Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

[oneplusone]

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

Sakura - my due date tomorrow and still no sign of baby. I am dreading my parents visiting. I was hoping to have had the baby by now, so that I would have a couple of weeks before they came. However if I go maximum time overdue, they could be arriving a few days after baby is born.

I had considered asking them not to come until a later date, if I go that overdue. However I think it will be better just to get it over and done with. They are only here for 36 hours and staying in a hotel at night. If I need space with my baby, my DH is going to be firm with them.

Then I don't have to see them again until it suits me. I do believe I am stronger this time and I think you are as well. We just have to remember that it is a time to be selfish and state what we want. Anyone who makes an issue out of this and causes tensions at such a precious time is not worth bothering with.

I am so fed up now and just want my baby in my arms!

AN It doesn't sound "over-positive" at all - it sounded brilliant!!!!

Roseability and Sakura hope all goes well with the birth of your babies.... x

AN I can relate, totally. I was getting a tram the other day and got on on the wrong side and had to get off, wait for the next tram and go back. I was in a bit of a state because of it and the tram conductor had a real laugh at my expense. I brought home to me how to most people this would be a really minor thing to shrug off, but not for me.

I have a real tendency to hang onto negative experiences, to go over and over them.

He used to get very cross with me for this, but DH is really patient these days at talking me through them.

He said to me only today, that something I was dwelling upon was only a moment in time, and has now passed. But to me that feels like leaving behind a long trail of failures.

I am beginning to realise that it is just normal life, that many of my anxieties are centered around unreasonable goals, and expectations and my depression is to do with the seemingly unsurmountable task of attaining these goals. The fear I have of failure is akin to fear of annihilation. One thign I have started doing is to give myself more time. To not leap immediately to someone's request, or to try to do everything in one day, as you say. Patience, rather than panic.

My parents have been away for three weeks now, and that combined I think with the progress I am making in therapy, I am feeling much more calm. I have in the back of my mind that this will not last. That my parents have not gone away on holiday forever. I am beginning to get twitchy when the phone rings.

I feel like a drip for allowing myself to be abused for so long, but I am also determined that this is my life, and I will reclaim it from them, my old family. I have to remind myself how well I did at the last meeting. I didn't react, I did not engage with their games. I would love to be in a place where I could just say that to them, and not fear their response.

AN I can also totally relate, and I think you're right that it comes directly from the horribleness in childhood. Like you say, when you're a child and it just goes on and on and on, all you can do is wait for it one day to be over - and I think what happens when we're adults and in a place of greater safety is that all that trauma that we couldn't allow ourselves to feel at the time finally comes to the surface, and so the tiniest things can seem absolutely overwhelming and unbearable. Also that syndrome of everything going wrong as soon as you say things are working - I know that one so well. I think sometimes that it's because if we've been programmed to believe from an early age that we don't deserve to be happy, which is a normal result of being abused as a child, then the programme keeps on running in the unconscious and so when you challenge it by succeeding somehow, then the programme kicks in with one or several spanners in the works just to get things "back on track". It's like the hard drive on a computer, the way I see it. (Not that I know much about computers !) and part of my "job" as I see it is to re-programme my "hard drive" with healthy programmes that gradually enable me to actually be genuinely happy.

Funny that both you and Pinky use the word "drip" when so obviously neither one of you is, any more than anyone else on here is. We were hurt when we didn't have the power to stop that happening, and we were made to feel that we were being hurt because there was something lacking or bad or pathetic in us - but the opposite is true, the bad/lacking/pathetic stuff was all on the part of our abusers, whatever kind of abuse it was. I think AN you were taught as I was that vulnerability is wrong, and weak, and something to be ashamed of, something to be punished for; I know for years and years I used to compare myself with "hard" girls and think they were so much better than I was, that it was my fault I got hurt because in some way I deserved it, because I was too weak to stand up for myself; or that the things that happened to me weren't that bad and I was weak and pathetic for not being able to get over them. But the truth is that is was that bad; and that I got hurt because I was raised by a family of bullies, and they groomed me to be a sitting duck for any other bullies in my orbit, and I don't have the time to waste any more thinking that that could possibly have been my fault in some way. Vulnerability is not wrong or weak, it is a natural state for a child, especially a girl; what is wrong is for that vulnerability not to be respected and protected.

