Do you resent 'women's work'?

[WornThrough]

Not sure what I am trying to say here but just wanted some perspective on how things are with other people's partners...

I have a six month old DD1 and have recently started having some counselling/therapy because I seem to have reached meltdown in my marriage since having a baby. I believe my psychologist is a good one - she helped me a lot when I saw her briefly quite a few years ago. She is rightly helping me work through some emotional issues I have relating to my own family.

The thing is: I am burning with resentment about the vast majority of domestic and parental responsibility falling to me since DD1 arrived. I'll spare the boring details, but I can count on one hand the number of times he has got up for her in the night, or at the crack of dawn when she wakes to play, tried to put her down for the night, given her a bath, etc, etc, since the very early days when he was on paternity leave...

My psychologist has what I consider to be an old-fashioned view in which she thinks it is amazing how much men (including her own sons) are now involved with raising children, running homes etc. And everywhere I look I see women who seem to expect to take the lion's share of this work without complaint, or who maybe moan a bit but think that it is to be expected because men are different or just like that...

But this makes my head ACHE. I am seriously pissed off that my DH, who is really capable and always pulled his weight, is now proving so shite (FFS, none of this parenting malarkey has come naturally to me, but I have got on with it). I don't think it is in any way unreasonable to expect this work to be shared and, while I accept I need to get better at telling him what I want and need, I resent waking up in a relationship in which I need to start ordering him round like a school boy. I feel really disrespected that he is barely helping me when I need him so much - I am, I am afraid, taking it really personally. I am angry, angry, angry.

Am I alone here? Are there any men who pull their weight out of respect and understanding of their partner? And if not, am I the last drummer left in the Sexual Equality Brass Band?

"but it's like that for all mothers" W.T.F is that supposed to mean?! Yes, being knackered at the weekends is like that all for people who WOH as well, so by that logic it's share and share about when it comes to weekend downtime!!

It feels to me that this psychologist is not the right one for you, for this. As she clearly grew up in an earlier generation and is judging your remarks against that.

Having said that, there is an enormous psychological adjustment to be made by both parents when they become parents and I do think in some ways that adjustment is harder for fathers to make. This is based on (generalisation alert!) the fact that men go fairly quickly straight back to work so life remains much more similar to what it was pre-baby than it does for women. Men generally aren't very interested in babies as they don't "do" anything.

Plus becoming a parent makes you reflect on your own childhood and your parents' attitude to parenting. Presumably his dad was always The Provider and his mum The Nurturer and he is subconsciously playing one role and expecting you to play the other.

If you're going back to work soon I think (a) you need to get this sorted out or you'll go mad and (b) it may naturally begin to sort itself out as you do work which he recognises as work. But trust me, it needs sorting because all that other work is still there!

FWIW, some friends of mine have a two year old dd and I don't think the dad was that much cop in the first six months (not as bad as your DH but did slope off to the Rugby World Cup every weekend after she was born on the grounds "she's bf therefore I can't do anything anyway"). My friend did eventually get pissed off with this and said to him "I feel like your top three priorities are the World Cup, your business and then me and dd" to which he replied "that's still a podium finish".

I'm still waiting for an opportunity to throw that line back to him. Now he's a very hands-on dad.

You need to get some sleep in order to have any perspective on this. He needs time alone with dd in order to bond with her. Therefore, quite simply, you need some down time at weekends. Put it this way: he gets annual leave. You don't.

OP- is the person you see a counsellor rather than a psychologist? Psychologists (I know a few) are not really trained in counselling, unless they have that as additional training.

I tend to agree slightly that you seem to be making a huge deal- judging by the length of your posts- about something as "trivial" as sharing housework, and it may well be that you have underlying issues that need to be addressed.

Either your DP is willing to muck in and give you a hand, or he isn't- either because you are notsetting out the rules clearly enough, and saying in very simple language what he has to do- or because he is a thick, lazy arse who cannot be bothered to a) listen and b) do what you want him to.

If two people really love each other cna care for each other, housework should not become such an issue.

My DH is happy to muck in, but his own untidyness drives me nuts, as does his "standards" of housework. However, he is happy to do whatever i ask.
I think you have deeprproblems with fitting into the role of "home maker" tbh. You said that your mum didn't help you learn to be good at cooking etc as she was rebelling in her way against the 50/60s and wanted you to have an education. Well, the 2 are not mutually exclusive- you can have a degree ( as I do) and be able to cook and make a home, as do 1000s of other women!

