*UPDATE* on the DP 'finding himself' trip to India. We had 'the talk', did not go well...

[stellamel]

Original thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=relationships&threadid=799173-DP-is-going-on-39-finding-himself-39-trip -to

....went worse than imagined

It started off all nice and calm, well on my part anyway. I asked if I could chat about a few worries I had regarding the trip, which he grudgingly agreed too, he didn't see what needed to be discussed, as I'd already agreed to the trip. Anyway I pushed on regardless. I asked him straight out what his reason was for going, was it this make or break deal, this finding himself trip, but he said that was what I wanted it to be, it wasn't anything like that for him, he said he was doing the trip because 'he fancied it' , it was something he'd always wanted to do. When I pointed out that I didn't think he could justify an extended trip, to a danger zone, at a large expense just because he fancied it, he just replied 'why not?'.

Anyway it all went down hill really from there really, to condense a very long and exhausting evening into a readable post, he basically said it wasn't to be a one off, he intends to do more of these extended trips to exciting locations. He also refused my compromise of a couple of weeks a year to himself to go off climbing or running etc somewhere (a damn fair compromise I thought). He also refused to turn next year's India trip into a family affair, I tried to suggest we go as a family treking somewhere (we are big hiker types) instead of him doing India. He said no, if we could come on bikes, or possibly canoe down the Andes (what with a 6mth old and a 4 yr old!) then maybe, otherwise there was no point. When I pointed out that I didn't know anyone who thought this was a good idea amongst my friends and both our families (men as well as women), he said he couldn't care less and that everyone of his mates at work thought it was a brilliant plan, and they wished they could do it. He then said the most negative thing ever 'All men are held back by their families'!

He basically accused me of being selfish, of not understanding because I have no desire to travel, which I said was extremely unfair, I do and would, but I have to put my children first, and I am not even a earth mother type - I just know that my kids have to come first and foremost now, and that doesn't mean I have to sacrifice myself in the process, just that I have to work around the fact that I am a mother with responsibilities. I conceded that family life can be mundane and tedious, and I too feel the need to escape at times, but that can be done without fecking off for weeks and weeks to the other side of the world at great expense.

He is blatantly unaware that his going away heaps massive pressure onto me too, that I need to stay behind and hold the fort as it were while he just swans off.

He told me that this is how he is, that he is a free spirit etc and he'll never be any different.

I pointed out that it sounded like he was trying to escape being a parent and a partner, he replied by saying hypothetically speaking what would that mean if it were true. I told him it would make me feel very insecure and question his commitment to me, and was it worth carrying on. He got angry with that, and said he wanted to be in a relationship and be a Dad.

Ho hum, things deteriorated after that, much of the same going round in circles, with him not understanding any of my fears and worries. I gave up in the end and went to bed.

We are still ok, the trip is still going ahead, with my blessing (he's going regardless, I may as well be included in the build-up, so I can get a grasp of the risks involved and the precautions taken). I have a lot of thinking to do. I have discussed the above with a mutual friend and his mum, and feel that he his possibly never going to compromise and it's down to me know to decide what the future holds. His mum did say, he once came to her quite upset after another failed relationship, he told her he felt he would never be able to have a long term committed relationship because he couldn't find anyone who wanted the same as him. His mum told him that most women will happily coast along for 3 years, but after that they want some show of commitment. He just didn't get it.

So there you go, not positive, but at least I now have a better insight into how he works, and hopefully I can make a choice that is the best for everyone.

I hope things are a bit clearer for you this evening, Stella. x

Stella, you do sound lovely, and strong and steady. You also sound a little like you have a relationship version of Stockholm syndrome, as though you've been trained to support whatever his version of reality is.

If someone other than your partner was saying the things he is and making the plans he is, you'd laugh. He's clearly convinced you that he's special, in a special way, which is why the barest of normal expectations don't apply to him.

You don't have to choose a life that's subservient to his whims and needs. You shouldn't choose that life, not least because of what it will teach your children about life and relationships.

Perhaps it's time to stop trying to see the world through his eyes and try and understand why you think it's even vaguely acceptable for anyone to treat you this way. Forget about him and concentrate on you.

This thread reminded me of this poem which I read years ago.

"If you want to find the perfect high - find it in yourself" - and that some people are not prepared to accept this truth.

Yourself - or your family/partner/children ..... not in some hairbrained scheme which will just lead to more of the same ....

PLEASE listen to Quattro! She gives sound advice.

yes, Quattro is very financially and legally astute, take her advice seriously.

I agree with Wildfig - the trip aside, this plan to career change to photography sounds somewhat risky - you're going to have to be prepared for DP to bring in very little money indeed if he pursues this career.