I think if we do hang on to negative experiences in the present (speaking from experience!) it's because they are reflective in some way of older, deeper issues, and we are hanging onto them because we actually do want to resolve them, and we need that awareness of them in order to do so. People who say "oh just let it go, forget about it" ususally have issues themselves but their way of coping is to bury them; but the issues are still there and could surface in some way - whether as an emotional crisis or ill health or other negative situation - at any time. What about the courage we display in facing these demons and trying to do what many people are just too scared to do, ie go back and revisit that place of extreme vulnerability that we were forced to inhabit as children? It's not being a drip to do that. And it's not being a drip to make that journey at a pace that you can handle.

Lemony, in answer to your question a while back, no, I don't have contact with my brother any more - it's been a few years now. I agree with you totally that some people are entirely beyond being reasonable, everyone in my family being that way. Which is why I've given up trying to persuade them of the logic of my arguments - I used to think that if I could only find the right words, they would listen to me, but once I realised that they would deny what day of the week it was to "prove" me wrong, I stopped trying, and it's wonderful not to be wasting that energy any more.

I was very interested by that story you told about your mother observing your interaction with your DS (I think!) and saying you pushed her away and she felt rejected by you when you were a baby. To me that sounds like an absolutely classic case of projection, where she projected her feelings of being unloved by her own parents onto you, ie you "became" her parents for her - I think that happens very often, and I know even after years of work, I still had to fight that in myself when DS was born. When you have simply no template of being loved and needed just for who you are (I do have it with DH but I had 40 years of not having it before I met him so the pattern runs deep), it is very hard to take in that this little person really loves, adores and needs you desperately. Although there has never been a situation of no bonding at all, those early weeks, especially before he could smile, I would quite often look at him and be scared, almost convinced he didn't love me, it still lingers a bit even now sometimes. Even though I sense deep down how totally he loves me, and he's a very affectionate and demonstrative little boy. I know objectively and intellectually that a child's love for its mother is all-encompassing and automatic, even if the mother is a crap mother (and I certainly hope I'm not that!) - but emotionally it is still a huge novelty for me to believe somebody loves me that much. I'm just so used to not being loved by the people closest to me, and my new family has only been around for such a short time in comparison to my old family, so I suppose it's logical that it will take time to rewire my brain into the new way things are.

Anyway, in saying that I think that kind of projection is common and understandable to a degree, I am not justifying or excusing your mother, I hope you realise! It was still her job to love you unconditionally and to do the work somehow to make sure she met your needs, that she was the adult and the parent and behaved like that. Which it doesn't sound like she did. Or does. I think a common theme among people on here is that our parents had us to meet their own needs, and in many ways wanted us to parent them rather than the other way around. I was always the mother emotionally with my own mother, never the other way round, tho i never got any kudos or thanks for it. But now I am starting to feel quite proud of the mothering I am giving my own little boy, and I think some of it is starting to come through to me as well - I am giving myself the mothering I never had, both in the therapy-related work I do and in the job of mother I do. It feels good.

One last thing - AN, I've thought this a lot, and you were talking about your relationship to other women/girls recently - well, I do think it must have been a real double whammy for you, a double betrayal - to be abandoned first by your birth mother, physically abandoned; and then emotionally abandoned and neglected by your adoptive mother - that's really hard. And then your birth mother let you down again, didn't she, when you met her? So it's a triple whammy even. Just wanted to say that. Oh, and that I agree with your therapist - be very, very cautious around your brother. It's very hard for people really to take responsibility and change like that. I know you feel bad about promising him support and then maybe not coming through, but you owe him nothing; he is the one with a huge amount of reparation to make to you, not the other way around. And it sounds like he's still being quite manipulative and trying to be controlling; well done for only doing what isn't going to cause you stress.

OK, essay over
night all x

oh yes and Rose and Sakura may I second everyone's good wishes for the births and the new baby time! thinking of you both and hoping toxic mil's and gm's don't get to you too much lots of love xxxx

Yes I thought I had posted this already but I can see it's not there (have been writing and deleting posts quite a lot lately).