It sounds as if YOU are now rebelling in the same way as your mum was, and it's not so much about you "lion's share" but that you are harbouring a deep resentment for some reason about your role at home.

I agree with howtotellmum's post. The OP does seem overly resentful and frustrated at the additional chores and constraints that having a child brings with it.

I have a degree (a very good one from a very good university) and an MBA (ditto) and speak several languages and did a very well paid analytical type job in a prestigious firm once upon a time. But I also have plenty of homemaking skills and I value those just as much as all the other skills I have. Life is made of many, many parts!

I agree BSA- coincidentally, I am a 50s/60s child and my mum is is 20/30s child, so if you look at that scenario, I should be firmly tucked behind the sink with my flowery apron!
Both my DCs can cook- my DS better than my DD in fact- it's not gender or age specific.

Just had to add this- your "psychologist" ( assume she is not a trained BCAP counsellor) should not tell you about her own family, or say what she thinks is accpetable. That is absolutely not what cousnellors should do. Their training tells them never ot talk about their own faily, views, etc etc. Find another one!

dizetsma Sorry to hijack but are you studying a Social Sciences degree? If so what do you intend to do with it afterwards. I have always found this subject matter fascinating but not sure where I would go with it afterwards. Thanks.

OP speaking as the ex of a man who never once got up with his children (both of them), rarely bathed them - never when tiny, and made a massive hoo hah whenever he was asked to take them out unaccompanied - ie became verbally abusive and threatening I am afraid that the only thing that worked for me was to leave him. I am sure and hope that you dh is not like that. Some men just will not help out though. I often see posts on here saying "make him" help out etc, it doesn't always work like that.

I disagree that the OP has too much resentment. I have been a single parent of twins since they were 4 months old (they are now 2.5). I also work full time (part time in office, part time at home around children) and cannot afford hired help with housework. Therefore, I feel I know what I am talking about when it comes to juggling domestic chores and work. As a single parent, I do it all, and I not only don't mind it, I take pride in it. I am very much a feminist, and I do not consider there to be anything 'unfeminist' about enjoying domestic chores such as cooking or cleaning. It needs doing, why not enjoy it?

However, when I was with my twins' father, and was still doing pretty much the same amount, I resented the hell out of doing it all. Anyone who truly has been brought up to believe that housework is the joint responsibility of everyone living in that house of an age to do it (regardless of gender) is understandably furious when the person they are living with leaves all the domestic chores to them. It implies a deep-seated lack of respect as "my needs are more important than yours". There are many people whose POV's I don't agree with, but I have enough respect for them to understand that I have to accept that's how they feel, and use that as a starting point to find a resolution if one is needed. I know not everyone will agree with me, and that's fine. Different people have different world views and different opinions on male/female roles. As long as no one is being abused, all are valid. But this does not mean that the OP has 'issues' because she is so angry. That would seem to totally invalidate her POV and make it out as if it's all in her head. I don't think it is and I totally understand her resentment.

Incidentally, after leaving my ex and before buying my current house, I lived with another single parent for 6 months. We did not discuss household chores once. Nothing was negotiated. And do you know what? It just naturally worked out that we each did about half each. We laugh about it now and say isn't it a shame we both weren't gay! But on a serious point, does it not indeed suggest that we are all MASSIVELY conditioned that housework is women's work.

Just to sound even more contradictory, I have to also say that while I chose my children's father very badly, I know more and more men who genuinely understand that they should be pulling their weight around the house more. I think society is improving on this point. Unfortunately, it will always take some hardliners to really rock the boat at the beginning. I fondly imagine that in 100 years people might read WornThrough's post and be shocked that people disagree with her...

Just my twopennethworth.

The Op is NOT overly angry or resentful IMO. She is perfectly entitled to be very annoyed. She clearly did not sign up for being the 'woman at home' Her partner in many ways fooled her by talking the talk about equal shares on the domestic front and then being unable or unwilling to deliver on it, particularly after the birth of their child.

I had enormous resentment over this in my first marriage and we had no children, As I said it contributed to the breakdown of our marriage. My ex is now much more happily marrtied to someone who enjoys the domestic side of life and who keeps him 'organised' seemingly without any obvious resentment.

