Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

[oneplusone]

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

Smithfield, OPO, Rosability- I really think you are talking about veryr important things. The anger, the frustration.

I don't think I am in the place yet wherev I canhold my head up for the child I was. I still feel far too much shame.But I know I have a lot of deep seated anger, and it is still surfacing at wrrong moments.

One of mt big day to day problems has been letting things go. Mother puts me through the emotional ringer when it suits her and then acts like nothing happened and the effect of her doing this over and over again throughout my life has made it very difficult for me to get any sort of 'closure' on things. Nothing ever resolves, and as result I find it very hard to let go, to move on from events that have not gone well or I have been upset by.

The extremely conditional nature of the love I recieved from my parents-well the goal posts shift so much I can't say for sure I've had any, TBH - mainly it was/is a promise that there is/will be love but that I make it impossible for them to give it or show it. My mother does tell me she loves me but only when it can be said in a way to make me feel bad- as illustrated in this latest performance of hers- all this makes me extremly self critical. My anxiety when I do not do thigns perfectly is hard to bear. And I get enraged with myself. I think other shave said before that there is a feelig that if you cannot be the absolute best at something you have no place doing it

However I know I am improving.

AN I think as ever your last post was spot on. I can see so many of the issues you have are mine, too.

I don't think I would be making this journey if it were not for Mnet. THat may sound silly but it was reading things on here that made me realise how wrong things have been. Seeing my mother describeb by other people talkign about their own was a revellation.

Feeling that I was 'worth it' in terms of getting help was a big deal for me.

Reading through how people are working with how they interact with their own children has been a great help. I am gaining confidence in myself as a parent.

Small steps.

I am very grateful to people on here.

I have been quite depressed recently. Struggling to get up in the morning. But when I have got up the days on the whole are better. I love my little children so much. I feel truly blessed that they are in my life, and I hope I can help them achieve a happy confident adulthood. THis is my biggest goal in life.

Roseability, it sounds to me that you have worked out exactly what went on. Who knows what your mother would have been like raising you, but she should have been given the chance! The first thing that struck me is that you were separated from her when you were 3 because she wasn't coping. Lets be honest, the hardest work is over by three- The sleepless nights, the terrible twos. The first three years of a child's life are a bloody nightmare when it comes to how much they take out of you. And your mother managed it. It was only AFTERWARDS, that you were taken away. That struck me as being strange. I don't want to paint an over-rosy picture of how your mother was, but it doesn sound like your grandmother is a piece of work.

PinkyMinxy - Being a good mother (or should I say good enough mother!) I now believe is the most important goal in my life. For a long time I felt I had to achieve great things to be worthy of my adoptive parent's respect. Although they both come from poor backgrounds they value material things. My adoptive father talks about being able to brag about his daughter living 'in a mansion on the hill' and only the other day my GM bragged to me that her niece's fiance had bought her a Mercedes sports car.

However like you I am realising that my children are my greatest pride and joy. No mansion or car can surpass that. Yes I get angry and frustrated with my DS, but I am seeing and loving him for what he is. His individuality delights me. PM the fact that you feel blessed to have your children in your life makes you a lovely mum. The fact that they are your biggest focus and goal is wonderful. Do not be too hard on yourself and I think given our backgrounds the depression is normal. We have not been taught to enjoy family and take delight in that simple pleasure. It has all been pressures, burdens and trauma.

Society as a whole does not value mothering and children enough. We are expected to achieve everything. You are making great steps PM and for many, many years I was stuck in that cycle with my GM. Not being able to let go. Endless phone calls with me trying to fight my corner, to be heard, only to be let down. Manipulated time and time again. I do believe I am breaking that cycle now and I know you will get there too.

Sakura - you are right. When I look at my son now, who is three, I do wonder. There certainly is no reason why I couldn't have been spending more time with her during her lucid periods. Schizophrenics are not constantly psychotic. I can tell from my mother's letters that she was a very bright and sensitive woman and actually spoke a lot of sense. Her letters do allude to hallucinations and delusions but they also demonstrate a lot of insight into her illness.

Instead I was kept from her for such long periods that I didn't even recognise her in photos

This just serves as a warning as to how dangerous and manipulative toxic grandmothers can be. The lengths they can go to, to have control. Sakura, I am thinking of you in the last stages of pregnancy. I hope we can both have a positive birth and mothering experience without toxic people blighting it. I do feel stronger this time and I hope you do to.

AN - your post is very insightful. You, like PM, mention waking up feeling depressed. For years I would wake up with this horrible sinking 'what is the point' feeling. Even before I had my DS. That has gone now. Yes I still have bad days and low moods, but I know they will pass. It is more anger I feel now when I think about my family, but that is good. You also mention needing to rescue people. I think this is common and my counsellor pointed this out to me. He asked why I had become a nurse. When I looked deep into myself, I realised it was to prove to myself and my family that I am a nice person (because I believe I am not due to my family). Not because it is what I particularly wanted to do with my life. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy my job and patient care but given the choice I would have persued my real love. For reading, writing and creativity.