I'm really hopeful that Rosability and Sakura will have a positive birth and 'baby moon'experience, and send best wishes, too.xx

So my GM is trying to manipulate and push my buttons. I am now 3 days overdue and fed up and hormonal anyway.

I spoke to her last week and she in formed me she would be packing some extra clothes so that she could stay a few days extra when baby is here. We have already discussed agreed visiting dates and times (as little as possible). Don't worry guys, she WILL NOT be staying any longer. My DH will be telling them to go when time is up!

She phoned again today and DH answered. We have caller ID and for some reason the number didn't come up or he would have ignored it. He was barely civil to her. She told him she would be phoning everyday to check up on me! Well I will just be ignoring her calls then! She is paranoid we will have this baby and not tell her I think. I won't be telling her when I go into labour. She will get a phone call once baby is born.

I expressed my concern about going maximum time overdue and thus them arriving just when tiredness, breastfeeding problems and hormones hit me. She said they would lose a deposit on the B&B they will be staying at. So once again only thinking of themselves and money and not what is best for me.

To be honest I have decided against telling them to come at a later date anyway. I would rather get their visit over and done with. The timing means my adoptive father can't get much time off work and they will only be here for 36 hours (and this time won't be staying in our house). My DH will be here and will back up my need for space and rest.

Isn't it awful that I am thinking like this when I should be relaxed and concentrating purely on the birth ahead. Still it isn't nearly so bad as it was when DS was born. I still felt obligated to them then.

Still thinking of you all and do read your posts. I am being very selfish and not responding as I would like but I am so tired! Any of you that went overdue with your pregnancies, I sympathise!

AN, I'm so glad that things in my last post were helpful to you, lovely to hear that what I said on vulnerability was comforting to you, whatever comfort we can bring in this world is wonderful! It's a topic I've worked on a lot with my therapist, she was the first to point out that vulnerability was effectively criminalised and punished in my family (because they're so emotionally inadequate that they're really scared of vulnerability), and how wrong that is. It's really helped me a lot to see how things really weren't my fault.

I also want to thank you AN for writing what you wrote in the first place (and all that you write) - you write with such amazing honesty and integrity, and so much of what you say resonates with me. Literally, that scenario you described, of getting panicky about doing something fairly ordinary but frightening to you, then cancelling, feeling relieved, then disappointed at having missed out - my goodness, I know that whole sequence of events so well! As I work more and more on the (childhood) past, things like that happen less, but they can still happen, and they have happened a lot in the (more recent) past. And just to see it written down like that, to know that it's not just me feeling crazy about stuff like that - well, that too is so comforting. Because not many people do admit to or talk about stuff like that in RL.

I think that is one amazing thing about this thread - if there are so many things that are common to so many of us, then it's extra confirmation that the issues we have, the struggles we have - often with just everyday life, things that many people take completely for granted - are a direct result of what happened to us as children. I read other people's posts and I think, well, it's not just me feeling that/thinking that/going through that; and given that my whole family made me feel like an outsider with them, and in the wider world around me, made me feel like I was the weird, difficult one - this is really, really important. It confirms that there really is a chain of cause and effect - you suffer a lot of emotional abuse and consequently you have issues and problems in your life, it's not just some random defect in the way you are as a person.

I'm trying to think of things that other people have talked about that I can say "yes" to - so many I can't list them all, but here are some, in list form as a tribute to you, AN

• massive levels of anxiety
• feeling unable to cope with apparently simple, mundane things, on a regular basis;
• not being able to do housework(!) [I finally got a cleaner when DS was a few months old and totally recommnend it!];
• not having fulfilled my potential (anywhere near) in a work environment;
• eczema (from the age of 6 months, and asthma too, but both now almost non existent)
• being bullied in the workplace/by boss
• losing sleep over things I've said/done and the possible consequences of them, even in the most benign of situations, eg this forum

-- needing to go through loads of rejections and let downs before finally being able to cut off from my family, and then still having to deal with the guilt

• waking up with a feeling of dread (for as long as I can remember but HOORAY! FINALLY shifting now!!!!!)
• perfectionism/terrible fear of making mistakes
• paralysing fear of failure
• sense of abandonment so deep it's like a fear of annihilation
• call screening/not taking calls
• not replying to letters from family members
• feeling excessively guilty for the occasions I have hurt others, even though my choices were entirely conditioned by my own victimhood at the time
• feeling the guilt and shame myself that those who abused me should have felt
• having some really dark and down days still even though things are largely vastly improved
• death wish thoughts/feelings (that first became conscious when I was 15 and have been there on some level or another ever since)

oh the list goes on and on! And every time I read that someone else is dealing with that too, it really helps. So thank you to everyone for just having the guts to post on here.

