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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Relationships

Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

988 replies

oneplusone · 19/05/2009 11:52

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

OP posts:
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oneplusone · 05/06/2009 20:28

Hello. Thank you all for your lovely messages. I did have a nice day, despite the gloomy weather, i think it was partly the weather that was making me feel depressed anyway. But DH and the DC's made it a lovely day for me and I feel so lucky to have them. Perhaps now the DC's are that bit older our relationship does not seem like such a one way street, where i am doing all the work and getting very little back. Not that i expect anything at all but when DD especially, in her little 5 year old way, tries to make it a special day for me (by letting me win at snakes and ladders) it warms my heart.

AN ditto about sorting out the house admin. I too have a constant dread that some important letter is buried under the piles of junk and i have left it too late to do whatever it is i am supposed to have done. And i seem to have just given up on trying to keep up with the DC's mess making, not just today but over the last couple of weeks. Perhaps it was the half term that pushed me to my limits, but i feel i really do need the short break i am going on.

Some of you have talked about detachment from toxic people so they cannot hurt you anymore. I think perhaps this is what i need to do wrt my sisters, but it is so hard as on my part at least, there is an attachment to them that i cannot seem to let go of. And my attachment makes me vulnerable as i am expecting things from them that they are unable to give me. Even working that out whilst writing is progress for me in this context.

I wish i could just say fuck them, i don't care anymore, they are the ones with the problems, but i can't seem to do that. I did it easily enough with my parents, i never had any doubt it was them and not me with the problems, but with my sisters i cannot seem to do the same thing. Perhaps because i feel sorry for them as i am sure they have a lot of stuff buried inside that they are not aware of at all. I am sure they were hurt by our parents, not anywhere near as much as me, but hurt a little at least. So i have empathy and sympathy for them and also they are sometimes nice to me. But then they are also very nasty as well, very uncaring and inconsiderate. So confusing.

I do sometimes wonder why i am so badly affected by all of this. When what i went through was not shockingly awful perhaps, it was really emotional abuse and abandonment and neglect rather than physical or sexual. But like AN has talked about in the past, i think if affected me so badly because i was a child who was extremely sensetive, capable of deep love and affection and loyalty, all of which i initiall felt towards my parents. And so the flip side of that is when my feelings were clearly not reciprocated and on top of that i was attacked and neglected, it must have hurt me very very badly, perhaps more so than another child who may have had more of a carefree/laid back disposition. Alice Miller makes this point also that the children who seem to be worst affected are often those who are the most intelligent and most capable of feeling deep and intense emotions. If i was capable of feeling a deep love for my father when he was 'nice' i must have felt an equal but opposite deep pain when he turned 'nasty' and showed me he hated me. I know this issue has been talked about a lot on here, and i have always understood it on an intellectual level but perhaps now i am feeling it emotionally, hence the revisiting of the topic.

Ok, have to go now, i feel so fortunate to have this place to talk to all of you and know i will be understood, i would be lost without all of you. x

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BopTheAlien · 05/06/2009 23:44

Right, this is a bit confusing - OPO, I wrote all the following out before I saw your latest post, so it's a bit out of date now but I'm going to post it anyway! Some of it probably really isn't relevant to you but maybe some of it might be useful, you never know. Really glad to hear you had a lovely day after all and a very happy birthday to you from me too, at the snakes and ladders!

"OPO, I don't think you?ll have the chance to read this before you go away - but it'll still be here when you get back anyway... anyway, I'm just so, so sorry. I've been wanting to respond since your last big post about your sisters but now I absolutely have to. Sorry for ignoring other posts, just got to get this out. I hadn't realised just how much this exclusion of you was engineered by your parents, and actively promoted, eg by taking your sisters to classes together but not taking you. My heart is broken for you. Everything you've said about your sisters being in this tight little unit from which you are excluded - how much pain is there? To be the odd one out, the only one on your own... It's a kind of living hell. I'm drying up, I feel so passionately about this for you and I want to tell you how much on your side I am but I can't find the words! This is horrible stuff. And of course it continues into the present.

Like I've said before I think there are parallels with my own situation in terms of being the only one and the others all pulling together but to have TWO sisters and they both join against you must be so, so hard. Like you say, they make you feel like a distant cousin - and it sounds like in some way your parents totally wanted that and made that happen, didn't you say before that they used to forget your birthday for example? it sounds like the whole family dynamic made it as if you weren't a fully paid up member of the family, you were alwasy the outsider, without the same rights and entitlements and benefits as the "real" family members. That was certainly the case in my family too. I always felt as a child that my dead "sister" would have been treated like a real family member, I always felt like she was the real daughter (although now I think my parents wouldn't have been any better with her - they just didn't have any more love to give, just about enough for my brother and that was it).

