed by cleaning.
I briefly visited her today and left after 20 minutes.

Her 4 children have been indoors all day - watching TV. They are all under 13. They have a garden and a patio.

Their mother is scared of the outside world.

The oldest has just started her period and she is having cramps. Her mother would not let her do anything today and gave me the impression that periods are an illness. She was indoors all day and I said that fresh air and walking in the garden would help.

My DH (we are married to brothers) will not say anything - despite being a medical Dr - and I have been warned off saying anything cos I will be "talked about" behind my back. The family refuse to see that there is a problem.

What can I do to help these poor children?
The mother is passing her phobia onto them.
They are already being laughed at by their peers.

The oldest one is 12yr codinbatter-she at least could go out on her own! Having 4 DCs is no excuse-you have to find ways of getting them out. Do play dates etc so at least they get time with friends to do all these things-send them out in the garden-sign them up for play schemes. She needs professional help IMO.

Talking: could you offer to take just 1 or 2 of the children out for your SIL (would she be ok for that?); as a 'helpful' and loving auntie? Maybe the youngest would just come on his own. You could end up taking different children in turns. You could dress it up as them coming around to yours to help out (but really they just get to chill), or go to the park together, go to the shops or a cafe or the zoo, etc.

I don't think that there's any mileage in making what will be seen as critical gossip or interfering by telling her to her face that you disapprove. That kind of thing will only be taken in the worst possible way (I would take it very badly myself). It's not really a supportive approach.

Try to think of ways to entice them out instead, help the children get experiences they otherwise are missing out on.

There was a mum a lot like your SIL at our last school; she was very concerned about her children being well-behaved and immaculately dressed; the children came across as completely repressed -- but sly (they were spiteful, especially to each other, when mum wasn't looking) and fat because they got so little exercise . Funny the mum was so worried about what people might say, that her paranoia backfired in a way.

They go to school though, don't they? So on a normal school day, they are outdoors and mingling and running about. It's just the weekends and holidays that are the problem then.

Could you walk them to your house on a Friday or pick up a couple of them to spend the night now and again? So SIL and BIL can have a night out together is what I would say.

Are they involved in any sports at all?

Thank you all so much.
I feel better for your input.
If I take one i have to take all - I'm scared to do that.
I feel able to talk to the mother.
I'm distressed by seeing the 5 of them as I was walking out the door yesterday - all of them so pale and skinny - couldn't tell who was the mother.

SIL won't let you take just one or two out? That's even weirder!
Could someone else in the family help you take all 4 (in their car, etc.?) A granny or another aunt maybe?

so is it about cleanliness, (the keeping them indoors) or is it about safety?

I read once somewhere that excessive emphasis on cleanliness in the home reflects a feeling of being scared in the world and wanting to impose order on it in order to overcome that fear. Something like that anyway.

Did something bad happen to her when she was a dc I wonder

If it is about safety, it is really quite difficult to handle, isn't it? Other than going to a park with her and the dc so she they don't get overcome by her fears and take them on themselves, I don't for the moment see what you could do to help.

Child abuse. That's what's going on here. Just because she isn't whacking them black and blue, or is acting from what is plainly a mental illness doesn't make it all right.

Tend to agree echt

What a shame she won't let one or two go out with you. Probably a control thing TBH.

I do think they need some intervention, maybe the NSPCC could advise you better? A children's centre worker will see a lot of families in areas of social deprivation and probably won't feel your SIL is severe enough in comparison.

Why is the DD underweight? Are there food issues going on too? Just wondered as you said mum is pale and thin as well as the dcs.

Sorry piscesmoon if I wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to defend the mother's actions, just to see how she may have got to that place. I absolutely agree that having 4 children is not an excuse for keeping them indoors, it's just that I could see how an OCD-type person might get there from a fear of it all getting a bit out of control.

OP, why is it a case of 'all or none'?

Hi.

Haven't got a chance to read this thread properly. Will try to read later.

Thanks.

All or none sounds odd, particularly when you have 4 kids, very few folk want 4 kids at once for the day, if you're taking them with another kid they won't fit in the car. I only have 2 but they go out seperately with friends/ relatives etc as different ages and interests. When I was a kid I loved having a relative take me out on my own rather than feeling just 1 of a 3 pack lumped together as "the children". If the oldest is 13 it seems odd he can't do anything without dragging 3 younger sibs along. All sounds very odd, but you'll have to get her blood relative family and ? husband (can't remember if she has one)involved to change anything unless you have a good relationship with her.

Hi. Im wondering if your SIL fears started with the death of her mother, or if her mothers death excaserbated,(sp), them.
I too would find the situation very difficult,and eventually would have to say something. Being talked about,would be the least of my concerns, compared to the dc.
If your SIL is mentally unwell, she is not going to be able to see the situation clearly or rationally-in her mind, she is protecting her dc from harmful germs and the danger of the outside. She will not see the misery she is causing to her dc.
They cannot speak-up for themselves, they need an adult to do it for them. By other family members saying nothing, they are colluding with her and condoning the situation.
I am surprised your dh will not say anything. Ask him what he would do, if a patient, or their relative came to him with the same situation. Would he advise a status-quo? I think not.
Please try and talk to your SIL and see if she will accept help. If she wont, ask your dh to intervene, or say you will. Could you talk to one of their Heads at school in confidence? Yes, the dc may be running around at school, but they are at home, far more than school. Also, particularly with the younger dc, they may be repeating things about germs etc. they hear their mother saying, and other dc may riducle them.
Think of your dn crying in the background, wanting to go to the park-that should spur you on. Good Luck.