Smithfield what you said a while back in response to me talking about being the scapegoat/failure - you said about how one's whole identity is wrapped up in that when that's the case - well, that's just stayed with me so much. That has been my (partially unconsious) identity for ever, and what makes it so very, very hard to move on. It's only now I'm beginning to see how far I HAVE moved on, because that identity has been so deeply ingrained in me and even when I started succeeding at turning things around, the feeling of being a failure persisted really stubbornly. So a big part of the job I'm doing now is integrating the fact that I'm NOT a failure, I'm NOT their scapegoat any more, and trying to absorb/create my new identity - that of a successful, thriving person with the power and the potential to change even more. There are still some very dark areas in my life, which I do want to address, but in so many ways the life I have now is a really, fundamentally good one. And it's a SHOCK to the system to realise that!!!

Rose, very sorry to hear about the stress your GM is putting you through. Leopards don't change their spots is the phrase that springs to mind. She's never put you (or her daugher/your mother, I should imagine) first in her life, and I doubt she's going to start now. I'm really sorry you have to deal with this now, when childbirth makes you so vulnerable anyway. Please do use your DH to fend her off as much as possible, it's great that he'll do that. And don't worry about not responding on here, we know you're otherwise occupied! Guess you and Sakura won't have much time to read let alone post once the new LO's are here. And I hope it happens for you soon!!

BoptheAlien and AN - that list, gosh I have felt or do feel so many of those things! It is such a relief to know it is a result of my childhood and not because I am mad, or a bad person.

This thread has been invaluable to me during this pregnancy and I really believe has helped me to enjoy the pregnancy more and be more confident about my needs. I also have bonded better with this baby than I did with my DS in utero (although I adore him now!).

My MIL just phoned and I couldn't hide my grumpiness and frustration at being overdue and fed up with this pregnancy. Typically I felt 'bad' afterwards, like I shouldn't have shown these emotions. So I texted MIL to apologise. I felt the dreaded G word (guilty)

She responded with this lovely text 'you are only human. I really understand and you can certainly off load to me anytime. You are not a grump. Just frustrated.'

What a revelation! Now if I have ever expressed emotions to my GM or adoptive father, it has been dealt with very dysfunctionally. Either belittled or ending in accusations of me being bad tempered and over sensitive.

You see I think a lot of us struggle with this in our toxic families. We don't have that safe cocoon in which we can express ourselves and not be judged. Thus we feel guilt and analyse every reaction we have.

My MIL was right. It is perfectly understandable that I feel tired, frustrated and hormonal at this stage!

Rose that message exchange between you and your MIL sounds great- normal, as thigns should be. I am very pleased for you!

I must also echo what others have said- do not be worrying about other people, this time is for yuo and your baby.

Bop yes I tick those boxes, too. Except I still have yet to be free of my old family.

My parents came home this weekend, and straight away it is business as usual. Have messages on both house and mobile from mother. SH wants to come over for a 'chat' one evening. She sounds miserable and angry, and like she is talking to a business client she has a grievance with- it's all 'i will await your prompt reply' blah blah. AT the end she says 'I hope you are all well' yeah right, sure she does, I can feel the love, mother.

Three weeks of her being away. Ok. I have been dealing with issues, but I have not had that shitty utterly depressed and powerless feeling. Until now. Therapist always says I have a choice about how I feel, that mother cannot make me feel a certain way.

I do feel a bit better than I would normally. I am managing to keep at bay the notion that I have done something wrong. But it's just the knowledge that I am now going to have to speak to them and wade through more of their emotional sewage. I'm sorry for my language.

As ever, am now at a loss for how to proceed.
My immediate notion is to ignore and hopefully never see them again, but not sure that is really workable!

