Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

[oneplusone]

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

[roseability]

Hi there. My laptop has broke so posting this from my phone!still reading and will post soon

[colorado]

am long-time lurker on this thread/
am analyst so like to read you folks out of professional interest.
feel compelled to post for first time. jeez louise, this has gone dysfunctional! BOPAlien, am considering reporting your post because it was a personal attack on another poster. could make your point without repeatedly calling someone a bully and bashing them. is it so bad that spicysauce expressed anger at another poster being pass aggress? hardly bullying. i think you're too quick to 'see' bullies. wanttostartafresh's ticking off led to several other posters besides spicysauce worried they had unintentionally offended/ wouldn't have happened if wantostartafresh had just focussed on her feelings alone. interesting that with all the apologies they have been, none ffrom wanttostartafresh for indirectly upsetting her friends. she's too busy throwing herself a pity party. everyone on this thread has been a victim, doesn't stop them from stepping up to plate and saying sorry rather than blaming past for avoidance and pass aggress behaviour. also interesting Wanttostartafresh that you accuse someone of dumping their stuff on you, when she;d just been judgmental at worst. had hardly made personal attack!/ that was very telling about you, was case in point wrt judgmetns made about you. those judgements wre not way off base. your approach to your sisters does seem very childlike and very self-obssessed. spicy merely commented on what others like me have thought before. cannot get growth just by analyzing others behaviour. you read your posts back, there are a long list of people who have done you wrong: mother, father, middle sister, youngest sister, friend, husband, motherinlaw. quite telling that minlaw's 'nastiness' was not picked up by her son until she was nasty to you. now you can add mean woman on worldwideweb to your list. i hope that having others to feel mad at gives you comfort, but i advise you work harder at looking at self before telling others they have unresolved issues.
all of us have unresolved issues, is part of human experience.

[roseability]

Colorado - Have reported your post because I do not feel comfortable with the idea of someone reading my posts just for 'professional interest'. This is not what this thread is for. Especially when you finally do decide to post after lurking for so long, it is an attack on a particular poster.

Indeed this thread has been a save haven for people to write down thoughts and feelings they might feel difficult expressing in real life. WTSA has never, as far as I can remember, challenged another poster's view of their family and situation as hers was a few days ago.

We come here for validation of our feelings because we don't have the inner confidance to validate our own feelings. This is because we were bullied, manipulated and let down by our parents. I for one have found this thread hugley helpful over the last year in conjunction with therapy.

So for example I would never tell someone that they should view their family in a different light or that they shouldn't view physical ailments that have been caused by huge amounts of childhood trauma and stress as akin to physical abuse.

It may not be bullying but it invalidates another's feelings about their own situation. We have had enough of this from our own dysfunctional family.

In one post Colorado you have called WTSA 'childlike' and 'self obsessed'. That she is throwing herself a 'pity party'. This is NOT language we use on this thread and I am very angry that you have potentially upset WTSA who is very vulnerable. She has been very supportive to me over the last year. I will be reporting any further such posts and language

[FabIsGoingToBeFabIn2010]

roseability - I agree with you and won't be posting anymore on this thread.

[roseability]

The post has been officially reported. I expect Mumsnet to deal with the matter or I suspect this thread will sadly finish.

[OrdinarySAHM]

We can't really control who reads MN posts and for what reason. Can we stop people saying judgemental things? I'm not sure whether we can. Some people want different people to write about different judgements to help them see their issue from all sides. Other people get upset by it.

I suppose MN could designate an area where you aren't allowed to say judgemental things, for people to use if they are not one of the people who likes it. Some issues, like the ones written about on this thread, are really sensitive, so most people have been careful not to say judgemental things on here and there has been an unwritten rule about it, but this hasn't been an official rule.

How about a 'Judgement free zone' then MN? People who just want a bit of empathy and nothing else can post on there, and if they don't mind being challenged about how they think, or would like to be challenged, they can post on the other sections and accept that some people may have strong feelings which oppose their view of things.

[FabIsGoingToBeFabIn2010]

To post that they are just reading for their own profession interest and then to slag off other posters is just not on. God help the people she is supposed to be helping if she feels like she seems to with her post.

A judgement free zone wouldn't last 5 minutes on MN.

[OrdinarySAHM]

A judgement free zone could work if MN monitored it and could ban people from that area who make a judgement? There must be some IT stuff they could do to prevent usernames who have broken the rule from posting in that section again?

[FabIsGoingToBeFabIn2010]

They are not here all the time though. Where were they when milkmonster was posting about giving her baby medicine and several of us where very concerned about the child?

I feel differently about this thread now.

[OrdinarySAHM]

I must admit I would find it surprising for someone in a counselling type profession not to use cleverer language which gets their message accross in a non confrontational way and makes people think and challenge their own views rather than inflaming the situation even more!