OPO, we are similar too in that our families haven't imploded without us around - they just keep on going like some unstoppable machine. That is hard too. To feel so utterly dispensable. To your family. I think we both - and maybe a lot of people on here - grew up with that weird thing where you've got a family in theory; in theory we each have two parents and you have two sisters and I have a brother - but we have no real experience of actually having or living in those relationships, those bonds. I dont' really have a brother. Never felt like I had one except as a negative aspect of my life, the bully to be feared and escaped from. I tried very hard as an adult to build a relationship with him, especially when his DCs were young and I wanted to be involved in their lives; and for a while it seemed to work; but it was always at the cost of my self respect, always meant holding my tongue when he had yet another of his violent outbursts and blamed everything on his DCs, always meant treading on eggshells around him and working myself up into such a state about whether he would explode or not when I saw them all, and what I would do if he did? It was always clear that he would never be my ally, always be my parents' son first and foremost, and I couldn't cope with his continuing appalling behaviour or his rejection of the truth about our family any more than you can cope with your sisters' exclusion of you and their rewriting of events.

Like you, I think maybe there's some level where where because they were "good enough" parents to him - and he's done very well in life (with the exception of one very awful thing that happened which is another huge post in itself) - he can't understand why I'm so angry at them and why I think they were such bad parents. But then one of the ways they were so bad was in failing to protect me from him - HE didn't have a vile, older and much bigger brother treating him like a little piece of shit the whole time! And unlike me, he DID have someone helpless and powerless to vent all his rage on and all the other family crap that came his way, which made things a lot healthier for him, and a lot worse for me. Likewise, your sisters had each other to make things easier for them, and they had you to project the crap onto, so their experience of the family would have been much more postitive than yours.

But having said that I still think that if there were any real honesty or awareness, he WOULD be able to see that things were different for me and awful for me, and I think the same is true for your sisters. There is some level where there's a deliberate denial - well, I don't know if it's deliberate or just so habitual and long standing they really think it?s the truth - but there is certainly no intention there to really look at things from any other perspective other than the one they were brought up to have.
There is no real love or care there at all. and I am so sorry that you are in such a horrible place wrt your relationship with them in the present. You really are between a rock and a hard place. As you say, if you keep trying, you keep getting hurt; but if you cut them out, you get hurt too. Personally, I think your analogy of banging your head against a brick wall is an entirely accurate one, and I for one hope that you can find a way to stop doing it sometime soon. I do not think they will start to see things from your perspective, certainly not any time soon. The horrible, hard, cruel, heartbreaking truth is it sounds like they really don't need you - like my family really don't need me. They can do without you, and God knows, I know how wretchedly painful that is, but I still think that's a pain that can be felt and healed and is finite; whereas the pain of banging your head against that brick wall can go on forever.

They will keep seeing you as the problem, and not your parents, or any of their own behaviour, because it's quite simply EASIER for them that way. No doubt they were affected by your toxic parents too but not in such a way as to make it imperative for them to challenge the way they were brought up, and this is the crucial difference. They have each other, they have a good enough relationship with your parents ? there is no apparent gain in their eyes worth rocking that fairly comfortable boat for; on the contrary, there is a lot to lose. Why would they want to acknowledge that their parents had this repulsive side to them, and risk losing all the benefits of their extended family, their normal role in society etc?

I feel that way about my brother. He has things pretty much the way he wants them. There is no reason for him to jeopardise what he has; a relationship with me and my family simply doesn?t count for that much with him. And most of all I feel that with my mother. She is the one who has made some half hearted moves towards reconciling, she is the one the separation hurts the most probably; but I know that she will never face up to the reality of who my father is, who my brother is, and who she herself is. However much she thinks she wants to have me back in her life (and even that would only be to make HER feel better, not to make things better or happier for me!), she wants to maintain the status quo much, much more. Looking at things from my perspective would mean re-appraising her whole life, her marriage, her image of herself as a mother, her relationship with her son ? it would be really, really hard work, and basically, why should she bother? She has enough to keep her going, with my father and my brother and his family ? they are enough to give her that veneer of a nice normal life, which is what she craves at the end of the day. Estrangement from daughter and daughter?s family can be managed within that context. Plus she?s in her 70?s and so pretty unlikely to be capable of any degree of genuine change.