I think you need to go to the root of the problem, rather than just inviting the children around.

She sounds mentally ill and I think your husband should put some pressure on her husband to encourage her to get help. She's probably got depression or anxiety and can be easily helped. Some of these replies sound a bit judgy to me.

Hi everyone.
Posting quickly while DD is asleep.
I talked to 2 women yesterday from our local children's centre who have helped me with my own DD (who is very active!).

I will talk to NSPCC about the best way of addressing the issue cos this is a very difficult situation.

It's so silly - I can't park my car near SIL's house if I take DD to the park in case her children see my car (it's green) as I don't want to rub their noses in it.

I am deliberately keeping DD and her cousins apart cos I don't want to see SIL and this isn't fair on the children.

I agree with all your posts - Bigpants especially.

The two of them have a severe fear of birds. Another member of the family told me she was with them after school by the shops and one girl started screaming - a passerby thought the family member was trying to abduct her!

I can clearly see now that I'm not being OTT in my concerns.

One of the mums said to the 13 year-old, "Why can't you walk to school - it's a 20 minute walk" - She isn't even allowed to go around the corner to her grandmother by herself (no busy roads). I am not sure how my MIL feels about this - she does not speak English.

Just wanted to add:

I've had my own difficulties in adjusting to motherhood and I wouldn't go in attacking her or judging her or saying "this is wrong, do this, do that", I need professional advice on the actual words to use.

Talking, you sound very nice and sensible. Maybe having a chat about your own experience of becoming a parent might help? E.g. start off by saying "Gosh, it's hard isn't it, I don't know how you cope with 4", and if she opens up to you, you could suggest taking (e.g.) the two youngest kids out to the park, or taking your niece out shopping one day.

What a sad situation, your SIL sounds miserable too.

Do these kids have a father? Surely this is his problem as a parent as opposed to yours as a SIL.

I dunno. I just wonder how anybody would react if their family tried to get professionals to intervene in their personal lives.

These kids can presumably run around during the school day etc so I don't agree that this is abuse.

Ultimately, what do you want to happen?

If MIL doesn't speak English is SIL from a culture where women just don't leave the house unaccompanied? This might explain some of the behaviour. It's still not good for the children but if cultural issues as well as phobia ones are involved social services etc won't be keen to be involved if family are supporting her.

Your description of them reminded me of that trashy book - Flowers in the Attic.

What a difficult situation good on you for plugging away - she needs help/encouragement something to stop her messing up those poor children. Was it a sunny day that they were sitting indoors on? How could they bear it?

MorrisZap,
As i said in my previous post, the dc may very well run around at school, but that is such a small percentage of their week-perhaps a 15/20 min break in the am, and an hour for lunch-some of which will be spent eating. The primary school my dc attend, only have 45mins for lunch.
The dc are at home after school, each weekend,and every school holiday-can you imagine being kept indoors for the 7 week summer break?
I actually think, its not just the running around, but the long-term psychological implications for the dc.
I dont think for a minute, the mother doesnt love her dc, but she does sound mentally unwell, and if she doesnt recieve support, it must impact on the dc-and she is passing her fears and nuroses onto them.
Do you really think its ok for dc to be kept indoors for the majority of the time?
Must we as extended family and society always turn a blind-eye, cos its not our business, or people may not like it if we say something.
I hope the SIL can find a way to help-she clearly loves her nieces and nephews. I get the impression, that SIL dh does not see a problem,or chooses to stay quiet like the rest of the family.

Bigpants, I agree with you totally.

SIL is from one of the most liberated and free European countries. She worked before marriage and travelled around that country.

She isn't from a country which keeps it's women indoors for childbearing, cooking and cleaning.

SIL does open up to me a little bit but not much. It may be that by opening up to me, it releases a lot of feelings that she does not know how to deal with. She has to keep functioning as she has children to look after.

Spoke to national body on child welfare.

They have said she does need some help but she has to want it - maybe my DH can speak to her DH. If not, I can't really do anything to help her as she so full of anxiety that she really does need professional help. She has said she gets scared when she is out with her children, scared of cars, strangers.

I am not a therapist and if by seeing her I get distressed, then I need to keep my distance. I may see her maybe once a month and get back-up support from national body or local children's centre.

Bottom line is: She has to want help.

Is there someone who could look after her kids whilst you and she went out? If you could go out even for an afternoon just with her and find somewhere outside in a park to sit and relax and talk perhaps she would feel that she could start to talk to you about it. Perhaps some time on her own away from the kids to make feel like she is an adult as well as a mum might help her.

Sometimes you realise you're doing these things but have no real idea how to overcome them. She might then admit to needing some help.

Hi paranoid.

Not really anyone to take all four - she would have to organise for them all to be at a friend's house and for them to be collected - as she doesn't drive (too scared).

She says that she has been scared of parks since she was a little girl - but that's no reason not to take children. (Nothing bad happened, as far as I know).

The children also get into bed with her. She sees this as being okay - they sleep with her.