[roseability]

calling someone 'childlike' and 'self-pitying' on a thread such as this is more than judgemental. It is downright insensitive

I am just a little sick of the extremes that the 'right to an opinion' is taken. Sure on a thread like 'am I being unreasonable' it is acceptable but not here and I am going to damn well stick by that. On here we have a right to an opinion but not if it invalidates another's feelings or hurts them in any way. It is not about being right, but about respect and empathy for other people

We all judge people. I am sure the picture I have in my mind of what the posters on here are like is different from reality but I
inherently accept that we have all been abused/treated badly by our family and that has had negative impacts on us.

I am beginning to suspect some trolls are lurking on here anyway and that makes me feel uncomfortable.

[roseability]

Also the reference to 'you folks' is highly suggestive and inflammatory. I am not happy with the post and one thing I have learnt on this thread is to start trusting my feelings and mysef a bit more. Hence my reason for reporting it with no hesitation that I am being over sensitive (ironically through my progress in therapy and on this thread!)

[FabIsGoingToBeFabIn2010]

I am with you 100% roseability. This thread is different from the rest of MN.

[therealsmithfield]

I feel really at this whole lastest development I really do.

This thread has been running for 3 years perhaps longer and has had some of the strongest most empathic women I have ever come accross posting on it.
This thread also got me through some of my darkest days over the last few years. Thanks to the likes of Ally90, sakura and Pages and you OSAHM.

What concerns me is there will be other lurkers who may have posted, needed to post and probably wont now. Indeed may not even have the opportunity to do so if this thread is withdrawn.

We shouldnt need a 'non judgmental zone', why should we when in three years or more there has only ever been one other incident of judgment from poster 'outside' of this thread.

For the most part posters on MN as a whole have respected the 'unwritten code of conduct' linked with the thread that many of us have spoken about.

But are we really going to let one person break up a long running thread which has been the source of comfort to so many?

I have my own thoughts on the post we are talking about, but I would agree with osahm . I doubt very much a therapist would use such language. A therapist is supposed to do what we have all been doing on this thread for so long...validate other posters and make them feel as though someone is finally on side and 'gets' where they are coming from. Plus a therapist that had been following this thread for so long would recognise the vulnerability of the posters on here. It would be completely irresponsible of them. It could push someone over the edge to log on and read something like that FGS.

IMO if the poster 'is' a therapist they should be struck off.

I tend to agree with Rose however and the post has TROLL written all over it.

wtsa I really hope you are OK.

[wanttostartafresh]

Hello all. Rose thank you for your support, i really do appreciate it.

I had been very upset by Spiky's posts to me and to be honest i didn't know how to respond. I was caught off guard as like TRS said this thread has been a sanctuary for me for nearly 3 years now where i have felt i can be totally honest about how i feel and know i will not be judged and criticised, if not necessarily always understood. So when spiky came along and appeared to be giving advice but was at the same time very critical of me, dismissive of my feelings and judgmental about my choices i was caught unawares. At first glance she appeared to be somebody who had been through a similar experience to all of us on this thread, but to me her posts immediately stood out as very different to everyone else's on here. NOBODY in all the time i have been on this thread has ever posted in the way she has, and i am sure there are plenty of people on here who simply cannot relate to my experience or my way of dealing with things. But the one thing everyone has so far had in common on this thread is complete respect for each other even if we might not understand another poster's feelings/opinions/decisions.

Perhaps we can all too easily forget that this thread can be read by anybody, because it does sometimes feel like we are in a private room all by ourselves. I remember not so long ago this particular thread was mentioned in a couple of national newspapers, including the Daily Mail. Somebody mentioned trolls and i suspect that spiky and colorado may both fall into this category. I don't think spiky is genuine although she clearly has enough knowledge about this subject to get away with posting something credible enough to appear as if she belongs on this thread.

Perhaps she wanted to make a personal attack on me because she knows me and my family in RL. I do sometimes think when posting that there are enough details on here about my family that anybody reading who might know me and my family might realise who i am. But I am not ashamed of anything i have posted on here. It all comes from the heart and if somebody wants to attack me because my posts make them feel uncomfortable then that truly is their problem.

It would be a real shame if this thread came to an end because it has been a real life saver for me at times and that is no exaggeration and i know it is a very important outlet and 24 hour source of support for the people who read and post on here.

I guess it's up to all of us to decide what we want to do from here but i think this recent episode is a wake up call that has reminded us that this thread is out in the public domain and is not actually the private sanctuary we believed it to be.

[quietlydrowning]

Message withdrawn

[wanttostartafresh]

TRS thanks for asking and yes i am ok now, but i was definately very upset over what has been happening on this thread. Luckily i am in a much stronger place these days than i have been in the past but like you said, these attacks could have been enough to really pull me down completely not so very long ago.

Bop i hope you're ok. Colorado is clearly a troll and i think you were spot on in your post to spiky, glad her 'disguise' didn't fool you.

