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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Do you resent 'women's work'?

86 replies

WornThrough · 22/05/2009 17:47

Not sure what I am trying to say here but just wanted some perspective on how things are with other people's partners...

I have a six month old DD1 and have recently started having some counselling/therapy because I seem to have reached meltdown in my marriage since having a baby. I believe my psychologist is a good one - she helped me a lot when I saw her briefly quite a few years ago. She is rightly helping me work through some emotional issues I have relating to my own family.

The thing is: I am burning with resentment about the vast majority of domestic and parental responsibility falling to me since DD1 arrived. I'll spare the boring details, but I can count on one hand the number of times he has got up for her in the night, or at the crack of dawn when she wakes to play, tried to put her down for the night, given her a bath, etc, etc, since the very early days when he was on paternity leave...

My psychologist has what I consider to be an old-fashioned view in which she thinks it is amazing how much men (including her own sons) are now involved with raising children, running homes etc. And everywhere I look I see women who seem to expect to take the lion's share of this work without complaint, or who maybe moan a bit but think that it is to be expected because men are different or just like that...

But this makes my head ACHE. I am seriously pissed off that my DH, who is really capable and always pulled his weight, is now proving so shite (FFS, none of this parenting malarkey has come naturally to me, but I have got on with it). I don't think it is in any way unreasonable to expect this work to be shared and, while I accept I need to get better at telling him what I want and need, I resent waking up in a relationship in which I need to start ordering him round like a school boy. I feel really disrespected that he is barely helping me when I need him so much - I am, I am afraid, taking it really personally. I am angry, angry, angry.

Am I alone here? Are there any men who pull their weight out of respect and understanding of their partner? And if not, am I the last drummer left in the Sexual Equality Brass Band?

OP posts:
poshsinglemum · 23/05/2009 12:00

I always hated housework until I had dd and now I take pride in it as it breaks up the monotony of childcare. But then I don't have a dp so I have to get it done.
Most of my girlfriends who are coupled up and who have young babies feel the same as you. very common i feel.

hercules1 · 23/05/2009 12:00

It makes me want to vomit the whole idea of "womens work". You are not alone, op, but there are a lot of people on mumsnet who believe men are incapable of childrearing and need instructions and are to be fondly laughed at for their pathetic attempts.
Thankgod, I didnt marry a man like that.

In my house there is just work that needs to be done and we both pull together.

howtotellmum · 23/05/2009 12:44

It depends on lots of things surely?

If the man goes out to work and the woman is at home with Dcs, then it is part of her role to keep the home in order. If she doesn't want to do this, then the answer is to get a paid job, pay for childcare, and pay for cleaners. Or any combination of those.

I do believe that generally men are not so fussy over housework and simply don't see what needs to be done. So if it's not up to their partner's standards, they either need to be instructed, or you need to accept their level of slovenliness and save your energy for life's bigger issues.

I don't agree with the women who think their DHs should do a 12 hr day at work, then come home and get stuck into the housework- but neither do I think that a man should sit on his arse whilst the kids are running around and the mum is trying to cook, amuse them, and sort out everything in the house at the same time.

OP- I wonder if the key to this is not so much that your partner is not ( in your eyes) pulling his weight, but more the fact that you regard housework and being at home as unfulfilling nad in some way demeaning?

If this is the case, maybe you should focus on going back to work and paying for help at home and with child care?