I'm not sure I agree about buying him out of the house. They are in negative equity and it may take many, many, many years for the house value to rise again. IF the house is to go 100% in her name, he owes HER money.

I think people get far too misty-eyed about property, but it's just business. Right now they have a joint debt - if the property is in his name she's laughing and can walk away, but why on Christ's earth would you encourage her to accept this debt from him?

Do you know what Riven, I was wondering the same, if he quits his job and Stella is on Maternity leave/retraining would the bank give them £4k, even if it was in joint names? I'm willing to stake my right kidney he'd never get this loan in just his own name, not in a million years!

Stella, please, stop this charade now, I know what it's like to love someone this much, and I know that ultimately it's destructive, he will destroy you, your relationship, your self esteem, your joy in life, and damage your children in the process. The man like this that I was involved with took me apart piece by piece, I financially supported him through university and he cheated constantly, went off and did his own thing when ever he felt like it and came back when it suited him (ie he wanted some security, a shag, his washing done and a good meal cooked for him, and eventually left me sniveling and rocking. It took me several years to put myself back together, but I was lucky that we had no children, so I had the luxury of being able to focus totally on myself. You don't have that luxury, so you really need to get this relationship sorted now, before he saps you of everything you have to give, financially and emotionally.

Put a stop to this traveling fantasy now, tell him he either shapes up and takes his responsibilities as a father seriously or he can get out. Your children deserve a positive role model, and you deserve so much better than this.

stellamel - I read the original thread but only the OP on this one.

Your DP is being totally selfish. I know a man like this. He is a good friend in many respects but every so often he goes and does a horrific mountain climbing challenge that has a very high risk attached. He has two young DDs and a wife and seems to have no thought for anyone else once he decides he is going on a trip. He is 45 year old man with an office job and only amateur mountain experience. He had serious altitude sickness last time and had to be rescued from base camp.

I just do not understand the mentality of it. It is beyond me. Sounds like now DP has a wife with kids he just wants to revert back to being a young free and single man while you stay at home looking after his progeny. I would not stand for it.

One practical point. Is DP even insured if he gets killed/injured in certain coutries that are war zones on his route? You may even be left destitute by his death if the worst comes to the worst. He is going against all advice of friends, familly and Foreign Office if he goes to certain high risk countries.

Stellamel - I have read both your threads and one thing that struck me is the fact that not one single person thinks your DP is being reasonable (myself included). This is just beyond belief and I guess you already know that.

I did ask my DH for his thoughts last night and he is someone who would look carefully at both sides of the dispute. He burst out laughing at the absurdity of it all and thought it was a joke at first. When he realised it was for real he simply agreed with everyone else on here.

Look after your own interests and those of DCs.

This is absolutely unbelievable.

I don't believe there is anything on here that will change the DPs mind about this trip. He wants to do it and fuck what anyone else, especially the mother of his children thinks.

His selfish, self absorbed, higher self attitude is frankly disgusting.

Responsible parents can be free spirits, change career and have exciting lives......but....responsible parents do not do it at the expense of their children. They do it within the boundaries of maintaining a healthy family life.

This man is not a partner because partners share and listen to each other but most importantly they compromise. There is zero compromise here. My way of the highway, like it or lump it, kiss my ass. And it's all wrapped up in some sort of pseudo "finding" ones self. I honestly have never heard so much bullshit in a long time.

It's not a relationship. It is a mother who will stay behind and hold the fort whilst the partner goes off and does all the things he should have done before he had children.

Sorry for the negativity of this post but this man is a joke. He is not for changing and OP you have to fully accept this life or walk - because he is not for changing, ever.

Some really good posts on here since I was last one. Muffle, thanks, they were very enlightening posts. And ReallyReally, yours too was very informative. Laquitar and Clumsymum (so right it made me cry with the truth of it) hit the nail on the head in many ways. Yes I am strong and intelligent, but not it appears where men are concerned, love is blind, and I am a fool I know, but I love him so much (God knows why, I am beginning to realise) and clumsymum is right I don't want it to be over, I desperately want to tell myself I can make this work.

However, that said, I have done a pros and cons list and it's a pitiful read. I realise that I need to have another talk with him, one that I'm not sure I want to start, as the outcome may break my heart, but I cannot make all the compromises and receive nothing in return. If I am to accept him warts and all, then why do I not get the same courtesy?

He's having a meeting tonight with my sisters ex (the guy who may go with him, the one who can't ride a motorbike yet!!). It's a risk assessment meeting, to weigh up what the potential pit-falls could be. The DP has said he'll give me a copy of the list so I know what's involved!

Also thanks for the info on the photography! christ it seems like the worst kind of career change he's contemplating, that's been a real eye-opener.