You are making great progress I feel with this therapy. If I get down again after this baby, I will be seeking more. Do not ever doubt its value. As I have said before my GM doesn't believe in it, but she is a bitter and twisted woman who has ruined her family relationships

Rosability wondering what might have been can be very painful.

I struggle to see why your grandmother decided she did not want to support your mother in her parenting and instead supplant her. Maybe it is the belief that they can do everything better. I know my parents like to take over, to make the rules- they think theirs are the only valid rules, that thier way is the only 'real' way- eveyone else is an idiot to them.

AN You should not feel ashamed. I worry about telling people about thigns for several reasons.
1 that I will put them off me, that they will think it's me who is nuts/unstable

That people will find it depressing and unsettling.

That I will become just another thing to gossip about in the schoold playground at pick up time.

I do still feel sad that people will think ill of my family, that peole may behave diferently towards them if they meet them. I am scared someone might say something to them. But then I have always been deeply anxious of my friends upsetting or offending my parents- it is so easy to do.

Hi all, sorry have not been able to post for a while, busy with DC's during half term. They have both only just gone back to school and nursery and I feel ready to explode. I dropped DS off at nursery this morning and cried all the way home in the car. Not so much about leaving him at nursery, although I always always feel terrible and so guilty for leaving him there, even though I desperately need some space and time to myself.

I am really sorry, but right now i just need to offload some things, I have been holding it all in for nearly 2 weeks and i feel ready to burst.

Having said that I don't know where to start.I keep having this feeling that I want to make a completely fresh start. ie end all my current relationships, including with my sisters and DH and one friend from a long a time ago and just start all over again, knowing that time I will be far more discerning in who I choose to enter into a relationship with. I am no longer so needy and desperate for love and a feeling of being wanted (not that I even realised that i was this way before, but with hindsight i can see how 'unchoosy' i was, simply because i was desperate, craving, love, affection, acceptance, all the things that had been lacking from my parents) that i know now I will not enter into a relationship of any sort, whether romantic or simply friendship, without really looking or caring about how the other person is treating me.

Every single one of my relationships that was formed before I started on this journey is with a person who has no or very little care or regard for my feelings. These people also have no idea or interest in who the real 'me' is, I am just there as a blank canvas for them to project onto. I have allowed myself to be treated like this because it was the only way i knew how to be, it was how i grew up. Only now am i beginning to discover who I am, what I stand for, what i beleive in, what my values are. And i actually like myself, I like who I am, who i have always been i suppose. But the real me was always hidden and was never allowed to come out by the people who i had a relationship with. Those people did not want to know or see the real me, they did not want her to speak out about herself or be herself, they wanted her to remain hidden so they could use the mask that was left for their own purposes.

I have tried being myself recently with my youngest sister. I told her i was hurt by middle sister telling me she was pregnant weeks after she had told younger sister. It made me feel once again, excluded, inferior, second best, an afterthought, like a 'third wheel' or a gooseberry amongst my sisters' cosy little twosome.

Her response spoke volumes. She told me i was being oversensetive and that i shouldn't be hurt at being excluded, and that she wouldn't be upset if she had been told weeks after me about the pregnancy. I don't think the latter is true, she would have been a little hurt i think. But it is probably true she wouldn't have been as hurt as i was as she has not endured a lifetime of being hurt by always feeling left out and excluded. But her complete lack of empathy or understanding towards me ie her not allowing or accepting me to express my true and sincere feelings to her told me what I have said above. She does not want to hear or see the real me. She wants me to stay as I was, the silent me, the me who never spoke up when my feelings were trampled on or disregarded.

I strongly suspect that if I spoke to middle sister about how she has made me feel wrt her pregnancy, her response would be similar to younger sister. My true feelings would be dismissed, she would say i being oversensetive, and that i should not be bothered by her treating me like 'second best sister.'

Youngest sister also really upset me when i spoke to her on the phone, she said something along the lines of middle sister and her see or speak on a daily basis, they look out for and look after each other. She was talking to me as if I was not also her sister, but like i was a complete outsider, a stranger who was asking to be treated as if i was her sister. It would be funny if it were not so painful. She simply does not see me as a sister. I am just an extra person she is being forced to accomodate, so she does so to the bare minimum, ie a phone call after many months, a birthday card and one each for the DC's and that's it. She treats me and acts like she is a fourth cousin or something. A fourth cousin who keeps calling her and wanting to be close to her, but who she really does not give two hoots about but feels obliged to maintain a bare bones relationship with because the fourth cousin will simply not let go of her.