DuchessOfRubbish · 23/05/2009 14:58

My DD is also 6 mo old and throughout my pregnancy we used to talk about how it would be and how we would pull together and share all the work. I have been on Maternity leave and he went back to work two weeks after the birth. Well, he does feck all really. Not even when he was off for the two weeks did he really help. Everytime DD cried (inconsolably for days on end it seemed) he would just take it out and me and accuse me of doing 'something wrong' to make her so miserable. I used to be walking the downstairs all night with her in her pram whilst he slept soundly upstairs because he didn't 'do' the night waking. I can't believe the arguments we have had in the last 6 months. We had a relatively row-free marriage for 10 years, and now all of sudden we argue every day. He has NEVER got up for night feeding, to comfort DD, or since she started sleeping through the night, got up with her in the mornings. (He works shifts and more often than not doesn't start work til 2pm) He never helps around the house but expects the place to be in nice order, all the clothes to be washed, dried and put away, also he gets in a right hump if there is no dinner on by the evening. More often than not, it?s me who causes the rows because I get so angry and frustrated with him. When he isn't in work, he spends the majority of his free time on the computer. The other day, he was on there from 11am until 9pm, with a two hour break in the middle because I 'nagged' him to go and get stuff from the shop.
His excuse is that I do 'so well' with her, that he feels any interference from him would upset her.
He is a good Dad though. He always makes sure there is plenty of Nappies, milk, food, wipes whatever here for DD. He does play and sing to her, and even put her to bed once after I had 'nagged' that as I am going back to work soon myself, and I will be working 12 hour night shifts he needed a bit of 'practice' Thankfully DD sleeps well now and only needs feeding at 11pm which I am sure he can manage.
Before I lost my rag completely, I had a chat to a friend of mine and her DH was so similar to mine it was uncanny. The conclusion I reached was - Whatever expectations you had of your DH's Dadtasticness, LOWER THEM. Men will always see babies and housework as 'Women's Stuff' and until they are left alone to cope, you won't change that.
So for the record, you are not alone. Bloody hell! DH has NEVER given DD a bath ? he did ?help? me to bath her in those early days, but now I just get on with it.
Howtotellmum - I don?t find the job of being at home unfulfilling and demeaning, I love being a Mum and I would happily give up work to be a full time mum if we could afford it. I can?t speak for the OP, but I suppose it?s just not what I expected from DH. I always knew him to be supportive and conscientious prior to DD?s arrival. I thought he would help out more just on the odd occasion for me to have a break.

Quattrocento · 23/05/2009 15:06

I think you have to insist that he helps tbh. My DH pulls his weight and more. It's impossible to do otherwise unless of course we were to relapse into some victorian arrangement whereby he hunts and gathers and I keep the home fires burning (bleaurgh)

howtotellmum · 23/05/2009 15:12

DofR- you have every right to be annoyed- he sounds very lazy.

solidgoldSneezeLikeApig · 23/05/2009 17:02

I am always posting this on these threads but here it is again: both partners should have the same amount of chore-free time per week. Work is work, whether waged or unwaged, and being the SAHP doesn't mean the WOHP becomes your boss or your owner, or the 'important' one in the family - and because the WOHP brings in wages does not mean that s/he gets to do nothing outside of the workplace while the SAHP is on duty 24/7 in return for subsistence.

I also think it is important, when DC are small and especially if there isn't a lot of time, to have realistically low standards for housework. As long as there are clean pants and clean plates for everyone and reasonably regular meals, that will do. Keeping a house spotlessly clean and tidy is TBH a soul-destroying waste of time.
Oh, and if you have a DH who not only does no housework but moans about mess point out to him that if he wants al the faffy stuff done he can do it.

TheFallenMadonna · 23/05/2009 17:09

It's not that simple though. Because there are different levels of work. DH's idea of fun is playing in the workshop. Now of course this means he mends our cars and, well, most things that break down. Useful work, certainly. Also fun (for him). There's no way I am going to spend that time doing the housework

I really disagree that there's some simple formula to calculate equality. It's all up for negotiation IMO.

BlameItOnTheBogey · 23/05/2009 17:26

What Solidgold said. We both work and we both split the childcare and chores, making sure that we each get a bit of 'me' time alone over the weekend. (Actually, right now I am pregnant again and in that awful first-trimester-knackard stage and DH is being wonderful and doing everything, so where we usually each have a lie in one morning at the weekend, he is getting up both etc).

I think you need to set out clearly what you need from the relationship and not put up with being treated as the hired help.

verygreenlawn · 23/05/2009 17:39

I know there's been some discussion about saying you feel "lucky" if your OH "helps", but bloody hell I DO feel lucky when I read threads like these and realise how many relationships are so utterly unequal.

