*UPDATE* on the DP 'finding himself' trip to India. We had 'the talk', did not go well...

[stellamel]

Original thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=relationships&threadid=799173-DP-is-going-on-39-finding-himself-39-trip -to

....went worse than imagined

It started off all nice and calm, well on my part anyway. I asked if I could chat about a few worries I had regarding the trip, which he grudgingly agreed too, he didn't see what needed to be discussed, as I'd already agreed to the trip. Anyway I pushed on regardless. I asked him straight out what his reason was for going, was it this make or break deal, this finding himself trip, but he said that was what I wanted it to be, it wasn't anything like that for him, he said he was doing the trip because 'he fancied it' , it was something he'd always wanted to do. When I pointed out that I didn't think he could justify an extended trip, to a danger zone, at a large expense just because he fancied it, he just replied 'why not?'.

Anyway it all went down hill really from there really, to condense a very long and exhausting evening into a readable post, he basically said it wasn't to be a one off, he intends to do more of these extended trips to exciting locations. He also refused my compromise of a couple of weeks a year to himself to go off climbing or running etc somewhere (a damn fair compromise I thought). He also refused to turn next year's India trip into a family affair, I tried to suggest we go as a family treking somewhere (we are big hiker types) instead of him doing India. He said no, if we could come on bikes, or possibly canoe down the Andes (what with a 6mth old and a 4 yr old!) then maybe, otherwise there was no point. When I pointed out that I didn't know anyone who thought this was a good idea amongst my friends and both our families (men as well as women), he said he couldn't care less and that everyone of his mates at work thought it was a brilliant plan, and they wished they could do it. He then said the most negative thing ever 'All men are held back by their families'!

He basically accused me of being selfish, of not understanding because I have no desire to travel, which I said was extremely unfair, I do and would, but I have to put my children first, and I am not even a earth mother type - I just know that my kids have to come first and foremost now, and that doesn't mean I have to sacrifice myself in the process, just that I have to work around the fact that I am a mother with responsibilities. I conceded that family life can be mundane and tedious, and I too feel the need to escape at times, but that can be done without fecking off for weeks and weeks to the other side of the world at great expense.

He is blatantly unaware that his going away heaps massive pressure onto me too, that I need to stay behind and hold the fort as it were while he just swans off.

He told me that this is how he is, that he is a free spirit etc and he'll never be any different.

I pointed out that it sounded like he was trying to escape being a parent and a partner, he replied by saying hypothetically speaking what would that mean if it were true. I told him it would make me feel very insecure and question his commitment to me, and was it worth carrying on. He got angry with that, and said he wanted to be in a relationship and be a Dad.

Ho hum, things deteriorated after that, much of the same going round in circles, with him not understanding any of my fears and worries. I gave up in the end and went to bed.

We are still ok, the trip is still going ahead, with my blessing (he's going regardless, I may as well be included in the build-up, so I can get a grasp of the risks involved and the precautions taken). I have a lot of thinking to do. I have discussed the above with a mutual friend and his mum, and feel that he his possibly never going to compromise and it's down to me know to decide what the future holds. His mum did say, he once came to her quite upset after another failed relationship, he told her he felt he would never be able to have a long term committed relationship because he couldn't find anyone who wanted the same as him. His mum told him that most women will happily coast along for 3 years, but after that they want some show of commitment. He just didn't get it.

So there you go, not positive, but at least I now have a better insight into how he works, and hopefully I can make a choice that is the best for everyone.

I was a climber for 8 years, Aitch, I saw stuff like that happen all the time!

Then the twat would go and blame it on his girlfriend. He'd never have left if she hadn't been such a nag, of course.

Why I quit going out with them full stop no matter how hot they were.

Wasn't a girl named 'Harmony' was it?

A friend of a friend's DP had a fling while travelling with a girl named Harmony. The irony was not lost on anyone.

lol, is she or isn;t she a homewrecker?

nope, i'm leaning towards Spirit.

Stella, don't worry about 'doing everything you could to save the relationship.' The relationship is unsaveable because you are, really, the only one who is in a relationship. I think you have already done everything you could think of to 'keep' this man but the vital point is that he simply doesn't want to be in a relationship with you, or to be a parent. He is not interested in you as a person at all. No matter what you do, it won't be enough to stop him fucking off when he feels like it - he is happy to take your money, of course, but that doesn't mean he is going to give you any consideration.
For the rest of your life, bear this one fat in mind: you cannot 'make' someone love you, and it is futile, unethical and very unhealthy to persist in trying. Decent people will run for the hills, nasty selfish ones will take advantage and sneer at you for being pathetic and despearate.