It is so EASY to gang up on one person and make her the source of the problem, and easy to continue doing it when that?s what?s always been done. I am realising that more and more now. Once that ?personality? is established, once you have had that role shoved on you within the family, it becomes the apparent truth to those involved, however far from the truth is actually is, and the longer it goes on, the more solid it becomes. It is so HARD to forge a new path to uncover the truth and face whatever painful realities that involves, and because it is so hard, I think it is nigh on impossible to expect the people who benefit from that initial lie to ever change. Certainly not voluntarily.

The only thing we can do is to keep on trying to challenge the denial within ourselves. This to me ? I?m sure I?ve said this before! ? is the crux of everything. Promoting the nurturing, loving voice within that challenges the voice of denial, the voice that is the internalised version of abusive parents/callous siblings/ any and all who have hurt us. Because it only really hurts ? hurts desperately ? as long as in some part of our mind we are in agreement with them. This is the work that goes on and on, though, as far as I?m concerned. You can intellectually ?get? that your parents were in the wrong, that you weren?t to blame, and so on ? but these things took years and years and years to build up, and they can?t be reconstructed in a day. If you were in a really bad car crash or got physically very, very badly beaten up, it would take time to physically recover: you may need multiple operations and/or months or even years of physiotherapy. You may never regain full movement or capacity in a limb, for example; or one or more of your senses may be permanently affected. Surely there is a parallel with emotional abuse. If you sustain emotional abuse on a regular basis over a period of years and years, then the damage will go very, very deep and will require a great deal of intervention to put right. The worst part of emotional abuse in many ways is that a natural, inevitable result of it is that you identify with your abuser(s) on an unconscious level ? in order to escape from the pain of what?s being done to you, you internally ?become? the person or people who is/are doing it. They call it Stockholm syndrome, I think. So you carry the voice of that punishing/judgemental/cruel/sadistic/unloving person within you, potentially replicating the patterns indefinitely.

Anyway, OPO, what I?m trying to say in my usual very roundabout way is that you probably can?t reach your sisters by talking to them, but you can try and work with the ?inner sisters? that you carry within you. And it may or may not lead to shifts in their behaviour, you can?t control that, but it will make life much less painful for you if you can reach that inner voice that agrees with them that it is you who are over-sensitive and you who are the problem, and correct it. That voice is essentially a hurt child who has been taught to hate herself; you can show her she deserves love and teach her how to receive it.

I?m not surprised that it being your birthday has been so painful for you. It must bring up so much hurt. I hope that you will have managed to have a better evening, enjoying some of the good stuff in the present ? I do think from what you say that there is a lot to be optimistic about in the present, and that it is primarily the past which is so toxic and pain-riddled ? and send you a (probably belated by now!) happy birthday wish along with the others on here?.

Btw, I hope it doesn?t sound as if I?m telling you what I think you should do, or telling you you should be doing such and such ? obviously I have an opinion (which you can probably guess!) but I totally respect that you must do what feels right to you, and also that at the end of the day you can only do what you have critical mass to do. I just want to say that I see how hard the position you?re in is, and you have my support.

Take care x"

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PinkyMinxy · 06/06/2009 00:21

hAVEN't had much time on here lately, my littlest is a bit poorly with a chest infection.

Just wanted to say hello to lemony and bohemianbint

and Happy Birthday OPO.

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Sakura · 06/06/2009 07:13

Hi Lemony, I find your posts very insightful and interesting to read.
Thank you to people who replied to my other posts (sorry, can'T remember who!), I am so bogged down with doctors appointments and nesting (and panicking about psycho MIL's reaction to second baby) that I can't keep track. I am still reading though.

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Sakura · 06/06/2009 07:19

Oh, yes smithfield, it was interesting to read about how your family also imploded after you left them to it.
"I've washed my hands of them" is the way I like to look at it.
I feel sad for my brothers though because they are most likely taking some of the flack, but hopefully they will be pushed to the brink like I was and will some day start to limit contact with my parents. I reckon the shit will hit the fan if one of them has a child. My mother will be MIL from HELL, I can see it now, and I should imagine the girlfriend/wife of my brother will have the shock of her life and my brothers will then be forced to set some boundaries with my mother.

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Sakura · 06/06/2009 07:30

bohemianbint, keep posting
OPO, AN thank you for the kind words regarding the baby.

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Roseability · 06/06/2009 08:33

Sakura - I am anxious about my GM reaction when this baby is born. They have booked into a hotel 26th June for 2 nights. This will be so much better than last time, when they stayed in the house, were here the day after DS was born and planned to stay for 2 weeks! We had to send them home after a couple of days, because they were so awful. However I am worried that if I go overdue, I might not have this baby until 23rd Juneish and they will be coming far too soon. My DH has offered to speak to them and tell them to come at a later date though, if this happens.

If my baby is a girl (we have been told it is) I will be calling her after my birth mother and my DH mother. No doubt my GM will not be happy about this.

We must stay strong. They are our babies and nothing can change that

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Sakura · 07/06/2009 02:17

THat is a lovely idea-to name your daughter after your birth mother.
It looks like mine will be a boy this time. My first was a girl. Maybe having a girl will bring you an extra level of peace. It certainly did for me. For example, after having DD I realised that there was no way she could have been born "bad" and therefore I hadn't been born bad or faulty either. I do think mothers can over-identify with their daughters and project onto them (as happened with a lot of us) but in my case, because I'd already started this journey, having a little girl was the best thing that could have happened to me.
And I know that having this little boy is going to be brilliant too

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ActingNormal · 07/06/2009 11:08

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drlove8 · 07/06/2009 19:33

.

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Lemonylemon · 08/06/2009 10:02

AN - re. your post of Sunday 7th June - please see my posts about Charles Whitworth and also Louise Hay and mentally taking the inner child that you were, and leading them by the hand and talking to them and showing them all the love you can.... it does work!

BTA - are you still trying to keep up a relationship with your brother? Some people are just beyond reasonableness.

Sakura good luck with the baby - I've had a baby girl after a 10 year gap. I was absolutely sure I was having a boy and got the shock of my life - but in a nice way! She's absolutely gorgeous and in a funny way, quite healing because she won't be the girl left emotionally needing.....

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ActingNormal · 08/06/2009 11:02

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smithfield · 08/06/2009 11:17

Yes- I had dd second- I feel so bonded to her its crazy. A huge shock to have a girl but after the shock a feeling of now I can heal perhaps some of the generational damage.
Much in my family has been about male vs female roles and favouritism for one over the other.
I just hope I dont do what my mother did and look to her for the love I never got, or to fill the hole that exists in me.
I dont want to use my children to meet my needs, but sometimes I think there is perhaps a subconcious drive to do just that.
How do we stop that from happening?

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smithfield · 08/06/2009 11:30

AN- You are putting me to shame- I am crap with housework and cant see it ever changing at the moment, except when I hire a cleaner. Which actually I think I may well do and to hell with it
Ive been pondering again about ds and why I find it difficult with him. especially when he 'is' such a lovely little boy. He is kind and sensitive, funny and articulate.
When I go back to his babyhood I wonder if (because of his nature) I felt something of what lemony said about her mum. Ds was very contained as a baby and never wanted to hug or cuddle (dd is the opposite), he was quite independant. It used un-nerve and upset me that I would pick him up from his nanna's and he seemed happier to saty there than come with me. I took this personally and I shouldnt have. He is his own seperate little person and should not feel he has to express his love for me in order for me to love him back.
I worry all the time that I may have damaged him because when I had him I had such little awareness of myself and what made me do certain things etc.
Anyway enough about ME ME ME! Ha.
What I was going to say AN is that because you were not allowed to express emotions in your home as a child then maybe when your daughter does express them it makes you feel uncomfortable? She is triggering what you were made to feel in expressing your emotions as a child?

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smithfield · 08/06/2009 11:34

Bohemian Sorry meant to say hello and welcome to the thread. I have read many of your original threads re your dad and s mum.
I wondered when you would succumb and join us here.
So what is the current state of play? Have you reduced contact with them? They do sound very manipulative and controlling. It sounds as though your father has possibly married a woman whom he can control you through? Or is he just quite weak, and is being controlled by you step mum? Just wondered what the dynamic was there?

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ActingNormal · 08/06/2009 11:38

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smithfield · 08/06/2009 11:46

AN- No, that is not bad. I see that when someone else like yourself says it like that.
I like you just have a lot of anxiety about getting things right. I find it hard to relax and trust that they are who they are and I am trying to do the best I can and that is 'good enough'.
Maybe we should both have this as our affirmation when we have a wobble. ' we are good enough parents, we are good enough parents...'

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ActingNormal · 08/06/2009 11:48

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ActingNormal · 08/06/2009 11:52

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smithfield · 08/06/2009 12:07

'I suppose the things that DD wants me to do I find more difficult. She wants me to endlessly listen to her spout gibberish - this is what I find the hardest. She likes doing activities together and this is a bit easier because we both like art and craft and music and shopping. When I'm doing those things I like it but sometimes I don't feel the motivation or energy to start on an activity so I don't do it every day whereas kisses and cuddles for DS happen all the time.'

This is absolutely where I am with my two except it is dd who is the cuddly one and like you I feel all she seems to need is my presence kisses and cuddles and she is more than happy with that.
Ds craves a more interactive attention (like your dd) and as I write this I think I am realising why I find this part so difficult.

I am guessing that some of that is normal in having two young children because it is exhausting but also perhaps ds triggers me in several ways. Firstly, he needs 'less' physical contact (my mother never hugged or held me) so being pushed away by him reminds me of that on some level, and then I have difficulty expressing love in other ways. Secondly my mother barely interacted with me. I can remember sitting in the car with her or on a long train journey and she never spoke to me, we would be sitting in silence. So I am not used to a constant level of interaction ( I have the same thing with dh at times too, he just wants to talk and talk and I cant handle it).
In fact as a child I spent a great deal of time finding it impossible to speak or interact at all. I was crippled by shyness. Now I think perhaps there is no such thing as 'shyness' just that if nobody speaks to you as a child you feel ashamed to talk because nobody will be prepared to listen.

I dont think I would of been allowed to display demandingness (if there is such a word?) as a child so maybe this is why I feel so uncomfortable with it coming from ds.

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ActingNormal · 08/06/2009 12:47

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Lemonylemon · 08/06/2009 13:40

You know what? From reading all your posts after mine earlier, I've come to the conclusion that the big problem here is that we all beat ourselves up trying to be perfect and compensate/counteract our upbringings - which is totally natural if your upbringing wasn't good. But, the thing is that I feel that every one punishes themselves for not having a perfect childhood and that's wrong. The thing about not having a perfect childhood is that it's not all about you, it's all about your parents. I find it very sad that people punish themselves for others mistakes. I think that the key might be to start being kinder to ourselves and giving ourselves a bit of slack in that regard.

AN - the fighting thing - it's a physical expression of your mental struggle for self-preservation.

AN and Smithfield - don't take it personally that your DS or DD are self-contained - I think that as long as you continue with the affection, they will know that you love them - they may not be able to verbalise it - but it sinks in at some primeval level, I'm sure..... I spent my childhood wishing that my Mum would kiss me or put her arms around me - but she never did.

AN (again) I think that your daughter's reaction to things is alien to you because you had to numb your feelings/thoughts when you were a child. My son is very much like your daughter, he has an artistic temperament, was a mummy's boy and was attached to me with velcro when he was little. Saying this, he's a confident boy. I am curious about you saying your daughter spouting gibberish - what's that? Is she telling you about her day at school? Her hopes, dreams, ideas etc?

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ActingNormal · 08/06/2009 14:26

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Lemonylemon · 08/06/2009 15:00

AN Ah, now I understand. I think she's just wired differently from your DS. Like a lot of females, she needs the mental stimulation, rather than the physical rough and tumble that boys like... Do you think this might be it? When she's talking and saying the words which are made up, do you ask her what that particular word means? Is she old enough - sorry, I don't know how old she is...

My daughter (who, admittedly, can't yet speak very well) would sit and look at me and my DS and just go "wah do ba do" wah do ba do" and she actually had my DS and I sitting there singing this little ditty with her - exactly as I've written it above.... I asked at nursery what it meant and they told me that it's actually "wind the bobbin up", but hey ho, we entered her world and it made her chuckle.....

Plus also, my DS has an artistic temperament - and he doesn't stop rabbiting - sometimes his conversations (in my deepest thoughts) are a load of drivel - but the thing is that he's keeping the lines of communication open - as your DD is and that's really important because there may come a time when it's a real emergency and you are the only person that she can tell.....

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Sakura · 10/06/2009 03:30

AN, yes it does help to imagine my daughter as myself (my inner child or something!). Its has been very healing for me.

I am 39 weeks pregnant now and MIL issues are surfacing in my mind. I am re-reading "COntrolling People" by Patricia Evans and that is having a soothing effect on me. I am drawing strength from this book.
I am just absolutely dreading the interaction with her. I'm not going to point-blank say she can't visit the baby at the hospital- She can come. But I know its going to be long and drawn out when she does come wtih lots of snidey comments that DH won't be able to "hear". I have already decided to say "Sorry I'm very tired now, the baby and I need to rest" (whereas last time I was very concerned about her needs throughout the post-partum period) but she refuses to take a hint unless its stated very obviously (which is against my nature!). THen she'll pull a hurt, rejected, victim fact that will affect DH. And the once again, i will be the bad guy and she will be the innocent victim. Oh GOD, I just can't be arsed with her. I have stated explicitly she is not to come to the house at all this time to "help" i.e get her points in her game, but that DH and I will go to visit her at her house a few days after I leave hospital. I simply cannot throw someone out of my house, but I can most definitely leave her house whenever i want! I just hope DH is up to task this time and is a little less in denial about his mother's nasty capabilities!

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