I no longer have that resentment because I am married to a man who does not engender this in me. He would never say things like 'that is what mothers do' or assume that. He listens to ME as a person and I try and listen to him. The listening goes hand in hand with being willing to change/try

OP: get a copy of Wifework by Susan Malhausan: it describes exactly what you are feeling. You are NOT alone. Your H feels, deep down, that men are simply more important than women, and that women, however much they might protest, are destined be service appliances and should just suck it up (oh and suck cock when they've finished the hoovering as well).
Dump your counsellor, she's an ignorant bitch and a bigot too. Having a clitoris does not mean you are 'better' at housework.
I have a fully-functioning womb and a pair of tits, and yet my house is a thorough mess. Because I don't like housework, therefore I don't do much. I don't mind the mess enough to want to tidy up when there are more interesting and important things to do. I do have what is often described as a 'male' attitude to housework (it's boring, time-wasting, mostly unecessary shitwork that I would rather someone else died) so I know that the attitude is nothig to do with having a willy. I am happily single therefore it's my choice to have a messy house: if I lived with another adult I would do my share (but probably would have to be nagged a bit).

I think the issue is that however you start out in your relationship, however much you discuss parenting/housework etc and agree that you will have equal responsibilities, the fact is that if your roles change, then almost without realising it's happening, you will tend to fall into this polarised scenario. I think you have to make a conscious effort to not allow that to happen.

For me, that's one of the reasons why getting back to professional work outside the home was hugely important. I think, in a strange way, it also helped that maternity leave was much shorter when I started having kids. These days, many mothers are off work for a full year, and that gives far ,longer for these roles to become entrenched.

It's very easy to be black and white about this issue, and say 'Well, if the husband is out at work for ten hours a day, then the wife is doing ten hours a day working in the home, and once husband gets home from work, then everything should be equally shared'. I don't totally agree with that. There are stresses and pressures about going out to work which mean that some down time is often needed. Working outside the home means meeting other people's deadlines, targets, expectations. You can't do it as effectively if you're having to get up in the night. I am absolutely not saying that the husband should expect to come home and put his feet up and do nothing - far from it- but I think you need to be realistic that if you choose to be a SAHP, then you are choosing to take on the lion's share of the home stuff - just as you are expecting your partner to take all the responsibility of earning and keeping a roof over your heads. Ultimately, being at home can be a grind, it can be incredibly physically draining etc but you don't have the pressure of having to meet other people's expectations. When I was on maternity leave, yes, I had to look after a newborn, a toddler and a four year old, but to be honest, the only deadline I had to meet was getting everyone up and walking the four year old to school by 8.45. And if we were 5 minutes late, so what? It's not the same as being late for work. Piece of cake compared to getting everyone out the door by 7.45, off to nursery and then doing a full days work before coming home and doing all the home stuff! So, yes, it's hard work being a parent and working, but I really believe it makes it easier to have equal roles. You just see things fundamentally differently - you are both responsible for earning and both responsible for parenting and looking after the home.

I think the OP needs to have a heart to heart with her DH about how she feels, because let's face it, not every woman is cut out for being at home all day, and if you're not, it will breed resentment in the long term. It needs open and honest debate about what each partner wants. And keep terms such as 'women's work'out of the discussion, because it's unhelpful language. Housework and looking after children is NOT women's work in the 21st century, any more than earning is men's work.

wornthrought I felt exactly like you when dd1 was 6 motnhs. 'exactly' is even an understatement, it felt like you wrote about me and my dh. Funny enough we exploded wehen dd1 was about 8 months (we did the same when dd2 was 8 months) as I had reached the end of my tether and was absolutely exhausted/fed up/felt conned/hated the life I was leading/resentful of dd1 etc.

It's not that something changed after that but things got easier and I went back to work (which means not much changes in the sharing of the housework just house messier and late nights but at least you ahve a break and time on your own).

I must admit although dh is very good I still feel is not a 50% 50% share at times. Having said that now that I am a SAHM and have adjusted to new life as a mother I am able to see that him going to work and supporting all of us is not a walk in the park either. Although I believe that I had to let go of some ideals (which sometimes I think they were fantasies and other times I think I've given up and become my mother ) I also think that the first few months with a baby are very hard pshicologically (thankfully my dds were good at sleeping so not much physical tiredness ) and make you feel cagey and frustrated and not free and very resentful to dc and dh.
God only knows why we did not split up as I think I was a bit OTT in my 'pointy finger you don't do anything and do not understand my crappy no-life'. actually I tell you why, while I thought we were having a tough time as a couple and could be a make it or mbrake it thing dh never thought it this way and let it pass and thought it was just a phase.