You do sound very strong. It's heartbreaking to realise that your love for someone else, however strong it is, can't make them love you back in the same way. It's that moment of realisation which is the killer.

potential pit-falls

1. Funding. No bank in the world is going to lend a jobless man with a wife/partner on maternity leave £4k to go off on a jolly through various war zones etc.

1. Insurance. They won't be able to get travel, personal liability or medical insurance for most of this trip.

1. Bikes. They will both need to be expert motorcycle mechanics before they set out, as bikes like these manufactured in India will not make this trip without repairs along the way.

1. Survivability. This trip takes them through several war zones, and through an area of the world known for lower levels of hygiene than in the UK, chances are they will get killed, wounded, kidnapped, food poisoning, wound infections and malaria whilst they are in the back of beyond.

Have I forgotten any?

Notjustwaving, yes, that was it for me, I suddenly realised that the level of contempt my x showed for me meant that despite all the years we'd been together he just didn't love me, and never would, no matter how much I loved him, and how much slack I cut him, he was never going to treat me with respect, and when he shacked up with my (alleged) best friend whilst I was away for two weeks a few weeks after we'd split (for the nth time) I realised there was no going back this time.

Stella I feel so sad for you - it sounds like the reality of the situation is beginning to hit home for you. You do sound incredibly strong, your children are lucky to have you for their Mum.

I wouldn't be as concerned about the safety of the trip as some posters here. My brother is a chronic adventurer and he & his girlfriend recently rode from Hong Kong to the UK on bicycles, travelling en route through countries such as China, Russia, Pakistan and Iran (which they said was very safe and friendly btw) without incident, and they had no trouble getting insurance. If you research the relevant areas you can certainly identify the safest and most sensible routes to take.

That said, with two small children of my own and expecting dc3, there is NO WAY KNOWN I would agree to my dh undertaking the sort of trip you describe. I think it's completely unreasonable of him to even suggest it.

Good luck tonight StellaMel.

Maybe something else you might like to think about is your quality of life. You might, at the moment, think that your life would be worse without having him in it to love, but there is so much more love out there to experience that will make the love you have for this selfish man pale into insignificance; not least, the love that your two children will bring with them as they grow up.

You also deserve support from your friends and family and the new people that you allow into your life later on.

I know it's not always very useful to hear other people's RL experiences but if I can I'll just mention one. A dear friend of mine spent 40 years in a marriage with a very selfish man who wore her down throughout their time together. She eventually left him when she was in her fifties and her children were grown up and they supported her in leaving their dad. She had 13 glorious years, living on her own, being close to her daughters and grandchildren and friends before dying very suddenly from cancer two years ago. It makes me sad to think of all those years she spent in the thrawl of this horrible man but I am glad she had those 13 years in the end and I can also state that her children were 100% behind her. They were incredibly relieved when she finally left him, but there is no doubt that his influence badly affected the way they view/ed relationships and equity in them.

Life is very short and very precious. Good luck.

sorry 30-odd years - I'm shite at maths!

Stella, FGS! How old are you?!

This is not about you and him anymore and understanding him and I-love-him-so-much and yadda yadda yadda.

YOU HAVE A LITTLE GIRL NOW AND ANOTHER CHILD ON THE WAY!

Are you serious? You're worried about him, you're worried about your heartbreak.

WHAT ABOUT YOUR KIDS?!

Did you not read ErikaMae's post? About how her mother's living with a man like your DP affected her? Do you realise she's a young woman in her late teens who is pregnant to a 33-year-old man and both of them have issues with self-harming and other mental health issues? THAT is what having a father like your DP can do to your kids.

Big up, woman! You're a mother now.

Sorry you hooked up with a total loser who doesn't give a toss about you or his kids, who doesn't want to work and who is already in the process of ruining you financially.

It happens. I didn't have kids with them, but I've had my share of gits and I paid the price financially, too. You're not alone in that.

But perpetuating the cycle is even more pitiful.

Please don't question my love and commitment for my daughter and new baby. I have taken on board all the comments on here without complaint, but I will not take that thank-you.

I am 40 btw, but my deliberating about what decision to make with regards to my future and my DCs future is understandable. I will not make a snap decision no matter what you think I should do.

Stella sometimes you have to forget about the "loving him so much" bit (that's for young girls) and get down to the nitty gritty bit (that's for strong women) of what he is doing to you and the children - most of all the children. It's not the end of the world to bring up kids by yourself - and you wouldn't be doing it as a "lifestyle choice" but a necessity for their sanity and yours....

What expat says is very true - lots of us have been there and our posts on here (hopefully) stop someone else getting into the nightmare too.

Good luck for tonight, Stellamel.

(And everyone who says your dp can dream on about photography is dead right. I know - professionally - so many very good snappers who are finding it well-nigh impossible to make a living right now.)