DH not only shares everything - and I mean everything, childcare, housework, whatever - he does it on top of a demanding job and he does it willingly. The only thing I have to remind him about sometimes is keeping paperwork in order, bills, filing etc. I'm still bf ds3, and when I've done a nightfeed it's always DH who willingly spends the time settling ds3 while I flop off back to sleep. I do pretty much everything during the week while DH is working, but he takes over at the weekend and most evenings.

Maybe your DH needs a day or so without you to appreciate how much you do. I went away for a weekend recently, leaving DH with all three dcs for a couple of days - I must admit he was almost sobbing with relief when I walked back through the door!

We also recently had to take out some life assurance and it was pretty shocking to look at how much it would cost to replace my services - when you tot up full-time childcare during the week (for extended working hours), cleaning, ironing and that sort of stuff you may be surprised at how much it would cost to hire someone to do this "womens work".

Oh and one last point - with three sons, I'm blasted if I'm going to give them the idea that they can swan off to work when they grow up and leave wifey to wash and iron their smalls. They can pull their weight too!

justaboutspringtime · 23/05/2009 17:43

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Message withdrawn

skidoodle · 23/05/2009 17:58

A man who never cares for, bathes, changes, or gets up with their child is barely a father at all, never mind a good father.

Making sure there is milk and baby wipes? That's fucking pathetic.

TheProfiteroleThief · 23/05/2009 18:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Tortington · 23/05/2009 18:31

just best to be clear - draw up a rota - or give him specific tasks.

Lazycow · 23/05/2009 18:44

Dh does more than his share if I'm honest. Last week we got a note re a daytrip at ds's preschool. Dh has (without me saying anything) made a note in his disry to return the form, told me he can take a day off to go with ds.

I am working PT and dh works FT but the fact is that I have just started my job and am stressed and he is quiet at work so knows it will be difficult for me to even juggle my days let alone take a day off. I only mention this as this is the sort of thing women complain always falls to them.

On the basic household cleaning, cooking, shopping etc he does 50% at least. He did slightly less when I was unemployed for 8 months (until recently. He still did loads though because he understood that I needed to look for a job and that took up all my precious spare time while I was looking after DS.

I am also a bit embarrased about how much dh does and am continually surprised by the conversations by the women at work about how much they do.

TBH though before we married and had ds I was crystal clear about my expectations on that front from dh and he knew what he was getting into when he married me

I had already had one marriage where my anger on this issue (and that was pre-children) made me so resentful it was a major contributor to our divorce.

I often say dh is really one of the very few men I could be married and certainly one of the very few I would have considered having children with to for this very reason.

Lazycow · 23/05/2009 19:03

I do feel that women who say the problem only reared it's head when they had children are probably not remembering properly a lot of the time. I have several friends who complain that since their children came along their dps do very little. Yet I know that these women did much more 'house' stuff than their partner before they had children. It is just that before children the women were mostly OK with doing this stuff as there was less of it to do and they could do it to their own schedule.

The gener dive in most cases was already there, having children just made it more marked as it tends to do.

I DID have this issue in the forefront of my mind when I was deciding whether to marry again. I know I am someone who has real trouble tolerating 'women's work' generally and the only way I find it bearable is to have a partner who takes this work on board. It is also a major factor why I have to WOTH even if it is only part time.

Lazycow · 23/05/2009 19:04

oops I meant gender divide - this keyboard is making my usual crap typing even worse!

EvenBetaDad · 23/05/2009 19:41

WornThrough - if you and DH both go out to work and work equal hours you should both do equal hours in the home.

If DH works out of the home for 10 solid hours during the week and if you have agreed to be SAHM then you should be doing 10 solid hours in the home during the week. Other than that you should still be sharing equally the remaining tasks during the night and at weekends.

