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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

988 replies

oneplusone · 19/05/2009 11:52

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

OP posts:
smithfield · 16/12/2009 15:35

startafresh- I think it is so hard because in essence it means you are having a superficial relationship with your sisters, yet on the surface you are all 'supposed' to be so close and loving.
I understand what a mind hash this is because on one hand I desperately 'want' that close relationship but for self preservation I have to keep it very superficial and 'light'. They do not want to know who I really am at all.
I have had to re-align my boundaries with them and I find boundaries dont come 'naturally' to me anyway.
Ive had to let my siblings drift out to the outer circle of almost 'aquaintances' who I see once or twice a year.

BeginningAnew · 16/12/2009 15:52

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smithfield · 16/12/2009 16:23

BA- You talk a lot of sense and I know I am prone to black and white thinking. I think the thing you were saying about finding a middle path which doesnt have to be a perfect one or 'the' path is very true.

I constantly find myself caught up by fear. Fear of getting it wrong and as you say it's this that silences my gut, and my intuition.
What you said about the ex boyfriend rings true for me too. I would use the example of leaving my current profession (well I prefer to call it a job). Left, went part time and went back to uni. God, I felt liberated....then the old insecurites, voices of old kicked in. 'What are you doing? Your too old to be doing this! You'll never get a job anyway! You cant afford it'

So I got pg and after having ds went back to jail my old job (at a new company in a different country)

I guess being a mum has been the one thing I have felt passionate about in a long long time. That's not to say I may not find something else stimulating along the way.

I would love to have a profession, a career that I coveted and love like you do though BA- maybe one day I will have that too.

whispywhisp · 16/12/2009 16:45

Re being a SAHM. I'm glad I decided to give up my well paid and dearly loved job 11yrs ago to become a Mum. Being a Mum is one of the most rewarding jobs - yes its hard work and yes you don't get a break and there have been many times I would dearly have loved a day to myself - but my Mum (especially) never offered to help because she seemed to think I could cope. I guess its due to her not having any help raising three kids with my Dad out at work all the time - I can remember her saying...years ago...'I coped with 3 so you can cope with 2'.

Now I have both my kids in full-time school so, at last, I get some time to myself which I absolutely love and I love nothing more than going to pick my kids up from school.

My sister put her child into full-time nursery when he was just 6mths old. He grew up in that nursery. She went back to her full-time job. She had in-laws and our parents to help when she needed the help - another odd thing here.....our parents helped her more with her child which I'm guessing is because she worked, whereas I don't so I should be able to cope? Anyway her son was in that nursery till he went into full-time education and he is now 16yrs old. He is still on Ritalin which he's been on since he was about 6yrs old because he has (allegedly) ADHD....I think its more a case of my sister and her DH simply couldn't cope with him and even now he is extremely rude and nasty towards his parents, whereas had they spent more time with him he might've been better behaved?

I look at my kids and I'm a very proud Mum. The way they are make me smile. They're polite and lovely happy girls.....and I take pride in the fact that they've turned out that way due to the sheer hard work, patience and care provided by me and DH.

wanttostartafresh · 16/12/2009 20:24

smithfield, I love your description of how you have 'managed' your sibling relationships. Do you feel you have reached the point where they are just aquaintances and do you feel you have accepted your situation and no longer feel the pain of it all?

I think I am still quite a long way off from not feeling hurt by my sisters, hurt by the very fact that I know we can probably never be any more than just superficial aquaintances. I want and need so much more. I still feel incredibly sad when I think about our relationship being merely superficial, although that is exactly what it is.

As I write I realise that I did go through the same process wrt my relationship with my parents. It did end up, for years and years, before I eventually cut ties altogether, being merely superficial. We were like strangers who happened to be living in the same house. There was no sharing of private thoughts, fears, feelings, we were just like mere aquaintances who had somehow ended up living together and despite being physically so close to each other, all in one house, in every other way we were so far apart. But in order to get to that point with one's own parents, when one was still only a child....I just can't imagine how I must have felt during the years it must have taken until I eventually became completely emotionally detached from them. I am finding it so hard now as an adult to let go of my sisters because I need something from them that I suppose i must feel only they, as family, will be able or willing to give me. And that must have been how i felt wrt my parents. Because all I can ever remember feeling is being completely detached from them. But before i reached the point of being completely detached, i must have still had an attachment to them and I must have still wanted and needed them desperately to be and do what parents are supposed to do, but I must have been hurt over and over again so many times, continuously over the years that i must have eventually reached a point where i gave up hope of ever getting what i needed from them. I suppose it is at that point when i must have let go of them, let go of all hope that one day they might want me and love me and would let me be my real self and still love me. It must have been terrible to go through that as a child or teenager, but I can't remember when it happened. It must have happened gradually so it is unlikely i would be able to pinpoint one particular day or moment when it happened. But that means that during the years whilst i gradually gave up hope of my parents ever showing they loved me I must have continuously felt in pain. And yet i can't remember anything like that. I just seem to remember the first few incidents of abuse and then i have a large blank wrt how i felt and then i remember feeling a lot of anger and hostility towards my parents. So i would say i have a memory blank of about 6/7 years, from the age of 10 to 17. 10 is when the abuse started and 17 is around when i remember consciously feeling like i hated my dad and not caring any more about what he thought or said or did good or bad, I must have been completely numb by then, that would have been the only way to survive all those years of feeling i was hated by my dad and did not matter to my mum who only paid attention to my sisters and totally ignored me.

I realise I still have loads to do, loads more work on myself, just as i thought i had come so far and only had a little way more to go. I shouldn't be surprised, I have been here many times before.

I knew something was up when i kept bursting into tears today at nothing really, felt down and depressed for no real reason and felt lethargic and lacking in the energy i had just a few days ago.

PinkyMinxyPie · 16/12/2009 21:02

Whispy my mum says she coped with 3 but clearly she didn't. It's interesting how my parents can rewrite themselves. She claims that no-one helped her, but she definitely dumped me on my nanas every weekend.

My father likes to portray himself as a loving dog owner. But I can remember vividly how he used to take our dog out to the woods so he could 'teach him to behave'. He used to beat that dog with a stick. He beat our old cat becuase she became incontinent. And yet now he likes to give the impression of being the mild-mannered gentle dog owner. Maybe he is now, I don't know.

The rages my parents would go into do not bear thinking about. But it was the causal hitting, pushing, poking me around, the subtle ways she had of making me trip over and the look of satisfaction on her face, it gave her pleasure. Then she would say 'oh I didn't hit you hard' etc. etc. Sometimes she did hit me hard, sometimes she didn't, but it was those looks of pleasure that hurt the most. I think it really damaged my sense of self worth. It also led to a lot of my confusion as a child, because someone you love so much gaining pleasure from being mean to you really messes with your head.

I still feel a bit of a fraud talking about these things- like it was not my life. I wonder if this is purely because of the 'gaslighting' of my parents, or if it is do do wit withdrawing from it myself as a form of self preservation?

wtsa, I was thinking about the sibling thing, and I think a lot of my problems stemmed from the way my mother dealt with normal, natural sibling rivalry.The way she talks about it is very strange, alomst like I should be blamed for it- it was my fault becuase if I hadn't been born my sister would not have felt jealous, and her way of dealing with it was to be rejecting of me, to always make sure my sister felt better than me, had nicer things,was the only beautiful girl, clever one etc. My sister, according to my mother was jealous of me being home with my mother when she went to school- so she would make her feel better about it by telling her she never played with me or took me anywhere- which was true, of course. But I don't know which came first.

It was so damaging because it fed all my sister's negative emotions but never allowed her to process them and put them in proportion. I've seen it in a much miilder form with one of my Ds's friends. His father gets him anything another child has,I presume so he doesn't feel jealous,but of course all it does is give a massive validation to feelings of jealousy, becuase if his father thinks it needs to be gratified it must be a really big deal, to a childs mind. The result is that this little boy always has to have ten of whatever someone else has. He can never just say'oh that's a nice thing, lets play with it' like my son and his other buddies can,or even just say 'I wish I had that' and let the feeling pass. Other people having stuff becomes a great source of anxiety to this boy. And I think in a similar way my sister is trapped in this loop of needing to feel better than me, or know that I have less or whatever, so that she can feel ok and loved by my mother. Does any of this make sense? I don't know.

OrdinarySAHM · 17/12/2009 10:25

Pinky, hearing about how it was for you makes me so sad. I so agree about hitting etc hurting more because of the emotional side of it than the physical pain. The emotional side of it is what I remember long term, not the physical. The fact that someone could hurt you physically on purpose and do it because they enjoy it hurts because it makes you feel they must hate you if they don't empathise with how they are making you feel at all and the thought of what they are doing to you doesn't stop them. It makes you feel you are worth nothing to them and maybe that means you are worth nothing to anyone.

I felt unimportant full stop because I had thoughts like "he wouldn't do this to someone who was more important, more 'cool' and stronger (which proves I am weak)". I also felt disgusted with myself for not having the strength to stop people - not just physical strength, but the emotional strength to actually say 'stop' in a firm enough way for people to take notice.

I felt I just couldn't do it, and I was weak, so the things that were happening would carry on happening and this was my fault for being weak. This was reinforced by being ridiculed in front of others. I wanted to feel important and valued and respected and liked, and that someone was impressed by me, but whenever I started to feel a little bit better there would be another incident and I would feel cross with myself for ever hoping I could be anything more than what I was.

I think the most important thing to remember is that we thought this was all about us, and was a 'measure' of how crap we were and how unloveable, and was our fault in some way, or our fault for not being capable of stopping it, but it DID NOT happen because we were crap, it happened because the people who did it had things wrong with them.

Not being able to empathise with someone, especially someone who is supposed to be family, to such an extent that you can hurt them on purpose and feel no guilt, just pleasure, is not normal! Can you imagine hurting someone much smaller, weaker and more vulnerable than you on purpose because you enjoyed it and feeling no guilt - of course you can't! I can kind of see how someone might do it in the heat of a surge of anger, especially if it is the victim specifically who has done something to make the abuser angry, and then feel guilt after (although I'm not saying this is right at all), but doing it on a day to day basis just because they want to is very hard to understand (for a NORMAL person). People who do this do it because THEY are sick, not because there was something wrong with the victim.

OrdinarySAHM · 17/12/2009 10:36

WTSAfresh, this bit which you wrote seems to sum up the damage that was done to you and I felt that it would be somehow useful for you to just look at it put simply in one sentence on its own, away from the details:

"all those years of feeling i was hated by my dad and did not matter to my mum who only paid attention to my sisters and totally ignored me".

The long term effect is that you feel unimportant to anyone and unloveable compared to everyone else and grieving about not feeling loved by anyone as a child, but alone. And fear about this lonliness happening again.

It's the 'everyone' bit you should work on, by remembering that it isn't everyone, just your old family. The way they were gave your brain a template of what the whole world is like, not just them, but it isn't true - they taught you wrongly, so you need to unlearn it.

OrdinarySAHM · 17/12/2009 10:42

Also, there were things we needed from our families and didn't get, and we still want those things, but we have to remember that we can't get those things from people who are incapable of giving them. If they were incapable then, and have always been incapable, it is most likely they will always be incapable in the future.

We have to get those things from other people. We might not be able to get all of it because there may be limits on what people can do/feel for you if they are not your mother/father/sister/brother etc, but we should try to find as much of it as possible in other relationships.

The more you find what you need in other relationships the easier it becomes to let go of the problem relationships.

whispywhisp · 17/12/2009 12:09

Went to my Mum's yesterday. Saw she'd got an Xmas card from my sister. She's also got one from my brother. There is a card there for my brother from my sister too.

I've not had anything from either. I'm guessing my sister's request to cut all ties with me (effective from the Summer of this year) is definite then? She's never not sent a Christmas card to me and my DH and kids. Best get used to this 'no contact' melarky that she's asked for then.

Hey ho. I'm not going to let it get to me.

whispywhisp · 17/12/2009 12:13

I've just been reading thru also some of the latest posts on here. Makes some very sad reading.

I was never hit by my parents but I was slapped across the face a few times. I remember having the heart of a lettuce rammed in my throat by my father (it was so bitter) because I refused to eat it. His behaviour towards me scared me so much. I was about 8-9yrs old at the time.

My parents had my Grandparents to help them out during the holidays etc. We would regularly go and stay with them for a week or so. I have never had the offer of ONE DAY of having my kids from anyone. After almost 11yrs I've got so used to not having anyone to ask to have my kids - apart from my mates (who are wonderful) and there is even an elderly lady who lives two doors from me who has agreed to be called 'Nanny' and who absolutely adores my kids. Thank goodness for some kind souls out there.

PinkyMinxyPie · 17/12/2009 14:23

Thank you OSAHM. I think the implication when people bully others is always that if you can't take their 'fun' then you are weak, I think I've said before that my fathers response to hearing I was bullied at school was that 'people of character rise above these things'. I thing he is fundamentaly wrong. People who have developed a strong sense of self-worth through loving and nurturing early relationships with their primary caregivers are emotionally equipped to deal or to seek help with 'these things', they do not feel they deserve it or that it is their fault.

Whispy, I think what your father did sounds horrible- can you imagine doing that to one of your own children?

Re your sister I think you can let it get to you, inasmuch as you have the right to feel hurt by it. You cna grieve the loss of your sis- I know I did, early on with nmy therapist, he had this baket of stones and I hung into the one for my sis for the full hour.Whne I put it back in the basket I felt something quit fundamental had occured.

As OSAHM says, we have to look for the things lacking in our family relationships in other people. I don't know about you, but for me this is quite liberating, because of the control my mother has exerted over me I have never felt the 'right' to form strong attachments away from her. I like having a couple of friends to rely upon, it's a lovely, grown -up feeling.

Can I ask why the Christmas cards seem to be distributed via your mother? Is this just a practicality, or is ther another reason? Just curious. MY brother I think made an attempt at cutting me and DH off their xmas gift/card list, and I have no idea wrt my sis, but DH and I made the decision to send cards and gifts as normal. I have tried to behave in as normal a way as possible with my family, sadly all it seems to do is expose more layers of dysfunction but hey ho.

BeginningAnew · 17/12/2009 15:58

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whispywhisp · 17/12/2009 16:49

I've been over to my Mum's this aftn - there is a sack of presents for my kids from my sister...whilst I know this is lovely and very kind of her...do I take them or not? Bearing in mind she doesn't want to talk to me/contact me and made it perfectly clear that she wants no more to do with me?

PinkyMinxyPie · 17/12/2009 20:05

BA Thank you for your post, for sharing that with me, I can relate to so much of it.

I didn't mean that everyone seemed so sorted, I meant that I still seem stuck in that disbelieveing phase, thta sort of shock bit where it all seems totally unreal and I am still fumbling from one disasterous attempt to get on with my family to another. There is a phrase that is often used in the art teaching world, about how it is an artists job to be in the world -society etc. but also to step outside of it so that the work an artist creates challenges our perceptions of the here and now. I think that is what I meant. Getting some distance from the whole mess so that I can look at it from a new perspective. I am trying, I really am. I just meant that many of the people on here seem to be able to find that place, and this is a good thing, somewhere I really want to be. But I ony started all this after the birth of my last child, and she is only 1. I have 39 years to undo- and I can so relate to that pain of feeling so much of my life has been taken from me, to feed the emotional harpie that is my mother.

Another interesting thing is that my therapist described separating from this dysfunction as being a bit like withdrawing from an addiction. When you are addicted to some awful drug have a self-destructive desire to serve it, in a way, and you become addicted to the way it makes you feel. My life was full of adrenalin in some ways- a near constant state of anxiety with self-destructive waves of emotion. The more I tried to please my parents the more rejecting and abusive they become.

It is all so complicated.

Whispy I cannot say what is the right thing for you to do with these presents. My chiden are young. I have a tendency to give them the gifts but throw the cards away, but with older children it's not so simple, is it. If you feel there is hope for your relationship with your sister, maybe you can let thigns pass this Christmas, I don't know.

PinkyMinxyPie · 17/12/2009 20:13

BA I also wanted tosay that I have been with myDH since I was 19. He was quite wild, too, but is a pretty sound guy. He tried so many times to tell me that the way my family treat me is not right, but I could not see it, or face it. He did not see the full extent of my mother's lunacy until our children were born, and feels that sometimes he has been manipulated by her, and feel terrible about it. But as we know, these people are experts at what they do.

It was the birth of my children and the increasingly overt craziness of my mother wrt her obesseion with my son thta brough tmy own childhood sharply into focus. I think until then I was really on self-destruct and thought my DH would be better off without me anyway. WHen I had children this 'exit stratergy' was no longer an option and I have had to face up to things for the sake of my family. I feel liek a bit of a coward,for leaving it so long, and I am sorry for my DH that I dragged him along too. Perhaps it is just as well that he does not like to dweel too muh on thigns and likes to look forward.

BeginningAnew · 17/12/2009 21:00

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PinkyMinxyPie · 17/12/2009 22:25

BA I'm not sure but I sense that I have upset you and for that I am very sorry.

I've been going every week since my DD2 was 10 weeks old. I am trying really hard, I really am. I find it difficult to let go of my feelings. I have felt defeated for a long time and I think it is hard for me to summon up the willpower,which sounds pathetic, doesn't it? I think I fear I may be causing my family more trouble by going through this process, I knwo my DH finds it very difficult.

I deeply regret the post I made the other day,it was badly worded and I think I may have upset the lovely people on this thread. I am aware that I spoil things with the things I say. I wish I could feel pure joy as you describe but I fear that I never get there.

I am determined to do this thing, for the sake of my children adn my DH, none of whom I feel I desrve.

And now I think I sound like a self pitying loon so I will shut up.

BeginningAnew · 17/12/2009 23:18

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BeginningAnew · 17/12/2009 23:24

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BeginningAnew · 17/12/2009 23:27

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whispywhisp · 18/12/2009 07:27

That's just it re the presents.

If I reject them I look ungrateful. If I accept them I appear two-faced. I don't want her to claim 'oh she's fine about me not wanting anything to do with her but she takes the presents'.

On the surface she's left them at my Mums...for one good reason only....to show Mum how generous she is, again. She always takes gifts for my kids to my Mum's and leaves them there. My sister and I live in the same town. My Mum lives 10miles away. She's also left them there cos she knows she cut her ties with me and obviously doesn't feel comfortable coming here.

I've a good mind to go put them on her doorstep - after all she doesn't want to know me anymore? Or is that childish of me? That's how it would be perceived by everyone else in this family.

DH said remember they are presents for the kids.....this is a dispute between me and my sister....or rather a dispute my sister has with me....but by her cutting her ties with me surely means she's cut her ties with my kids too until they're old enough to do what they want?

OrdinarySAHM · 18/12/2009 09:29

Whispy, if it was me, I think I would take the presents and let the kids benefit from them and just send a quick text saying just "thank you for the kids' presents".

It would be deranged for her to give you the presents if she didn't want you to accept them, and then criticise you for being two faced! If she does criticise you, could you just say "it was your decision to give them to us. If we hadn't accepted them you would have found that to be wrong too".

Pinky, you are worried you have upset people but I really can't think of anything you have said that we would find upsetting on here! I can't think which bit you would think of as being bad! Don't worry, we are not your old family and we are not like them.

PinkyMinxyPie · 18/12/2009 10:31

Lord I don't know what is going on with me at the moment. But this is just typical of me. I say what I'm thinking and instantly feel that I have said the wrong thing and upset everybody. I am so sorry.. again. Please just ignore.

BA, thank you for your posts they really do give me hope.

I just always have a gut feeling that people wish I would just go away. I supppose that is what I have been conditioned to feel.

Whispy I have had al sorts of angry thoughts like not sending my sis a card or a present, and really the things she had said would make me entirley justified. But it's just not the way I am, and i feel that not sending her something would be like accepting that I have done anything wrong, and I really haven't. I have to keep reminding myself that all I have done is ask my mother to let me know what time she was coming when visiting me, and I have not answered every phonecall thety make. hardly a big thing, is it?

Personally I don't think it is as simple as it being just between you and your sis. I don't know about you, butt my family have been trying to bypass me to spend time with my DC. My parents barely acknowledge DH or my presence when we meet them and they only address the children. My little DD1 actually introduced us to them on her birthday. Whne my mother or sis sends things to them I do not let them know who they are from, becasue they are trying to buy my, well basically my son's favour and I'm not going to let it happen.

BeginningAnew · 18/12/2009 11:14

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