Something Bop said a while ago makes so much sense. My cutting off my parents has actually brought my parents closer together and also my sisters and my parents. They are all clinging together in their illusory family and validating each other that I am the mad/bad/crazy/ungrateful one. My parents will use the fact that my sisters are still in a relationship with them to 'prove' it is me and not them who has something wrong in the head. They will all conveniently ignore the fact that i was the only one horribly abused by my dad and the only one who my mother didn't love. It is even worse as my sisters simply cannot understand the fact that our mother did not love me like she loved them, i know they truly and honestly believe that our mother loved us all, they have not the slightest clue how things were for me within that family. Nor were my sisters subject to my dad's projections like i was, they were not thought of as nasty, ungrateful, horrible and hateful daughters in the way my dad saw me, because of his psychosis and paranoia. So my sisters only know what they know of my parents, based solely on their own experience of them. Nor do they have the ability to step back and develop some self awareness and insight. And even if they did they still would not understand how I felt as a child and now, as their childhood experience was just so fundamentally and totally different from mine.

So my sisters do genuinely believe my parents were good parents because on the whole, both my parents were good enough parents to them. But not to me. And i can see that my sisters will never understand this concept. This also means that whilst for me our so called family was just an illusion, for my sisters, it is much of a real and genuine family, it is not just an illusion of a family, because both my parents do genuinely care about my sisters and my sisters must be able to feel that our parents do really love them, and so they in turn do have genuine feelings for my parents. And therefore, because my sisters have had a fairly good experience of our parents, they simply cannot and do not want to see or beleive the truth that the very same set of parents were horribly abusive and neglectful of me. So they have to tell me, like my youngest sister did recently, that my view of my parents is not a generally valid view and only from my pov are/were our parents bad parents. And strictly speaking that is true. It is only towards me that they were bad parents, not towards my sisters. But I don't think my sisters even really accept that our parents were awful to me, again I am sure they think I am simply being oversensetive and making a mountain out of a molehill, making a fuss over nothing and that I should be willing to overlook a few bad things when there are so many good things our parents have done. But that is their reality (my sisters') not mine. My reality is that there was no good stuff, apart from around 2 times when i felt like my dad seemed to show some genuine care and concern for me, and in a lifetime of 38 years, that is not enough, nor is it good enogh.

The problem i have now is what to do about my relationship with my sisters. Because in order to protect myself from constantly getting hurt by their exclusion of me, over and over again, in so many ways, I think my only option would be to end the relationship. I don't think talking to them would make any difference, they clearly want to continue as we are, they do not want to make any changes. They are very comfortable and cosy in their little twosome and with me on the outside, no doubt an irritating presence for them. I am sure they would rather i just disappeared; I'm sure they feel obliged to keep in touch with me; they don't actually want to call me/visit etc.

So I could just cut them off and be completely alone with no family at all. That is how i feel anyway, so it wouldn't be that different to now. At least i wouldn't then be facing a lifetime of feeling hurt at being excluded. They will always live close by to each other and their DC's are going to be close in age so naturally they will probably spend lots of time with each other, the DC's will grow up together and if was to keep in touch with them, i would have a constant unhappy feeling of exclusion and that is what I can't bear the thought of. And i can't force them to change, they have to see for themselves how their behaviour is making me feel and want to change for themselves. But i honestly cannot see that happening anytime soon.

But cutting them off is such a big step. I'm not sure i'm ready to take it as yet, especially with middle sister's baby due soon. Perhaps a temporary break might work. But I would like to see middle sister's baby growing up, and younger sisters.

I know i just need to accept that this is the way things are and not be so hurt all the time by them. But i am not at that stage yet. I keep thinking I am but then i get hurt again so clearly i am not. And youngest sister's SIL is emigrating soon and i know this will push her closer to middle sister then would have happened otherwise and i will be exluded even more. Youngest sister's SIL was a substitute sister for her and she was partly the reason youngest sister was so involved in her family in law and had no time for me and only a little time for middle sister. I know if i talk to my sisters about how i feel they will come up with a million and one excuses about why things are the way they are, meaning of course that there is no chance or possibility of things changing.

I am supposed to be talking to youngest sister on the phone about some of these things but i feel it is completely pointless. I know she will come up with loads of excuses, point the finger at me and tell me i'm being oversensetive etc. I don't know what to do. Cutting them off seems very drastic and final and will also affect my DC's. Not cutting them off means i will always feel hurt and excluded and I don't feel i can live with that feeling for the rest of my life.

Sorry, have more to add. I really am beginning to notice more and more similarities in DH to his mother which i am getting increasingly worried about. He keeps trying to tell me he is a great husband and i feel it is like my parents always telling me they were great parents. It's as if he, like them, is trying to brainwash and confuse me, so i cannot see the truth. The main thing about DH that really bothers me is how he seems to have no idea of what i have been through over the last couple of years. Dealing with a lot of emotional pain and looking after the DC's who are still so young.