Im in a bit of an odd situation myself.
My siblings recall acutely memories of our childhood, indeed they say that i got the majority of the brunt of it...i have no memory of what they tell me at all.

They are exasporated when they tell em stuff then say "do you not remember that?"
i dont.
I remember some stuff, but it hasnt affected me like it has them.
My sister for eg is absolutely vicious in her conviction that she absolutely hates our mother. My other sis is the same about my dad and lesser about my mum, but still hates her.

Any one with experience of maybe shuting stuff out?

Just wanted to clarify something from my last post - when i said my list was a tribute to AN, I meant the idea of a list was inspired by you, AN, as you have done a few lately and talked about how much you like them, not all the contents of it! The contents are all things that lots of different people have said. Just in case there was any confusion...

Rose - I'm glad if the list was helpful to you, and that text from your MIL was so lovely - sometimes I almost forget that there are actually nice, non toxic parents out there, who do do the right thing and care like proper adults/parents should! There do seem to be so many of the other sort...

Pinky - please don't apologise for you language, emotional sewage is very, very apt and that's a phrase I could use for my family too. Sorry to hear it's all starting up again. "I will await your prompt reply" - I am speechless! She sounds as mad as my mother.

sunburntats - I don't have your experience of shutting things out, so am not best qualified to answer you, but there wewe things in my childhood that I never actually forgot but it took me a while to see them differently and realise how wrong they were, if that's any help. I'd normalised them so much I didn't think there was anything wrong but eventually things started to push me to question them, and i realised they were very, very wrong. If your siblings have such strong memories, then presumably stuff happened; but it's really up to you how you deal with it or where you go with it. Only you can decide if you want to investigate what may be in your unconscious or not; only you have the right to make that decision.

Lots going on for me here but have to go as DS waking up.

Bop I am in a bit off a mess here.

It is all happening to suddenly for me.

DH has been on the phone to mother today. She is on the verge of a nervous breakdown, so she says. All because of me. Sending her text messages when I am too busy to phone (she does this with sis so I don't see the problem), asking her to make arangements- times, dates etc. when we can meet up- this is all destroying her. SHe was even trying to get him on side- 'we've all had problems with Pinky, haven't we?'

She has loved and cared for me all this time and I am repaying her with nastiness, ingratitude, hostility.

She can't sleep, her world is falling apart.

And I suppose in a way it is.

He has tried his best to get through to her, that all we want is for her to make arrangements with us that are mutually convenient as regards visits, and to accept that sometimes when she phones I will not be able to take the call, thatwe have three small children and sometimes I am just too darned busy.

I don't know what to do. She doesn't want him to ring her again, she wants me to ring her.

She is still holding out, she wants to get to me still.

My therapist thought that DH speaking toher might do the trick, but I think he may have underestimated her, or else he was trying to soften the blow for me.

I am going to have to stand up to her and I don't know if I'm ready.

Really sorry to hear this Pinky, although it does show how far you've come that she's reacting this strongly. I know it must be really terrifying when as you say you don't know if you're ready, and I know you've only been working on this stuff for a relatively short while, so I'm not surprised you don't feel ready - and it's NOT YOUR FAULT that you don't! But unfortunately she seems to be forcing the issue.

The one thing is, you don't actually have to phone her. I know she's doing the massive emotional blackmail thing, really massive, but you don't have to actually actively do anything, you can just continue to not phone her (which is easier in a way than having to do something) and physically there's not a lot she can do about that! BUT having said that, if you can't withstand the emotional pressure and you do feel you have to phone her yourself, then please don't assume that means you're weak; she's been systematically undermining and disempowering you for nearly four decades, IIRC, and you can't turn that around and start standing up to her overnight.

If you feel strong enough then you could just not contact her at all, neither you nor your DH. But I appreciate that is very radical and like I say I know these patterns can't be undone in a short while. Would it help to think through the possible outcomes of the various options you have (calling her, not calling her, DH calling her again and so on) and imagining how you would feel after each scenario? Is another option for your DH to go more on the offensive than the defensive - say that this is starting to cause you a lot of stress and upset and his primary concern is your wellbeing and that of your DCs, and that if she can't respect that then she's not being a very good mother (lol!) - well, I don't know if anything like that is at all feasible, but I know for me that if somebody else publicly stood up for me and defended me like that it would mean a great deal. But that's a VERY big ask, as the football pundits on the sports progs my dh watches always say.