Each of you should have equal amounts of rest and relaxation with and without the children.

solidgoldSneezeLikeApig · 23/05/2009 20:22

I appreciate that in some cases the man WOHP thinks that the woman SAHP spends most of the day chatting, watching the telly and wandering around town, but let's not forget that an awful lot of wage-earning jobs involve an awful lot of time spent chatting by the coffee machine, fiddling with oneself, gazing out of the window and forwarding stupid emails about farting. And I don't think it unfair that the SAHP does a greater proportion of domestic work than the WOHP as long as both partners get a reasonably similar amount of time free of either chores or childcare - for instance, as others have said, if the WOHP is doing a monday-to-friday week then each parent should get one weekend morning to lie in.

verygreenlawn · 23/05/2009 20:41

LOL at "fiddling with oneself" - anyone seen That Mitchell and Webb Look sketch about the guy working from home ("have you got past the wanking stage yet?")?

WornThrough · 23/05/2009 20:54

Hello all - thanks SO MUCH for all your posts - very thought-provoking (have dipped in to read them since my OP). Really want to respond properly (and apologies I haven't yet) - so promise to be back as soon as I can get a clear, DH-free run at the computer...

OP posts:
ruddynorah · 23/05/2009 21:01

we don't have this division in our house. but then dh works 7-4pm and i work 5-10pm. so sharing everything goes with that. also, because i work late i always get a lie in at the weekend, until around 10am. dd gets up at 8am, so dh regards that as his lie in as he would normally be up about 6am for work.

when dd was born he took 8 weeks leave, no encouragement from me, it's just what he wanted to do. i bf, but he did all the winding and nappy changing.

currently he does all the laundry. i do all the food shopping. we have areas of responsibility if you like, but there's nothing that the other wouldn't or couldn't do.

we both get the same aount of sitting down time. he gets his every evening and i get mine at the weekend (and when i'm at work ).

VictorianSqualor · 24/05/2009 01:07

Just want to clarify that when I say DP is 'good' it means nothing wrt what I believe my jobs to be but is in comparison to general mankind I come into contact with, just like I would say my children were 'good', my boss is 'good, my cats are 'good'.

Also, there is a lot of 'He doesn't do it right' 'he needs to be told' etc here (I'm one of them!) I think people should realise that all that means is he isn't a mind reader and may have different expectations from you, for example, DP would be likely to polish the children's shoes before school and shoving their lunch in their lunchbag whereas I would be really careful about their lunch and shove their shoes on thinking 'must polish those tonight'. Because we have different standards, doesn't mean either of us are wrong, just different.

WornThrough · 24/05/2009 07:22

Thank God for the chorus here, which is making me feel less mad... Thank you all so much... Apologies if this is long and rambling and not phrased in the best way, just want to blurt all my thoughts out, while I have a chance. Hope this won't be a thread-killer: feel free to skim over this and return to the real posts, which are all so interesting.

I have got used to seeing women around me slave away without much support from their DH/DP- it saddens and outrages me and shocks me, too, that so few people seem to mourn that this still goes on... I guess I have sort of thought that it must be their choice and that, because my choices were different, it would be different for me. Ha!

What is REALLY doing my head in is that my psychologist seems to think that I am using all this resentment as a cover not to address other issues in my life. What I can't seem to get her to understand is that this situation is wrong, unfair and a huge stumbling block in me having a good relationship with DH (sex anyone, when you are so angry you want to bludgen him with a steam steriliser?). That I need to try to explain and justify this shocks me, to be honest - I never felt that I was so alone in wanting some equality on the home front - Thank God, I am clearly not....

DH has actually always been fab in terms of cooking and housework. The reality is that I was always crap, thanks to a mum that was much more interested in me getting through school with good marks than learning all the housewifely arts that she had felt so oppressed by as a child/teen in the 50s/60s. I realise that being so useless is not ideal (this work has to be done and I must take my part), and so in the time I have been with DH, I have put in lots of effort getting better at all this and learning to pull my weight (perhaps too much as he is, to my mind, way too particular, but there you go). But, somehow, somewhere, the balance has really shifted, with DH doing very little of this work and me doing the lions share (and him really quite liking that). I think it is that that makes me resent all this so much - if I had just set out from the beginning with "don't do it, don't want to" I would now be better off. Now, having been respectful of his wants and needs, I find my own have been utterly sidelined...