Stella - protect yourself. I would hate to see you start a thread in a year or whenever about the fact that your ex has left you with many thousands of pounds worth of debt.

If you want to stay in this relationship, that's your choice.

If you want to give him your blessing to abandon his family, that's your choice.

If you want to financially support him while you are together, again, that's your choice.

But if it all goes tits up, then you'll be left with the debt while he goes to find the funder of his next trip.

If you won't do anything else at least, please, I am begging you, make him finance his own trips with debts in his own name and his name alone.

I may as well have a crystal ball because I can see your future clear as day.

V. good point from solidgold there - both parties have to sign up to saving a relationship, you can't do it on your own.

I read your other thread Stella but didn't comment, as others had covered it. I'm so sorry this is the outcome of the chat.
I just wanted to add that unfortunately he hasn't got a hope in hells chance of becoming a photographer at the moment.
Dh has been a successful editorial photographer and I'm an advertising photographer and we're staring bankruptcy in the face atm.
Publishers I work for are being made redundant on a daily basis, mags are closing down and as for advertising, well that budget pretty much disappeared a year ago.
It's also a young mans game, you need to spend years assisting and charming clients for pennies... please do not retrain to enable him to do this without making sure he has done his research.

Hi Stella

I read the whole of the other thread with my jaw on the ground. I'm new to Mumsnet too and was blown away by the tide of support, filth, wit and wisdom that came in reply to your OP. You sound lovely by the way & I'm glad you returned with an update because it seems as if your situation has touched a nerve and now a lot of posters here are rooting for you.

I am genuinely astounded that your DP thinks a trip such as he is planning is acceptable - for all the reasons MNers have given concerning the trip itself but in particular when you will have 2 small children under the age of 4.

Mt best friend had her 2nd baby 3 months ago and she is shattered, has mild PND, can barely function - and she has a supportive DP who does all the cooking, half the housework and as much childcare as he can fit in outside of his office job. Plus her 3 year old is throwing daily tantrums because the new baby has turned his world upside down and her DP is invaluable in "parenting" the toddler while she tends to the baby. (Of course he parents both children all the time but you know what I mean - right now the toddler needs a lot of attention that mum just can't provide).

I wish you an easy 2nd baby, but even is DC is easy....How on earth are you going to cope? And why should you have to cope? They are his children too! Did I miss the memo where parenting your children become optional?

If your DP genuinely expects you to look after his children (a baby and a toddler) alone while he swans off to find himself, he isn't demonstrating a great deal of respect for you. You are his partner, not a wetnurse or housekeeper. Partners look after each other, they take care of each other. Partners are a team. The clue is in the name. They do things together, not everything maybe, but the important things, the raising-a-family type things, yes.

I must say as a feminist your predicament has broken my heart a bit. 2009 & she is (still) left holding the baby while he (still) does exactly what he wants.

i think he's engineering this crisis to force a split, tbh. do you think that's a possibility, stella?

I agree Aitch - the whole thing smacks of I want out but I want YOU to say it!

As i said on the other thread. My DH before i met him, was a traveller, been to lots of African countries, climbed K2, Hiked the Grand Canyon, climbed Stromboli volcano..been to S.American jungles.
But in the end he has settled down to familly life.
I think at 40yrs old, 'free spirit' just comes out as 'selfish'.
Just make sure the Life Assurance is all paid up, that's all i can say.
Hopefully some Holy man in India will tell him to grow up and be a man and go back to his familly.
My DH realised that he could not carry on gallavating around the world by himself as he would tell people of his familly and they would always say 'Why are you not with them?'

I agree Aitch. He's looking for a get out clause
What really sticks in my throat more than the lack of respect for Stella (though I think she deserves much much more than this bloke) it's the lack of concern for his children it's just so unbelievably selfish

I don't know that he actively wants out so much as he simply doesn't care whether he's in the relationship or not. He will push for as much as he can get in terms of cash and attention, but when poor Stella has had enough (or has been bled dry) he will move on to the next woman he can convince of his essential specialness without a backward glance.

Ripeberry - I don't think he'll tell people about his children. Cos he would rather be travelling, and it might (possibly??) cramp his style.

We travelled as a family and are planning to do so again. Why can't he do that. Me, and dh, can't understand it at all.

poor stella, if even a quarter of this is true.