I do know how awful it feels as my mother and father turned up unexpectedly on Sunday; it's a different situation as they wouldn't do the overt emotional blackmail, their forte is pretending that it's not that big a deal and nothing is really the matter and they never act like it really means that much to them; but the unspoken emotional blackmail and the implication that I am the problem and they are the loving parents trying to be reasonable is as loud as if they shouted it from the rooftops, or took out a full page ad in the Guardian (their paper of choice, hypocritical leftie social conscience bastards).

I didn't see them, anyway. Was out whey they first turned up, Dh told me he saw them on the video entryphone, he didn't speak to them; they came back a couple of hours later and again we didn't answer or let them in. Which felt like exactly the right thing to do. But it still left me very wobbly, although the effect didn't set in till the next day, and has been less severe than on other occasions. I have repeatedly asked my mother not to contact me, and told her explicitly that whenever she does it destabilises and upsets me and that DS bears the brunt of that, but she still pretends that I haven't said these things and if they keep on pretending that we're a close loving family and they keep pretending they're loving parents, then something will magically change and she will be happy again. She still pretends that when she gets in touch it's because she "cares" and a proof of how much she loves me, even though I have told her that unless she were to contact me with something different to say than what she's always said, it just makes things worse for me. She gets in touch to try and make herself feel better. Our mothers are alike in their utter selfishness. (I want to add that my parents live a good distance away, and it was clear from the note they left that they had come here for some other purpose and were just "fitting in" this visit on the way home, I know for a fact that they didn't travel all that way actually to see us. They did it so my mother can wring her hands and say "oh we've tried, we've tried everything, but Bop won't even talk to us"; they didn't even try to call my mobile even though as far as they knew we were all out or even away, which shows just how little commitment there is to actually trying to overcome the estrangement.)

And it is very, very hard to go against her; it has taken me years and years of work to get to this point so Pinky you really really have my sympathy for being put in this position at this stage. I do think a lot of the fear is to do with the child in you who DOES still want to believe in her. It is so very painful to see and feel that your mother wasn't a good mother, to feel it and understand it on a deep, emotional level. It brings up all the emotional abandonment you suffered as a child, and that is NOT easy to deal with, especially when you are being a real mother to real DCs as well!

I hope it helps to know there are people in your corner, anyway, however little anyone esle can actually do to help.

Take care and good luck......

Bop thank you. DH found talking to my mother so draining I'm not sure he will do itv again. I am going to leave it for a bit and have a think. I would love someone to say to her that the problem is not me and she should not speak to me/about me in this way.

thank you so much you have been a great help.

pinky Grrr Your mother. She makes my blood boil so no wonder she has the impact she does on you. But then the way she behaves reminds me so much of my own mother.
Firstly I echo everything Bop has written.
She is right you dont have to do anything.

If you look back at my posts when I first cut her off, she was laying the guilt on with a trowel even developed a breast lump.
Your mother is panicking Pinky. She sees her hold and manipulative control over you diminishing and that frightens her. I think if you see this for what it is it just might help you because I think at the moment you are seeing her as the all powerful mother that she was. She no longer has the power, the power is yours and what's more she knows it.
Stay strong you can do this Pinky. You are feeling all the anguish and pain you would have felt as a child when you felt the threat of your mother's emotional abandonment whenever you weren't compliant with meeting her needs.
She is pulling out all the stops now isnt she. You can get through this and we will all help you.

bop sorry to hear about your mother turning up. You sound like you have dealt with it amazingly well?
I dont know if I'd be that strong if my mother turned up here.
If she ever did it would be for the same reasons. To prove she is a good mother but only in passing.

'I do think a lot of the fear is to do with the child in you who DOES still want to believe in her. It is so very painful to see and feel that your mother wasn't a good mother, to feel it and understand it on a deep, emotional level. It brings up all the emotional abandonment you suffered as a child, and that is NOT easy to deal with,'

How very true this is. It is the crux of it all isnt it? The ambivelence of feeling the hatred the sorry and the wishing that none of it were true.