I realise now i have been depressed, mildly and/or severely, for a long time, and this has manifested itself in my wanting to sleep loads. So at weekends, for quite some time, DH has been getting up with the kids on both sundays and saturdays so i can sleep. Perhaps i am expecting too much, but i thought DH was willing to get up and let me have a lie in because he knew i was going through a really hard time, had a huge amount on my plate and was literally hanging on by a thread sometimes. So I thought he was letting me sleep because he loved me and wanted to help me. And it was partly for those reasons, but he also seems to be holding such a huge grudge against me for his having to take up the slack in that way for quite a while. So often when we have an argument, he always brings it up, the fact that he has had to get up at weekends so i can sleep in. And it makes me feel really bad and guilty and also very hurt. Because i wasn't sleeping in because i was lazy or selfish, it was because essentially i was ill. Mentally ill. And also physically ill quite a bit as well, with various coughs. colds and viruses, no doubt because my immune system was shot to pieces because of the huge and continuous stress and strain i was under for pretty much 2 years, whilst i was going through the worst phase of my recovery and healing from the pain of my childhood.

I also feel he is simply not the person i thought he was. I thought, when we met and got married that we were alike in that we both had the same standards of integrity, decency, honesty. But i have realised that we do not share the same standards. I would never for eg. read his diary if i came across it. And yet he has read mine, on 2 occasions, although it was years ago. He also does not always do the right thing, and i know in the same position i would have done something different. eg. years ago when i was pregnant with DD, DH had lost his job and even though i was struggling at work, i had a very stressful job, i was suffering from insomnia so was going to work on around 2 hours sleep a night, all whilst i was around 4/5 months pregnant. DH, due to his overinflated ego, refused to get a job unless he thought it was good enough for him. ie he refused to just get any job eg stacking shelves at Tesco, simply because it would have been the right thing to do given that i was pregnant and struggling so much and he waited for months and months til a job that he deemed suitable for him came up. I have always felt so hurt and let down by him during that time. I thought as my husband he would look after me, especially when i was pregnant, but he put his own selfish needs and ego before me and i don't think i will ever forgive him for that. And he didn't tell his parents about that time and then later, when his mother was laying into me for supposedly not looking after DH after I had DD, DH said nothing and told me his mother was simply looking out for him as most MIL's do.

I pointed out to him recently that it was him who had not looked after me when i was pregnant because he was too proud to stack shelves; and yes, i was not looking after him after I had DD, but that was due to severe, undiagnosed PND, not because i was too lazy or couldn't be bothered.

His mother clearly jumped to the conclusion that i wasn't doing things around the house because i was lazy/couldn't be bothered and I feel DH thinks the same of me during the last 2 years when again i have had depression which has hindered greatly my ability to cope with the housework and DC's. This is where he and his mother are so similar. They seem to have no compassion or understanding that i was going through such a hard time, they would rather jump to a negative conclusion that i am lazy, than think that there might be a reason as to why i am not doing things. Even now, MIL has realised she made a huge mistake aboht me, she thinks it is beneath her to apologise to me and DH is the same, getting an apology out of him is like getting blood out of a stone and even when he does apologise, i can tell he doesn't really mean it, he doesn't understand how he has hurt me and what he did wrong.

I am just fed up of dealing with all these people, my sisters, DH etc. I feel there are other people out there who are not like the people in my life right now and i want to be free to go out there and find new healthy relationships. But i am being held back by my sisters and DH.

I have also realised i don't particularly like or respect a 'friend' i have known for a long time, nearly 25 years. Again i think i have just ignored her faults for years, but recently i feel like she is not a very decent person and i don't really want to be around her. She has treated me badly on only a couple of occasions, but it's not even the way she has treated me but the way she behaves in general that i dislike. eg she has a job where she is in charge of government organisation which is there to help people who are in severe difficultties. And from what she tells me, simply because she can get away with it as there is nobody checking op on her as she is in charge, she hardly actually goes into her office, does little or no work, spends her time at the gym or at home, all without any thought that she should be at work, doing what she can to improve the services they can offer to those that use the charity etc. I despise her attitude, she wanted to get into the charity sector under the guise that she wanted to help people, but she is just helping herself, getting paid and doing nothing. I don't want to be associated with people like her, i feel ashamed that i have stayed friends with her for so long now. She also has no regard for others. She had agreed to come to our place for a bbq a while ago and she was going to cancel at the last minute and the only reason she didn't cancel is that she was unable to arrange a weekend away with her latest boyfriend. She even told me she had been trying to arrange a weekend away, whilst knowing at the same time she had agreed to come to my place for the bbq. She couldn't care less that she would have let me down or that i would have catered for her and her boyfriend being present in terms of food etc. I am sick and fed up of her and people like her. I just cannot be bothered with them anymore. She is currently away on holiday and i am going to speak to her when she gets back. I am going to let her know that i don't appreciate her disregard for me and if she continues like that i will end the relationship.

I'm sorry for going on about myself so much. Really needed to get that lot off my chest. Have more time now as school is back so will read all recent posts this afternoon. x

AN, I get that feeling of worry when I feel I've opened up too much, and like you I can also end up saying more than I meant to about things, once I start talking. I think that's a result of being unheard and unlistened to for so long, having to contain it all inside, keeping it even from yourself in a way. The need to be heard and understood and validated is huge. Like Pinky, I worry that it will push people away from me (and this has happened), that they will think I'm mad or unstable (has almost certainly also happened) or just "too much" - too needy, too damaged, too desperate. Which I was for a very long time. It happens less now that I have healed a lot, but the fact is those dynamics will always be there to an extent - there will always be a part of me clamouring to be heard, there will always be a part of me terrified of abandonment. It's not that I don't believe in healing; I continue to work at it even though I have resolved huge amounts of stuff and accomplished major, fundamental changes in my life, and I will probably continue to work on these issues in whatever form I need to for the rest of my life, in some way. But I can't ever undo what happened. I can't be the person I would have been if I'd not been damaged. I will always be the person these bad things happened to, however far away I move from them - and the more I accept that, the more I do move forward, paradoxically.

I think it's probably worrying for your DH in a different way, as well as the fear of damage to his reputation that you mention. To men, information is power, and they don't like sharing it. To women, communication is lifeblood, and we have to share to learn and support each other. OK, huge generalisation and maybe over-simplification, but personally I do think that there are real differences in the way we're wired (men and women) and it's a primitive biological thing and it's not right or wrong or better or worse, it's just the way it is. I know my DH always feels uneasy at the thought of me disclosing "too much" - too much in his mind being almost anything that has any tint of vulnerability.

Must go. Still reading all the posts and wanting to respond to so much more; time always the issue.

oneplusone,
I follow everything you're saying about your husband. Mine does things "for me" to feed his image of himself as a good husband, rather than doing it actually because he loves me. Also, there are times where I do feel really grateful for the things he does (similar to your DH getting up with the kids at the weekend) but it is frequently used against me in later arguments. SO I feel its being done to push me into the role of "selfish" while he gets away with being the image of perfection. I almost feel like escaping (divorcing) because at least if I'm on my own I won't be held up against this other perfect person and be found wanting. But then again to be fair, he is good in many ways. I would be worse off on my own while the kids are young.
ITs like my parents. They needed me in their life because all their inadequacies were projected onto me. I was the one who was always causing trouble. So now I have cut my mother out and have minimal contact with my father, I just know that they are carrying around the same rage but have no-one to project it onto. It must be very confusing for them. I mean, wasn't it me who was always causing problems in their life? So how is it that my mother is a raging alcoholic and they both started divorce proceedings shortly after I escaped to university? Me not being there meant that their rage leaked out towards other people in their lives.

Roseability, perhaps you have given birth by now? I'm 38 weeks and dying for it to be over!

Sakura
'I feel its being done to push me into the role of "selfish" while he gets away with being the image of perfection'

That is exactly how I feel sometimes. My DH does sometimes like to play the role of put upon husband to friends and people we meet. I pull him up on it now. I point out to him that I am not going to acept his little put downs and such. I think a lot of this is the way my family behave towards me rubbing off on him. We have been together a long time, and he has admitted that he feels he may have been taken in by my mother on a few occaisions- but so have I- she is very manipulative and can tell peole whatever they want to hear, and is especially dangerous when you are feeling annoyed by something someone has done. She never smooths things over- she always fans the flames instead, because it suits her.

I think my DH has some problems with anxiety, too. Maybe my anxiety makes him stressed, but also his father suffered very badly from depression, and his brother is/was (he has calmed down a lot) very loud and prone to shouting.

The thing that makes me feel better about him is that though we have arguments etc. we are communicating much better, we are discussing things a lot more rather than each taking an opposing view and defending it to the death, which is what we have been prone to doing.

OPO Can I ask you, do you feel lonely at times? I know I do. It seems bizarre, but my toxic mother and sister and the way they made me feel alien to the rest of the world has at times felt like a comfort blanket. I find trying to make real objective sense of things exhausting- the black and white of 'it's all me, no wonder nobody likes me', or 'all popular people are shallow and mean' seems so much simpler. I don't know where to turn sometimes. I know that basically I have to deal with things myself- I cannot rely on other people to tell me how to feel- or not to feel- because accepting my feelings as real is another big challenge.

It is hard to know who is good and who is bad for you. I wonder if maybe it is not about that, but about not letting the bad get to you. I was fretting again the other day about this very strange and controlling lady I met through NCT- our sons are friends of sorts. DH saod to me-' don't worry about her- just think of her as someone we happened to meet- her opinions do mot matter. I think this is what my therapist talks alot about- not giving people too much power in one's life.

Sakura - I am 39 weeks today and struggling. I am desperate for it to be over, to have my baby in my arms. I have been rubbish at responding to people's posts as my brain is fried with lack of sleep and an energetic three year old! I am reading though

Bop, your post once again said it all for me. Especially the part about never being the person you would have been had you not been damaged by your parents. I feel confronted by this all the time. I see for eg. on tv programmes, younger people in their twenties, starting out in their careers and i can see they will achieve great things. I know they must have all their energy and resources available to them to enable them to achieve and fulfil their potential. And i always at this point feel the huge loss that i suffered, that my potential was not fulfilled and now it is too late, the circumstances are not right for me to achieve what i am capable of. If i had not been so badly damaged and pushed down and had all my energy and vitality available to me in my twenties, i know i would have achieved so much more than i actually did in my career and in other areas. It is a loss that can never be made up. I am now nearly 40 and my priority is my DCs and helping them to achieve their full potential, my time for that is over and can never be recovered. I know that once the DC's are a bit older i will have more opportunity to fulfil my dreams but my needs will always take second place to the DC's, i will not be able to devote all my time, energy, passion and resources to whatever i choose to do, not in the way i could have done as a young, free and single twentysomething with the world at her feet, with no ties, no commitments to anyone other than herself. I am forever mourning and grieving over this particular loss, it still hurts a lot.

Sakura, yes i know what you mean, about our DH's putting us in the role of damaged one so they can be the perfect unflawed one. But recently, i feel i have 'clawed' my way back and the balance is shifting in our relationship. I have dealt with so much of my stuff and i have a feeling DH is only now starting to open his eyes slightly to some of his 'stuff'. Until now he totally denied he even had any 'stuff' that needed dealing with ie he was perfect in his eyes, totally undamaged. But from the tiny little things he is starting to tell me about his childhood, i know like i have always known, that he too has 'stuff', deeply buried away. So there is hope for him and for us and for that i am very grateful. For a quite a while recently i felt like you, that at some point, when the DC's were older, divorce was my only option, but i don't feel that way now. I hope that somehow, one day, your DH will have the courage to open his eyes a little bit too, to the truth about his mother.

Pinky, yes I do feel lonely, i feel lonely all the time really. Right now i feel a bit closer to DH and so a bit less lonely, but really it is always there with me. Like you said, even though our family treated us badly, at least having them around gave us a place to 'belong', now, without them, I feel i am just floating around by myself, not really firmly anchored down anywhere, with no roots to give me stability. It is a strange feeling though, on the one hand sad and not nice, but on the other hand i feel quite free too. I know what you mean about this whole process being exhausting, it is totally draining and i do so wish that i could switch off from it all sometimes and just enjoy my life, but it is always there, if not at the forefront, then at the back of my mind. You are trying to find yourself, to coin a corny phrase and it is exhausting, but like you said, there is no easy way of doing it and nobody can do it for you. Have you read "The Truth Will set you Free" by Alice Miller? I would really recommend it, it's an easy read and i think it would help you.

AN, sorry i haven't responded to your recent posts, i have read them. I know what you mean about feeling you have said too much, i have done this occasionally, a while ago, but nowadays i have certain people i talk to to quite openly about all of this and with others i keep it superficial. I know it's easy to say, but please don't worry about it too much, you may feel you have said too much but you really have nothing to hide, nothing to be ashamed of. You have done nothing wrong, not now nor in the past, so there is no need to worry about talking about what heppened to you. You are no longer that little girl, you are an adult and if there are issues that arise as a result of you talking about this stuff, then i am sure you will be able to resolve them in an adult way, always bearing in mind that you are not in the wrong in any way and it's ususally other people's ignorance and lack of knowledge about this whole issue that causes problems. Please don't worry and please post on here if you need help or support about this issue.

Sorry, more about me. One of the things that bothers me a lot about all of this is the fact that as I have gone along this journey and realised i was involved in so many unhealthy toxic relationships and have ended many of those relationships, DH in particular I feel seems to think there is something wrong with me, in that it looks to him as if i am very unforgiving and cut people out of my life at the drop of a hat and i cannot seem to get on with people as i have so many problems with so many of the people in my life.

I know now that it is not me. I entered into lots of unhealthy relationships purely due to my faulty upbringing and i failed to end or set boundaries in existing relationships eg with my sisters, again because i was so damaged. Now that i am realising and recognising that nearly all the people close to me thus far have been treating me badly and now that i am unwilling to accept being treated like that and am therefore either having to end some of my relationships or set boundaries in others, I think DH sees me as unforgiving or faulty and unable to easily get on with people.

I have every confidence in myself that any relationships i choose to enter into from now on will be far healthier for me, but I am unsurprisingly quite wary and cautious now of any friendships that seem to be forming, i don't form a strong attachment to anybody that is a bit nice to me or shows a tiny bit of interest in me, almost immediately like i used to do when i was needy and craving love and affection and attention.

I am shocked and saddened now when i look back and realise just how needy i was, so needy that i would become so strongly attached to anyone who showed any interest in me at all, without even noticing who that person was or how they were treating me. And i can see now so many of my relationships were with people who could see i was non-assertive, lacking in confidence and self esteem, and i was used by all those people as their poison container, just as i was used by my parents.