I love that word dadtasticness, DuchessofRubbish - because I was utterly a victim of that delusion, too. Because DH was domesticated and very family oriented, I always assumed he would be brilliant - it was a core belief I had about him and one of the reasons I was with him. I looked at friends/family with unsupportive, unhelpful partners and believed that would never be me. And there was no sign of that not being the case until I was pregnant (though, Lazycow, you are right - I think I was more indulgent of him when I didn't have a little being who needed me so much, so often). Now, I feel like I have been kind of conned into being someone's unpaid skivvy. That might be too harsh, but I do feel a bit tricked - somehow the balance shifted when I got pregnant and somehow less powerful or able to just bugger off, and I find that disturbing ... and these feelings swimming around are making me resent maternity leave and breastfeeding (which I have loved and felt good about) because they are two key practical reasons that I think contributed to me ending up in this situation...

It's true, I have been on maternity leave, and DH has been working, in a job that often has long hours. And I think that is the reason I have tolerated this so long, but what I have discovered, I think, is that there is a dangerous momentum that creeps up on you - the less involved he is, the less involved he can be because he doesn't know how and I do. By default, it all becomes my job. And, he does have a terrible tendency to feel, come the weekend, that he needs to recuperate - so if there is a sleep in, he'll take it, or time lounging on the sofa, or any other rest and relaxation, without it ever occuring to him that after six months of five hours of very interrupted sleep, I need rest, too (His words: "But it's like that for all mothers.") . So, even when he is here, I am still doing all the work and any attempt to get him more involved has him muttering about how he works so hard. I hate to resent his relaxation, but as I get closer to going to work (in a few weeks), I have suddenly realised that this won't magically change because I am working full time, too. Probably, like most women I know, I will come home form work to do a long domestic night shift - just the thing he is now avoiding because I am on leave...

MinaLoy, absolutely right - his mum is an amazing mum, but does absolutely everything for her boys - to the point of fetching and carrying things and hovering to remove empty plates. Only briefly worked outside the home and didn't like it. Is utterly undemanding. DH, luckily, knows that most women are not like this but - and this is really hard to put a finger on - I still sense that he does not 100 per cent understand the extent to which I, or other women, might have other interests or desires or roles outside the home... He doesn't quite get it, doesn't quite engage with it, doesn't quite believe it somehow... The thing is, his mother has had a dreadful life, but because all the women around his friends and family are pretty much the same, I don't think he has had a chance to see that a dreadful life can be the price you pay for no money of your own, independence or role outside the home... I assume/hope that other men have more empathy than that?

RubySlippers, I have tried to talk with DH but my attempts haven't gone well - I seem to end up doing what Slubberdegullion warns against - being shrill and finger pointy with mad sticking out hair and wild roving eyes. Somehow, I always end up feeling much, much worse afterwards because I end up saying increasingly extreme things in an attempt to get him to understand, which never seems to happen in any case. For instance, I have told him I resent DD1 - this is at times true, it is a small part of my feelings about her, it always relates to a lack of support, I believe this to be understandable. He just sees a big headline "DW resents DD" and seems to think that makes me a crap mother and that he, in my shoes, would never be the same...

Miaonline, I agree with you about being annoyed about prevailing attitudes. I guess as more and more of my friends have children, I see how many are being suckered in to doing it all by partners who don't pull their weight and yet it seems so few people are shocked by this, or mourn for the fact that these women are being worked to the bone... I really struggle wth this sense that most people think that is just the way it should be. I often muse that if I were DH's business partner, he would not/could not treat me with so little regard - how sad is THAT!?.

Dizietsma, you don't happen to have some blogs you can recommend? I guess one reason this is annoying me so much is that, there was a certain amount i could tolerate when it was just DH and me, but now there is a little human sponge in the house I am aware that we are also role models and right now we are very bad ones in regard to the role of women and men, I think.

OP posts:
WornThrough · 24/05/2009 07:25

Ahem. That should be "Six months of five hours of very interrupted sleep a night"...

OP posts: