Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

[oneplusone]

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

Having just read the most recent posts on this thread it all rings very true with me.

I have, more so in the past, regularly argued with DH over 'his family'....no matter what he will always ALWAYS defend them until towards the end of the argument/heated discussion he can then see where I'm coming from and finally admits they're such an odd family. He's defended his Mother when she became very drunk at our wedding, he's defended his father for calling me some of the most awfully rude names, he's defended his brother for failing to let us know if he was coming to our wedding and then not bothering to anyway....there were many times I could easily have walked away from my marriage to keep my own sanity...!!

They have done nothing but cause us aggro and grief over the years. I think men will always defend their parents/siblings.

Anyway I've still not heard from my sister. I doubt I'll hear from my brother. And I need to go and see my Mum but, tbh, she is so wrapped up in what my brother and sister I doubt she'd even notice I wasn't around.

Rose, thank you so much for your posts. You are very right when you say happy families do not operate with one family member cutting themselves off. I suppose I have always felt so seperate and disconnected from everyone in my family that I have felt that they could actually operate as a functioning family without me, because they all seemed to genuinely love and care for each other and by getting rid of me, they have got rid of the dysfunctional part of the family. It's like i was the rotten branch of the tree and by being cut off the rest of the tree is then able to grow normally and healthily.

I still am not entirely sure whether I have got this right. I suppose my dilemma is a bit like PM's, was I the person causing the family to be dysfunctional? And now that I am gone, they can re-form into a functional family of 4, and pretend i had never existed. That is how they always made me feel. I always felt that I was the one causing all the problems within the family and if i wasn't around, they would all be happy and normal and and problem free and function properly as a family should function. At the same time I do also know that it wasn't me who was causing the dysfunction but my parents, but it is very hard to fully shake off the impression they always gave me that it was me who was the problem member of the family and their lives would all be a lot better if i was not part of the family. That is how i have felt for so long that it is hard to feel any other way, even knowing intellectually as I do, that it was not me, it was my parents, and that I was simply reacting to them and behaving in whatever manner i had to in order to survive the abuse and neglect i was experiencing as a child. They always, all of them, made me believe I was the problem.

PM, i just wanted to say that I regret giving you the impression that I am always 'together'. What you should know is that i usually only feel able to post when i have working through an issue and feel i understand it and myself. I tend not to post when i am in turmoil, confused, upset and depressed. So it might seem as if i am ok, but i can assure you that a lot of the time i am not.

I was feeling ok during the last few days, but then today i had a very shaky morning, bursting into tears. I've been thinking about how painful and difficult it has been for me to emotionally detach from my sisters. For some silly reason i had thought that the process of detaching from them would be an 'overnight' type of thing.... I would have the realisation and it would just happen and I would be completely detached in a day. But now I have realised that it is actually a very slow and gradual process. It doesn't happen overnight. I realise I thought it would happen overnight as that is how i thought i became emotionally detached from my parents. But I have realised now, painfully, that the process of detaching from my parents which I must have gone through as a child, must have been a slow and gradual process, it wouldn't have happened instantaneously after the first incident of abuse. When the abuse from my dad first started, when i was 10, I must initially have been totally bewildered and confused and hurt and upset by his behaviour. And my confusion must have been made worse by the fact that in between the abuse, he would seem to revert back to the nice, kind, caring dad he had been before. So I wouldn't have emotionally detached from him straightaway. It must have happened gradually, as the abuse continued and my mother continued to ignore it and do nothing to help me. I must have gradually and slowly gone from feeling hurt and upset and totally confused by the change in my dad and his changed behaviour and feelings towards me, seemingly from love to hate, to gradually becoming emotionally detached from both my parents. I am sure the process took place without me even realising, i had some very close and intense friendships at the time and the security and stability i got from them must have masked the feelings being caused by my parents. If i had not perhaps had the benefit of those friendships, during the years when the abuse was at it's worst, i cannot really bear to imagine the pain i would have felt. I realise now how crucial those friendships were in almost protecting me and insulating me from feeling the real pain of what i was going through at home.

I felt very upset today though at knowing that as a child, i went through the process i am now going through wrt emotionally detaching from my sisters. I am an adult and I understand what is going on and it still hurts at times. I really cannot imagine how painful it must have been for me as a child to go through a similar process of detachment wrt my parents without any of the understanding that I have now. It just doesn't bear thinking about. I am sure that it must have been so painful for me as a child that in order to protect myself and survive through it all, my brain shut down the part that is normally meant to process emotional pain and to this day, i cannot feel emotional pain. I just feel numb if somebody says something to me where normally I should feel pain at their words or actions. But the emotional pain seems to manifest itself physically in my body where i can feel pain. I have noticed time and time again when eg DH says something i know intellectually has hurt me, i don't feel the pain emotionally, but very soon after, i notice a little tiny cut on my finger, which although tiny is very painful. For a while i just thought the little cuts i would get on my fingers now and then were due to my eczema, and they are, but they always appear after somebody has said something hurtful, nasty, uncaring to me. I am totally convinced that even though my brain has numbed itself so i cannot feel emotional pain, the emotion still makes itself felt, but in a physical way.

I also have been feeling so angry at the sheer magnitude of the ways i have suffered because of my eczema, too many to list here, knowing now that all along the suffering was due to my parents. And how i always kept quiet about what i was feeling and how hard it was for me at times, i would cry silently to myself at night, but never ever would i tell my parents how i felt, because i knew they would get annoyed/angry with me for making them feel inadequate/uncomfortable/failures by talking about my condition. If i ignored it, they could also ignore it and that is what they always preferred to do. Ignore my condition, and leave me to suffer alone and in silence. And that is exactly what i did, i felt i was the problem in the family anyway, if i talked about my eczema it would make it even more certain that it was me who was causing all the problems within the family. I think i almost felt guilty if i made a fuss about my eczema, i was bad enough already by just being me, i certainly shouldn't make things even worse by talking about my problems. I did not deserve any attention for my problems, i should just keep my head down and keep quiet and not make things worse by demanding that my parents take notice of and help me with my eczema.

wsta You have got it the wrong way round, I think, but it is exactly how I feel, too. In fact my mother has always talked about how close my brother and sister were growing up - I always got the distinct impression they were meant to be a family of four. It could well be that I was an accident, I don't know. But I see now how bonkers it all was. The age gaps between me and my siblings are almost exactly the same as my own children and they all interact with each other with equal measure. My baby daughter is treated as a person by her siblings- in a way that I was encouraged not to be. 'I'm not going if she's going' 'does she have to come too?' were questions that rang constantly in my ears. And the answer was seemingly no she does not have to come, because as a rule I was left at home. Or my father was given the task of running his errands with me in the car, ignored, whilst my mother enjoyed the company of her favoured children. As a mother of three I know full well that looking after just two of the children is very easy compared to all three (though now I have so much less anxiety I find that easier too), but I don't habitually send one away or leave one at every opportunity.

I was left at home on my own, I am certain of this now.

My therapist does not think there is any point talking to my brother. He thinks my whole interaction with him yesterday demonstrates how my brother really doesn't care. Sounds harsh, but I think he is right.

As you say wtsa it takes time to withdraw emotionally from these people. I think my relationships have been badly eroded over time and endless little acts of abuse from them, but it will still take time for me to let go completley.

Whispy my therapist describes it as climbingout of a tin of treacle. It takes time to get it all off even once you are out of the tin.

I had a really good session today. I think he was doing his pre-christmas bolster everyone up sessions, because I feel a lot better.

Once DH has dropped of the family's presents off at my parents house I can forget about them for the rest of Christmas.

I'm sorry I was being pathetic yesterday. I did not mean people did not seem upset.

Hey PM- Glad you are feeling better. It is most certainly your family who are the issue and not you. I read everything you say and they are truly warped in their interactions.
I love that analogy of the tin of treacle. That feels exactly what it is like. It does take time.
I often think about a point in time when I was at a very low ebb and I decided to go abroad to get away. I think that was my survival instinct kicking in. But I had to come back shortly after I had left because my nan fell ill and I really wanted to see her as I knew I might not get another opportunity.
A friend ,I was close to at the time, said that when I came back to the UK to see my nan I was like a different person, confident, happy...This was at first though, she also noted the difference in me by the time I went back overseas afterwards (which was just 4 weeks later!)
Of course Id spent the majority of those four weeks (all but a few days) with my family.
Says it all really. They are incredibly damaging to be around, and why should I sacrifice myself for them? Yes,` I would 'love' to have a family (other than the one I have with DC's and Dh) but I dont and part of this process for me has been coming to terms with all of that.

Sorry I havent been on for ages - i needed a nreak from the site for various reasons.
Just wanted to do a quick post though for opo (sorry cant rem what you namechanged to)

Well i cant belive what happened today. You know how we both say about our sisters and wanting them to understand? I had given up on this and the last was that i told my sister i couldnt see her anymore as i couldnt deal with it being false...

She phoned me up today to say she was ready to talk and she now sees i didnt not have her bridesmaid as i was being horrible but that i was really hurting. That me not walking to school with her and being horrible as a child was my mothers fault for not stopping it and not mine and that she sees that there was no room for me to fall apart when i was a child and had my breakdown now...

I am amazed and was really pleased, but then got off the phone and my worries come up. I am not sure if i want to go down this road now, to discuss the past which is odd as its what i wanted. I suppose i just feel content hearing it wasnt my fault. I still think my sister can be a drama queen and there were things she was saying that i really didnt agree with, i mean saying how horrioble i was as a child puts it onto me again.

i dont know, just wanted to post.

My DD is being really difficult at the moment (she has these phases) and I COULD see her as being 'the problem in the family' who makes family life hard work, and without her things would be easier, BUT, even though she drives me absolutely nuts at times, I know that she is NOT the problem.

Her behaviour is often difficult to cope with, yes, but it is my job as her mother to teach her how to behave acceptably and get along with the people around her. She hasn't learnt this yet because she is a CHILD. I'm finding it hard to find ways to make her understand how she should behave and to co-operate but it doesn't mean I can give up and write her off as a 'problem', I just have to keep trying. Parenting is hard but we chose to do it. The children didn't ask to be born.

I'm writing this for those of you who have moments of self doubt when you worry that YOU were 'the problem' for your family while you were growing up. If one of your children was being difficult, like mine, you would think the way I do and this is how your parents should have thought because you were a CHILD. Your parents should have been the responsible ones. It is their fault if they didn't manage the family properly, not yours.

Ordinarysahm you don't know how much I needed to hear what you've just said. I'm in a bad place with my anger about my childhood at the moment - it all feels numb again and I feel cold and empty inside when i know I'm actually furious. Your post has helped me to come out of that numbness and back into rage, which I think I need. Thank you.

Sb1, that sounds great - that your sister is beginning to understand. I think you are sensible to be 'careful' though, and it is only natural if you feel suspicious of what she says when it is so different from what she has said for a long time.

I think it kind of illustrates how people are really desperate to see their parents as having been good, because they want to avoid the pain of accepting that their parents did anything wrong, and it takes something big - like you cutting off your sister - for them to make themselves face up to the truth.

I didn't feel I was the problem as a child but I certainly feel that way now. Even now I feel I'm the child that's always in the wrong and I'm almost 42! For once, back in the Summer, when I stood up and said what I thought of a situation concerning my siblings...I stood my ground and didn't back down, like I normally would, I end up with my elder sister cutting her ties. DH says she simply couldn't cope with me showing my stubborn streak and not falling in what she and my brother wanted me to do....part with money I didn't have and go along with the plans THEY had made for OUR Mum's birthday without even asking me/involving me yet I asked them countless times to 'let me in' and help. I don't have a joint income of over £60k a year coming into their individual houses....

I look at myself and just say 'why' ?. What have I done? Am I that horrible?

I look at my kids and, if anything, smother them with love because I had none as a child. I've never really spoken about how it was for me as a child before now other than to DH. Simply because I used to worry people would think I was just being stupid or selfish.

I often remind my kids that they need to remember how lucky they are, especially the elder one who is of an age when life for me as a child was pretty miserable. Is that the right thing to do or not?

I think also my parents have always (especially my Mum) loved the fact that my sister earns major money, my brother married into money and me?....I'm a boring old SAHM who works from home.....and gets by. Maybe I'm a bit of a disappointment for her? This isn't envy on my part...I love being at home with my kids and have (so far) enjoyed bringing them up myself but I guess that is boring in comparison to what they've achieved.

Whispy- That is by no means boring by comparison, that is your mothers own feelings which she projects on to you. Probably on to all of her children.

I understand where you are coming from with this because I always feel like the 'loser' in my family. Not a nice thing to say about myself I know, and on some rational level I know it isnt true but on a much deeper level because of how I have felt/been made to feel for so many years it is ingrained.

My siblings constantly flaunt (or so it feels) their wealth but (apart from younger DB) my siblings have been given everything on a plate where as I ahve worked for all that I have.

At some point in the last few years, I started to question the view my parents and siblings have of me. Started to think that what I 'do' have is just as good as what they have (on some levels it is better than they have). For one thing, I have insight and for another I know that the people I have in my life now love me for me and not for what I have.

And actually whispy (Its horses for courses) but I would love to be a SAHM more than anything.

I would also love another child....takes courage to do what is right for YOU and be true to yourself. I wonder if your siblings could say the same.

Whispy, there is nothing wrong with you, they have done things because deep down they don't feel good enough themselves and they do things to try to feel better about themselves. Unfortunately this seems to involve flaunting their money and making people who have less out to be inferior to them. Surely there are better ways to feel better about themselves rather than by upsetting other people. I bet you have more intelligence than to do that.

I've never really understood the measuring of people by how much they earn either, and I love being a SAHM with no job outside the home. I can admire people's job titles and salaries in the sense of appreciating how hard they might have worked to get that job, or how confident they might have been to get it, but I'm more likely to admire people for how worthwhile the things they do are in terms of improving the world or helping people, or if they are particularly talented at something. Or I admire them simply because they have ways about them which make me enjoy being with them, or because of attitudes and thoughts they have which I think are good.

Thank you smithfield.

Its quite sad actually but it wasn't until my Dad had a bad car crash a few years ago, just a few weeks before he died, that, I think, he suddenly realised that I wasn't so bad after all. Because his car was written off and he was unable to drive due to his injuries but had to go to regular physio appts I ferried him to the hospital and back twice a week, I took Mum shopping, I helped Dad with his insurance paperwork...or I simply went to say hello and have a cuppa with him because no-one else bothered after the initial shock of the accident. I think he then realised that sometimes having someone visit without bearing gifts or offering to pay for a new car (my siblings) meant more to him than a son and daughter whose lives revolve around their bulging wallets. Just a few days before he very sadly passed away he told his neighbour how much I and my DH and our kids meant to him. Just a shame it took so many years for him to see this. My Mum, on the other hand, still thinks my brother is wonderful, generous and basically the best son you could ever ask for and my sister is the most kind, caring person on this earth. Me? Well, we won't go there. Clearly I'm not a lot!

Oh and how do I know what my Mum thinks of her other kids? Because she regularly reminds me.

Also...here's another funny thing...I've been married for 17yrs. I've never received a Wedding Anniversary card from my Mum. Not one.

My brother has one every year. He has been married for about 6yrs.

I mentioned this to Mum the other day...and I have to be so careful how I talk to her about such things without appearing childish...she told me she has never sent me one because she can't remember when I got married.

So I told her....I gave her the exact date and, in joke, I told her to send me 18 cards at my next anniversary!!! She laughed but I doubt she'll remember it again.

I'm sure, through the eyes of my brother and sister being a SAHM = lazy. Especially my sister...she has always had an array of people who could have her DS when she's been at work and its school hols...I have no-one. My Mum isn't interested and the last time I asked her to have my kids for just a couple of hours was 'why?' - so I had to justify my request...so I didn't bother. DH's parents don't want to know and my mates have their own kids. When DD2 started school my sister immediately said 'you going back out to work then?'. My reply?...'no, who can have them when they're off?'....she couldn't answer that one. It suits me to work from home - yes the money is pretty crap but it just means I'm here for my kids which means more to me than a large salary and the title that goes with it.

...and before I get shot I'm not slating those that work and use a childminder etc but in the ideal world that's what my siblings have often said I should do...but its not how I wanted to do it but it clearly isn't good enough because I'm not earning the £40k a year they're on....and therefore don't 'fit in'. I admire those that work with kids too...I just physically can't do it unless I left the kids 'home alone' and with DD2 only being 5 that simply won't do!

I can't see what could be a more important job than looking after your children and teaching them how to live in a way that they can be happy in their lives and make the people around them happy.

I want to be the one who does this for my children rather than paying someone else to do it, because I want to be important . I don't think for me personally, having a megabucks job and a childminder would make me feel important.

Some people have to have a job as well as looking after their children for financial reasons and that is fine. Some people don't feel happy if they don't have a job outside the home and an unhappy mother is likely to be a worse mother than a happy one so that is fine. What is not fine is people trying to make you feel inferior for the way you do it when you are doing what you feel is the best thing for your family.

Someone on here mentioned inner voice and becoming more adept at listening to it. Whispy's post has made me think about this again, because this seems to be a major thing with me at the moment.

I do not know how to identify which is my own voice. I have no sense of self trust.

I understand 'why' this is to a large extent, because my parents (mainly my mothers) manipulations involved undermining me and my decisions any way she could. I never learnt as a result to trust in my own instincts or decisions

Also I have so many defence mechanisms and self preserving techniques that I use to protect myself. I feel like my own voice lay buried underneath and I have no way of getting to it.

There is the defence of rebellion, where if someone says I 'should' or 'shouldnt' do something it makes me more determined, because I hate with a passion the feeling of control or being controlled.
There is the defence of avoidence, where I will avoid doing particular things because I cant cope with the anxiety or fear of failure. Failure to me means not being able to do something 'perfectly', therefore I set myself up for failure anyway.

I guess I am asking these questions and wanting desperately to know what 'smithfield' really wants and when and how can she start being true to 'herself' and 'her' needs.

Do I really want to give up work? Or am I trying to 'avoid' feeling a sense of failure. Failure because I cant perform perfectly.

Do I want to have another child? Or do I want a child to continue to block out pervasive feelings of lonliness and loss or worse in order to avoid having to make the decision to leave work myself in some way.

Then there is also a distinct feeling of not deserving things. I feel as though if I give in to my need to be at home with my children
that is selfish of me and self indulgent. I just want to add at this point that actually I am able to give up work at this point because of a financial decision that was made by me many years ago, so you would think I would be able to give myself a break from the selfish label.

I think the same of having another child, that in some way I wouldnt deserve that because I am not a perfect mother and I wouldnt be able to cope. Its all so confusing.

Yet I see other women go ahead with decisions and meeting their own needs without hesitation. Its hard to explain to others why I am inclined to literally 'fight' with myself over things.

The selfish thing makes some sense because this is something my mother called me all the time. 'You are SO SELFISH!' she would scream at me. Literally at anytime I wanted to go against what she wanted.

I have written about this before but I have no idea who the 'real' smithfield is. The one that may have existed if the love she grew up with had been unconditional and accepting.

The one that exists now has build a huge construction around herself based on need for approval and a need to defend herself at all costs.

DH's version of who I am is completely contrasted with the version I have of myself.

Sorry am going off on huge tangents. I know none of this post will make sense. All a bit like my head feels at the moment , like a big jumbled mess. Yet I do feel like I am on the cusp of s major breakthrough as well (perhaps?). I do hope so.

Sorry -x posted then guys- Now I feel like I just butted in with the me me me stuff-

OSAHM- Laughed at that bit about being important - me too

Also whispy- When I was at home on mat leave after having DD I would say in some ways it was 'more' stressful than being at work. I never got a break from the Dc's because people didnt think I needed it. Whereas when you are working people go 'Oh you must be so busy' 'Can I help'? 'Do you need a break'.
So no SAHM def does not = Lazy. Stuff what your sister thinks .
Who knows she may be secretly jealous of you but is such a slave to her material needs she has to supress what she wants. Or am I talking about me again

Smithfield, would it work if you tried reading the following questions and noticing how you feel before you have much time to think? To help you get more idea of what the real Smithfield wants?.....

do you enjoy being at work?

Do you enjoy being at home more?

Does the thought of having another child make you feel excited and happy?

PM, I can so relate to what you said about feeling like your family wanted to be a family of 4 not 5, ie minus yourself....me too. I always always felt, because that is how they made me feel, that I was the odd one out, the trouble maker, the cause of all family rows and disharmony. And the rest of them always gave the impression that they all got on without too many problems so obviously they were all ok and it was me who was the problem. This applied more to after the abuse began, as the anger must have built up in me towards my parents for the way they were treating me. But the abuse always took place away from my sisters, (but in front of my mother), so when I started reacting to it and started being openly hostile towards my parents at times and acting unappreciative and ungrateful for all the (always material) ways in which they were 'good' to me, which were always done in front of my sisters, it must have looked to all of them as if I was an ungrateful and unappreciate child. All the good things they did were always made obvious and the abuse was always hidden. So it must have been very easy for my dad in particular to convince my sisters that it was indeed me who was the problem as they only ever saw him being 'good' to me and me being hostile towards him and seemingly ungrateful for the 'good' things he did for me. Of course they were completely unaware of the abuse which is of course the reason i was always angry at our parents, no matter how much they did for me or helped me in some practical/material way.

Whispy, my dad loves the fact that youngest sister has married into money, and in his eyes that makes her even more of the 'golden child' that she was already. I think I have probably gone up in his estimation a bit since DH got a very well paid job a few years ago. Before that he was on a ordinary wage and therefore in my dad's eyes both DH and I were inferior beings. That is one thing that bothers me the least; I know my dad is completely warped and twisted in his way of thinking, so i just ignore him in this respect.

OSAHM- Yes, yes and yes. Thankyou!

Just have to find the guts to unleash...I mean... coax out the real smithfield. Thanks again, that did help just seeing it written down in front of me like that and getting to my gut reactions.

whispy, what you said here "...and I have to be so careful how I talk to her about such things without appearing childish... " is so true. I feel this way wrt my sisters. I know if i tried to talk to them about how upset and hurt i felt that they didn't get me a wedding present whereas they got each other presents and especially after i have always been so generous with them over the years wrt birthday presents and holidays and days out etc, they would just turn around and tell me i was being materialistic, all i cared about was money, that they didn't owe me anything and i shouldn't have bought them things with the expectation of recieving things in return (which i didn't).

I have thought over and over again about trying to talk to them about all the many ways in which they have upset me but I know they will just accuse me of being petty and childish and living in the past etc etc, so in the end i just haven't bothered trying to talk to them. I will end up even more hurt and upset than before. My sisters are pleasant enough as long as i don't speak up about how i have been treated by them, the minute i say something, it's amazing how quickly they change into nasty, hostile, accusing people and blame me for their behaviour.