I spoke to few male friends who had children at the same time as me and all felt that from the minute the baby was born it was just an 'it's all about me' and that they had to sit still and strong and not show their emotions, feeling, frustrations, fears and lack of control etc.

All I can say is what you do not want to hear... give it time. It takes a while to both of you to get used to this game, to get the routines right for your family, the share of chores, the time off, etc. we seem to start getting it now after 4 years.

But beware the hardest thing of all is this: you'll have to rethink all the feminst ideas you had till now. All your films you made about yourself and about you two as a couple becaouse they will not fit the reality. Unfortunately it is not possible to live an independent life a la childless Simone De Beauvoire and Sartre when children come along I have sadly discovered.

There's another thread that touches same subject.

It's tough. Ride it on.

Good post Damon. I think we all have this idealised version in our heads - children playing happily, spotless house, no money worries.... the reality isn't like that (at least not for anyone I know!!)

There is no simple solution because life isn't simple. If one parent gives up work, then they're giving up a big part of their life (unless they just had a menial job they hated, but in that case, your life isn't a bed of roses either). If you both continue working, then it may make the relationship more equal and fulfilling but it's damn hard work, and as you say, the house tends to get messier (there are only so many hours in a day!)

Parenting is all about doing your best, while accepting you will never get it 'right'. There isn't a 'right'. And nothing is fixed in stone anyway - relationships aren't static. I think the key thing to start from is: You are both parents. You both have a right, and a responsibility, to be parents. We are not living several hundred years ago when roles were more clearly defined, and where women were limited by not being allowed to do certain jobs. There is no rule book any more - which is liberating, but also brings with it more complexities because in some ways there wouldn't have been so much angst when women stayed home and men did a day's graft. So as long as you start from the point that you are both equal, and that means you can both do childcare and home stuff, and you can both go to work, then it's up to the two of you to sort the detail.

There are posters on this thread who sound angry and resentful just because life entails a lot of work (whether that be housework, childcare or the money-earning sort) if it is to be nice and comfortable and they weren't adequately prepared for the shock!

BonsoirAnna: Bullshit. Posters are angry and resentful because some men still see women as property and servants. ANd then fuckwitted people start claiming that women are servants and there is no escaping the drudgery so suck it up and revere your H because he Earns Money.
Actually, I think one of the biggest problems that the OP faces is that her H not only doesn't do his share, but he criticises her for not doing enough housework: beyond the basics of enough food, clean laundry etc, any adult who lives in a house either does the housework or, if not prepared to do it, shuts the fuck up. Housework is mostly a waste of time and shoud be kept to the bare minimum.

I agree with that - some people just have unrealistic expectations and then harbour resentment because life pan out for them exactly as they'd like it to!

I think as a general rule: pick a good partner . Sounds obvious, but if you are going to have children with someone, check that they share your aspirations and expectations of parenting. I would also recommend having a good few child free years together before embarking on parenthood so you can enjoy eachother. I realise that's not always possible due to age/accidents etc but I think it helps when you have a new baby to have had that period of time as a couple. And also, don't ever think anything is set in tablets of stone. Life is organic! People and situations change and develop. If you aren't totally content with this phase of your life, move forward so that things can be better.

sorry - last post was agreeing with bonsoiranna

solidgold - a woman who pairs up with a man who sees her as property, and then decides to have children with him has got to accept some responsibility for that choice! Unless you believe women are poor frail creatures who don't have minds of their own.

VIolethill, I agree, to a certain extent and many women simply don't accept that sort of attitude from men. However, there is still a lot of propaganda to the extent that women are incompete and failures if they don't have a man to service in their lives and a lingering cultural assumption that women aren't quite fully human and not everyone can withstand the pressure enough to avoid making bad relationship choices.

WornThrough - when you go back to work in a few weeks time you will have a better perspective on this.

If it is a full time job like your DH you need to work out an equal rota of the work when you come home from work, at night and at weekend. It is as simple as that. From what you say, DH has always been good at cooking and cleaning but you hate it. You therefore feel a burning resentment at having to 'do it all' now you are not working. Once you are working again 50:50 has to be the way and your resentment will go away. Dump the counsellor, it is your DH who you need to talk to.

In our house, DW hates cooking so I do it. I do most of the cleaning to as she just find it very difficult because of a medical conditions she has and I find it therapeutic. However, she takes on other responsibilities such as organising the household finances, social activities, holidays, and the washing of clothes and mending. I do the DIY and outside 'man stuff'. She orders food for internet delivery but I do most of the physical food shopping. She gets the kids clothes ready for school and their school bags. I clean their shoes and get their packed lunch ready. We share homework supervision. I mainly play with the boys but she shops for their clothes.