Stella, you need to tell him that the most fullfilling, life enhancing experience is upstairs asleep right now and if he can't recognise that simple fact, he won't find it at the top of some mountain in Afghanistan.

"everyone of his mates at work thought it was a brilliant plan, and they wished they could do it".

But they're not doing it, are they.

As other have said you need to make sure you and DC are protected finanicaly should anything happen to him.

Take your time deciding what you are going to do, But make it very clear to him that while he is off finding himself that you will be doing the same at home with your dc and he needs to understand once he comes back there may not be a place for him in your and your DC home.

Actually, I have always had a fair bit of sympathy for people who want more out of life than domesticity and an ordinary job. But there are ways to have an interesting and fulfilling life that do not involve ripping off one's partner and neglecting one's responsiblities - it's not compulsory to narrow your horizons to changing nappies and watching other people have lives on the telly when you have DC. I consider myself a free spirit (though not the backpacking sort, I am too fond of proper plumbing and disinclined to be shot at) and I have a good night out (ie all-nighter, drink, flirting, shagging, loud music) once a fortnight, wander around in rock-band t-shirts and rarely do much housework but juggle several part time jobs and do not leech off friends or family.

Ah, but SGB, I reckon that if you wanted to go somewhere outrageous/do something outrageous, you would at least invite your DH/DP to go with you.

"i am very that he wants to do more trips but he cant fund even this one."

As I understand it, attacking DP's finances is a bit of a red herring: Stella did explain on the original thread that he has a good job & earns a good salary but for various reasons (they bought a flat at the peak of boom, intended to rent out other flat but due to roof falling in couldn't have tenants etc) they don't have much at the moment.

So while DP is being irresponsible in this instance (borrowing money to fund a jolly, considering quitting a job in a recession), it's not true to say that he is permanently sponging off her.

Just making that clear so we don't focus our arguments on "he is rubbish because he never contributes financially" when it would be more accurate to say "he's rubbish because he is comfortable abandoning 2 very small children and doesnt care about Stella's needs" or "he is rubbish because he does no housework and doesn't get up to see to the baby in the night".

I agree with custy

SGB nails it.

I actually thought it was quite a cool thing you were letting him do when I first start reading your other thread.

But, then when you read about the photography, the negative equity, the debt, the horrible way he talks about his family, his utter lack of concern about his pregnant wife's stress levels.

He is not a good guy Stella - a fool trying to be cool. This is not wild or romantic or necessary in that kind of "if I don't - who will" kind of way. its not a life long ambition which needs to be realised now. Its a damaging thing he is doing.

And you can't reason with that, he's a big spoiled brat. He is going to go whatever you say, you just have to decide whether you want to be there for him when he comes back. I hope you aren't.

Stella just another post to offer support and to echo what everyone else has said: he's being beyond unreasonable. I can't believe half the things you've told us, and yet I can completely hear him saying it - my blood is boiling.

Forget the stupid trip, just the 'jacking in the job to be a photographer' thing would be a dealbreaker for me, and smacks of how little research he actually puts into his fantasies plans. There is absolutely no way he'll be able to support himself as a photographer right now. DP has been a press photographer since he was 20, and there has never, ever been a worse time to be in that particular game. There is maybe a handful of photographers working in sports, and because everyone is freelance, it's ruthlessly competitive. There is NO MONEY in it, not on local papers, not on nationals, and especially not on magazines. How much actual realistic research has he done into where he's going to get shifts? Where have his course tutors suggested he find work?

He's running away, and when he comes back, he's going to be just as much of a liability and a worry. Why can't he understand that when you have two children, you don't just have to feed them and clothe them, you have to set them an example about facing up to responsibilities? Whoever said you don't find yourself in India, but staring at a red gas bill, soothing a teething child at 3am in Tooting was absolutely right.

Good luck. You sound lovely.

My suggestion is that you "divorce" him financially. By this I mean that you should formally buy him out of his half of the house and whatever shared assets there are. You mentioned that you were in negative equity so this should actually not cost you anything. You're already assuming the financial responsbility anyway.

At least that way you'll protect your share of the assets and not assume any of his liabilities to fund his trips. Keep a roof over you and the DC's heads sorta thing.

So then if you want to fund him, just give him money whenever you can afford it.

I have no idea what you are getting out of this relationship. Whatever it is, you can preserve it while protecting your own interests and those of your DCs.