I realise now i would form a deep attachment very quickly and put all my trust in people and always overlook and ignore the many ways in which they showed they didn't really give two hoots about me, had no respect for me, did not see the real me and were not interested in finding out who i was. I feel so sad that i am nearly 40 and have already spent half my life in bad relationships. Yet another loss to grieve over and another one that cannot be made up. I know the years to come will be different, but that does not make me feel any less sad about the years i have lost when i could have been forming healthy, long lasting relationships.

And again, what always makes my particular losses so hard to bear, is the knowledge that my sisters didn't suffer nearly as much as me. Their lives have been so much easier and smoother, less troublesome in every way, physical health included, all because they didn't suffer the abuse and abandonment and rejection that i was subject to. And i feel angry that they cannot see this, they cannot see that it is due to the differences in our childhoods that we are all such different people now, that we have nothing in common as sisters. My life has been so much harder than theirs, made harder by our parents, and i feel i deserve some sympathy, compassion and understanding from them because of this. And also respect from them for having survived the traumas of my childhood and achieiving what i have achieved in spite of and despite our parents. Instead i think my sisters think we all grew up on a 'level playing field' and i am now in the wrong for doing what i have done and feeling the way i feel about our parents. I know it is impossible for them to understand but i feel i want to somehow force them to understand how it was for me. Again i know logically that is impossible, i cannot force them to see anything they don't want to, but i feel i cannot give up the struggle of trying to make them see the truth. Not yet anyway. I suppose one day i will tire of banging my head against a brick wall and i will give up.

Sakura- that was very interesting what you wrote about your parents and what would they do with the rage once they no longer had you to contain it.
When I left to go overseas (an unconscious act of self preservation), everything fell apart at home. My mother fell out with middle db (the golden one) and they didn?t speak for two years as a result.
At the same time my father and mother began divorce proceedings.
My sister then ended up living alone with our mother and (for the first time) was on the same receiving end as I had been all my life.
My younger db cut of from my mother shortly after and hasn?t spoken to her since.
Remove the container and the whole family implodes.
Also- I know exactly how you and Rose are feeling right now- Nothing I can say will be of help because ?this is? the worst part of pg IMO. But your babes will soon be with you and you will feel much joy from that I promise. Sending some (un-mn like) anti-toxic dust your way

Oneplusone- I hear you, I really do. And what?s more I get it. I mean I REALLY get it. Having said that there is no quick fix but I do understand the level of the pain you are likely feeling.
I don?t know why but my relationship with my sister is/was so much more painful than that with my brothers.
I know for my part I was just ?desperate? to feel part of something and feel close to someone??anyone?, within my family.
I thought I ?did? have this with my sister, but looking back I do see now that that was a lie. I never was close to her. She would not allow it. Partly because she was too damaged, but mainly because it was in ?her? interests (if only subconsciously) to keep me in my role as ?outsider?, ?troublemaker?, ?the scapegoat? for the family.
My mother always meddled in our relationship and fed the concept that it was ?me? that was the problem and my sister was too desperate for my parent?s approval to challenge this. Besides why would she? She was brought up to see me through my mother?s eyes. Like you, she did not share my experience of being ?constantly? abused by my mother. Love or approval was in ?such? short supply in our house it was all about survival at the end of the day, so in many respects I don?t blame her.

I remember feeling ?so? hurt by her telling me when we had fallen out over something that she was scared of me and that I was SO aggressive. I only realise now that this wasn?t true. She was seeing the picture of me that my mother had painted carefully for the entire family. MY mother was the aggressor but sidestepped any blame or disapproval for this by throwing this aspect of her onto me.

I never ?decided? consciously to cut my sister out, but I did decide that I could no longer keep knocking at the same door and getting no response. My sister NEVER rang me even when I was heavily pregnant; she has visited once and stayed in a hotel.
She (like your sisters) kept things from me.

I simply couldn?t do it to myself anymore. Someone wrote on another thread a brilliant analogy about looking in an empty cupboard. This describes my relationship with my sister perfectly. I kept looking but there was nothing there. There never was.

Yes, it ?is? different for me in that my sister does not have children. Yet, I kept convincing myself that eventually things ?would? change. When I had children, when my siblings had children, but I have accepted now it will not. It is only since accepting that fact that I have had more time and energy to put into friendships which

Also, just wanted to say to rose and sakura, best of luck with your impending births. I am due to go away for a few days and won't be back til the end of next week, so you might have given birth by the time i am back. You are both strong and courageous, your babies are so very lucky to have you as their mothers. x

oneplusone - x posted with you.