[quietlydrowning]

Message withdrawn

[wanttostartafresh]

qd, even if it was in chat it could still get invaded by trolls?

I suppose i did kind of forget anyone could read it because it had felt 'private' for so long, nearly 3 years.

[therealsmithfield]

Just a question, but how do we even know if Colorado and spiky are not one and the same?

It just didnt sit right with me at all.

I am happy to move to chat if that is what everyone would like to do?
This one is almost at capacity anyway so we would have been starting thread No 7 anyway.

wtsa Am glad you are ok. I felt uncomfortable over the first post which is why I posted from my own viewpoint.

bop Sorry neglected to ask after you as well. How are you doing? I truly hope we haven't lost you over this.

[wanttostartafresh]

TRS, i guess we won't know if they are the same person. It's easy enough to namechange and keep posting.

I'm happy to move to chat as well.

[OrdinarySAHM]

In case it is soon to be the end of this thread I want to say thank you so much everyone for 'listening' and supporting and advising all this time. It has helped me hugely! My life is improved!

[leavingonajetplane]

Ive been on mumsnet for months and just discovered this thread tonight. I put "alice miller" into the search box on the off chance a poster or thread covered the issues i'm reading about/dealing with and found this. Wow. I was dismayed to see from the last few posts what was happening, but would not be put off by a poster who seems to have their own agenda (and sounds nothing like a therapist)and would like to follow this thread wherever it moves too. Even just skimming down it a lot is jumping out at me and the bravery and support in this thread seems something quite different altogether.

[BopTheAlien]

Hi all. I was worried about things kicking off when I posted my original post, tho I didn't foresee quite how bonkers it would go. But I have to say I am still really glad I took a stand on this and am feeling proud of myself for doing so, because it wasn't easy for me to do at all - but the tone of the posts that I challenged was making me feel that it wasn't a safe space any more not just for WTSA, but for any of us. And I felt that if I didn't stand up for WTSA - after all, it's easier to stand up for someone else in many ways than for yourself, when you're not directly under attack yourself - then it was potentially only a matter of time before this poster or someone else had a go at me, or any one of us. And that is not what we come on here for. As TRS said, we get enough of that in RL. So I was doing it for me as well as out of loyalty to WTSA - and I do feel a great sense of loyalty to all those who post regularly on here, we do provide a unique type of support to each other and that is very valuable to me, and I do care about the progress of the people I have come to "know" on here and have felt cared about in return. Of course you will never have a situation where everybody agrees with everybody else 100% - but that was never the point; it wasn't about agreeing with each other or not, it was (or hopefully is) about us being able to say how it is/was for us, and not being told to shut up.

Anyway, moving on - I have a few thoughts re the future of the thread -
Personally, I would not like to see it move to chat. Chat implies superficial and inconsequential to me, and I imagine we could get a lot more people who just don't get the ethos of the thread accidentally barging in and slagging people off, in MN AIBU etc style. So while it would be more private in terms of disappearing after 90 days, while it was running it would be a lot less safe IMO. I know I first found it by looking in Relationships because that's what ultimately it is all about, so to me it feels logical to keep it here. That's just my opinion, anyway.

Secondly - I remember a while back Attila posted links to the original threads, and in the very first one there was a brilliant opening sort of bit, that said something along the lines of "this is a haven where no one will tell you that what happened to you wasn't that bad etc etc etc" - it was very well written and clear and I thought when I first read it that it would be a good idea to put it at the top of all future threads, just to make sure the point gets across. And so that people know what the thread is about. I didn't say that when I first thought it as I was relatively new to the thread and felt a bit funny about making suggestions to people who'd been on here much longer than me, but in the light of what's happened I think it would be more appropriate than ever. Can anyone find where those old threads are archived and copy it?

And lastly, the name of the thread - I loved the original title "but we took you to stately homes" - because I just got it immediately, it really reflected my situation, that particular brand of parental denial, and it was funny too, and I remember I was so excited when I saw the title - couldn't quite believe it, as I'd looked in Relationships half hoping but not really expecting that I would find people talking about and dealing with the same things that I was. I think the value of the title has been a bit lost with the change to "our nth visit" and that newcomers are less likely to work out what it's all about; but having said that I don't know if the old title worked for everyone else as well as it did for me. And maybe a bit of obscurity puts off some would be trolls, who knows. There have been a couple of people lately asking what the thread is about and I thought it would be good if it was clearer, but then again if someone has to ask, maybe it suggests this isn't the right place for them to post anyway. Just thinking out loud here... in a very long winded way...

Anyway, so there's my thoughts. I do hope the thread does survive, it is so important to so many - and the many "good" lurkers out there who don't post but do follow, I saw someone mention the thread in a positive way on another thread just last week, for example. And now it really is way past my bedtime, goodnight.

[BopTheAlien]

ps - well done Rose!