I can do everything she does in the house and she can do everything I do. I will do much more when she goes out to work in January. We do not have a strict rota but when she is working in the home I am working in the home and when we relax, we relax together.

That is where I suggest you need to get to with DH - a 50:50 split of roles and responsibilities. If neither of you have time to do the basic housework then get a cleaner once you are working to relieve some of the burden. Get to bed early as well to get some rest and also to start remembering why you are married. Kids are a huge burden of responsibility but just occassionally take a bit of time off being parents to be adults together.

Just reading this quickly and have to dash, but I feel I must respond to violethill: just to be clear - my DH and I have been married for five years. We have had ample time to enjoy each other and to discuss and agree how things should be when we had DC. Our DD was planned and longed for. I truly do not believe that I could have been more sure he was the right man, and it was the right situation...

But THAT is the very problem: when someone you expected to and who promised to share parenting equally and with a full heart, and who is absolutely capable of doing so, chooses not to and appears oblivious to the effect of that on you and your feelings, it does pull you up short and engender real anger... it does make you feel that ultimately, deep down, that person doesn't respect you... Life IS hard, but you don't expect your partner to casually add to that... because he can...

By the way - "start remembering why you are married" means "because you love and respect each other and are soul mates".

BonsoirAnna, I do agree that my mum's anti-housework approach was not that realistic - everyone NEEDS to be able to look after themselves and do their share of chores in a relationship. In fact, she absolutely more than pulled her weight in in her own relationship - but felt very, very trapped and didn't want the same for her DDs... I think OptimistS is right - I have no problem with hard work, but it is the foisting upon me I struggle with...

Re the psychologist - definitely BACP registered. She is good, I think, but I think this might be a make a break issue in terms of continuing with her...

SolidGold - I adore you.

SG why do you hate men so much? Your posts appear to show that you have a chip on your shoulder about what some men expect from women and why YOU certainly won't be giving it! It would be very easy to put the other side of this bigoted view- that most women want a sugar daddy to keep a roof over their heads so they can swan around all day drinking coffee and lunching with friends, never having to work, or do nothing more demanding than whipping up a sponge cake! Absurd? Yes, but no more so than the generalisation that all men are bastards who just want servicing by women.

I would love to know where you find the "propoganda" that women need men to be fulfilled or survive. Tell me- I am interested!!!

I'm all for open debate, but it's not helpful to label the OP's counsellor an ignorant bitch, just because her opinions may differ from yours ( they should not be part of her counselling role anyway).

There is no instrinisic right or wrong in thismatter- it is all about people's preferences. You view of the world is not the only one- or even the right one, necessarily.

OP- you need to have an open discussion. If you have and your partner seems unable to change, then maybe he should go for joint/couples counselling so he can hear you talk about this in front of a neutral 3rd party. You also need to accept that after giving birth you are tired, you have to adapt to the new role you have, and so does he. His inability to do what you ask shows not so much his lack of parenting skills or domesticity, but his inability to cherish you in the way you thought he would. The only way forward is discussion with him- and if it doesn't change you will need to think hard over whether you want him as part of your life.

HTTM: objecting to male privilege is not the same as hating men. Just like objecting to racism is not 'political correctness gone mad' or 'the end of British culture'. Many men do indeed share the domestic work and childrearing responsibilities with their female partners, and this is increasing all the time as more of the boys who were raised by enlighted, egalitarian parents grow to adulthood and engage in their own couple-relationships and parenting.
However, as any time spent on the relationships section will show, there are a lot of men who still feel that sense of entitlement (the ones who belittle and bully and beat up their wives and the ones who are utterly lazy and selfish: pursuing their own hobbies and interests all weekend and expecting their wives to suck it up) and sadly a fair few women who are letting them get away with it, as though telling them that it's their turn to look after the DC as the wife wants a night out, or that the laundry needs doing and its their turn to do it, will make their cocks fall off.

solidgold - I agree with the post above @ 18:51 and also with many many of your posts and we have had some positive discussions in the past.

Sometimes your posts do come across much more stongly than what you have expressed in the post above though. I often sense it may be motivated by a personal experience you have had. For that reason, I try not to react even though I feel offended sometimes.

Apologies to the OP for the thread hijack.