' I see for eg. on tv programmes, younger people in their twenties, starting out in their careers and i can see they will achieve great things. I know they must have all their energy and resources available to them to enable them to achieve and fulfil their potential. And i always at this point feel the huge loss that i suffered, that my potential was not fulfilled and now it is too late, the circumstances are not right for me to achieve what i am capable of. If i had not been so badly damaged and pushed down and had all my energy and vitality available to me in my twenties, i know i would have achieved so much more than i actually did in my career and in other areas. It is a loss that can never be made up. '

yes I feel this too. I used to feel (not as much now) a definate rage and jealousy whenever I was in a place where there are young students. Well, in fact I am still triggered by this. I know this is the pain I feel for my loss of potential.
I had so much to give but I couldnt because of my low esteem and the fact it was my mothers job to keep me down.
I did think it was her competitiveness that kept me down but I realise it was more than this.
I had to be the 'loser' the 'disapointment' another facet of my family role and the proof my mother needed to convincingly portray 'me' as 'the problem'.

Bop- a while back you wrote about your brother. I had meant to respond before to say that I identified with what you had written.
I?m not sure it was on the same scale as you, after all I am the eldest and so I was the bigger stronger child for many years, but as my brothers grew that all changed of course.
Middle brother seemed able to do pretty much anything he liked. He used to rage around the house and completely disregarded anybody else in it. This was especially with regard to my sister and me. He was ?top dog?. What?s more he knew it and acted accordingly. He would often ?throw his weight around? as it were, and my mother gave him permission to do this. Was this another way of her enabling someone to act out ?her? rage? She would project her rage onto me, and I would be punished, but my brother?s rage was rewarded, accepted.
The way both my brothers acted and behaved was often despicable and unacceptable but they were never punished.
I remember once my brother being outrageously rude to my mother. I stood up for her, and he screamed at me to F off. He then went upstairs and proceeded to throw my belongings around in rage. My mother said nothing, except to imply I had provoked him.
How f*** up is that?
So I wanted to acknowledge your feeling on what you wrote but also to thank you for having written it. I don?t think I ever dwelled on any of this before. In truth I probably barely noticed the significance of that particular dynamic at all. It was all far to normalised for me.

And whoever wrote about waking up with dread?
Yes, yes and yes!

Sorry to crash your thread. I've "sort of" followed the thread, which from what I can see, has a very long history.

I just wanted to ask all of you, but in particular OPO and Smithfield if any of you had read a book called "Healing the Child Within" by Charles Whitworth. The reason I ask is that you talk about your childhood and the child that you were etc. The book does mention a way of dealing with this. Also, there's a book by Louise Hay which mentions this as well. I found it helped me a lot.

I "think" I had a happy childhood, but was the child of a very seriously ill father and a much younger mother who was from a dysfunctional family (she was taken away from her parents when she was 3 as she was being neglected).

I recognise and get what you've been through as I've come on a very long journey myself with coming to terms with how my family have behaved etc.

I was widowed nearly 2 years ago while I was pregnant (I also have a 12 year old son) and what my mum and my sister did then was really not to be believed, so I turned my back on them and concentrated on my little family unit of 3 - I call us the Three Musketeers. But anyway, enough about me, I just wanted to say how impressed I am by everyone's eloquence and strength

PS: Sorry, I also meant to mention ActingNormal in relation to the book...

oops - seems I lost half my post to you opo

will attempt to post second half- enjoy your trip.

I have had more time and energy to put into friendships which ?are? mutual and are reciprocated. I?m making my own rules now and will only invest in relationships where there is a mutual respect. That feels very liberating.

I can?t tell you whether to cut contact or not but you can decide (mentally) to no longer pursue something that doesn?t exist, to try and fix something that simply can?t be fixed. You will have to grieve all over again, for the loss of the relationships you ?should? have had with your sisters, but for me anyway I have come out the other side stronger and happier. The bump on my head from the constant banging on a brick wall is finally starting to heal. There will always be sadness about it but I?ve accepted (finally) it is not my fault.

As an aside, wrt your dh, did you know that vast amounts of stress in pg increase chances of pnd? I think your dh should be furnished with that knowledge perhaps.
That said, I don?t know if you can be entirely sure if you are transferring some of the anger you are currently feeling for your sisters onto dh until there is some resolution there. After all there must be so much frustration with what you want to say to your sisters but cant and that will all be building within you.

And do not feel guilty with regard to ds and nursery. If you were without the low self esteem that was thrust upon you by your family you wouldn?t have such overpowering feelings of guilt. Ds is most likely having a fine old time and benefiting from the interactions with other kiddies, whilst you are benefiting from the time to heal. It?s all about the bigger picture.

lemonylemon- Thanyou for that. I am always open to suggestions on books to read.. I gains so much from reading stuff, even snippets I find on the internet.
It is like I am constantly searching for the truth ever since ever.
I love that you call your little unit the 'three muskateers'. It shows a sense of belonging and closeness.
I am getting there with that myself but sometimes struggle as I have a tendency to project some of my rubbish onto my own little family.
The further along this path I go the more connected I feel to them them. That is a good thing as I feel finally Im looking to the right place to fill the gapping hole that exists inside of me.
Lemony- Do you feel able to post more about what happened back then when you cut off from your family. I understand if you would rather not.
You sound like you have been through a great deal.

• and lemony you are not crashing, you are contributing and more than welcome.