Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

[oneplusone]

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

Whispy I have posted on your thread, lovey.x

OSAHM THank you for your comments. ANd I am so glad you are doing well.

I have noticed something quite startling recently. It was my birthdya not so long ago.I hate my birthday. I want to feel special then I feel guilty for wanting that then I think oh no I'll do something nice (DH always wants to arrange something, and of course now there are the children) but I just loathe myself. I bought some clothes around the time of my birthday but when I put them on I just looked hideous, fat, ugly. Awful. I thought I would have to take them back. The weird thing is, now that my cards are put away and all talk of my birthday is over I have put the clothes on and actually they fit. I don't look so ugly. It is how I always felt in the presence of my family. It has just brought home to me how much my childhood has distorted my self-image.

I feel like this when I see my mother, when I speak to my mother. The truth is I always felt like this unless I was very thin. But now I am not very thin, but I am not so much in contact with my family, I feelok most of the time. It sounds too simplistic.

WSA I am so sorry you have such a battle with ecxema.

I wonder how you were treated when you felt ill. I have realised I was not allowed to be poorly- I was told I was creating, trying to get atention etc. If I said nothing and got more poorly I would be accused of deliberatly neglecting myself in oreder to generate a drama around myself.

I think you are really gaining an understanding of how your family's dynamic played out. I hope I can get there at some point.

WRT to my birthdays I can only remember one from my entire childhood, and of that I can opnly remember a special candle I chose in a shop for my cake. I have so many gaps in my memory it is hard to get a fix on what it was actually like.

What some amazing and touching posts on this thread and what some lovely MNrs you all are. I am so glad I had this thread recommended to me. Thanks Attilla.

I feel a bit better today. I should've gone over to see my Mum yesterday but just couldn't face going over. I find it hard going over there anyway because it reminds me so much of my lovely Dad - he passed away in 2005 - but Mum was so off with me yesterday on the phone that all I wanted to do was go and pick my children up from school, give them both big hugs and bring them home again. I spent the entire evening lying on the lounge floor with them both...playing. I loved it. When DH got home from work I'd done no housework, no cooking for tea and even our coats, shoes and the kids school bags were still lying in the hallway.

Whenever I have moments of upset/anger with my own family (brother/sister/Mum) I always warm to my own children....makes me realise how incredibly lucky I am to have two lovely children.

Anyway I hope everyone is ok.

Pinky...I've just read your post on here from lastnight....I know what you mean about trying on something and feel you look awful....I have moments when I look in the mirror and absolutely hate what I see - I'm going grey, I have a tired drawn looking face and I hate it that I'm not as slim as I used to be.

Wanttostartafresh...that must be horrible have eczema....both my kids had that when they were younger due to milk intolerance problems....it was a horribly miserable time for them....hopefully it won't go on forever for you.

I still feel a little bit down about yesterday but like my DH said to me last night....'if your sister doesn't want anything to do with you, me and the children then that's her loss'...and he's right.

It gets worse!......DH's Dad has just rung and had a go at me over DH's alledged failing to thank his parents for a cheque they sent to DH for his birthday....DH did text and leave a message on his Mum's mobile to say thank you - so why have a go at me?! I advised him to ring DH on his mobile because he can talk (he has handsfree) because DH is at work (being a Friday) but I guess it was easier and more damaging to ring our home number and have a go at me instead. Did DH's Dad ask how we all are? No. When did DH last talk to his parents? About 4yrs ago. I asked how he was and DH's Mum and got a very abrupt reply 'fine'. He then said goodbye and put the phone down.

I give up.

I must check what's stuck to my back in the form of a label cos I'm sure someone's put something on there that says...'come on then, come have a go at me, be horrible and nasty and piss me off cos I love it really!'

Families. Bleurrrgh.

whispy

Am glad you came over to this thread.

Your DH's dad takes the cake doesn't he?. Toxic man he is as well.

I'd seriously change your landline number so this does not happen again, at the very least have caller ID so you can screen your calls. This works well for us.

Did he speak to his son after all?. Presumably there is estrangement as well in his family seeing as he has not spoken to his parents for 4 years.

I think you are right to surmise that yes it is indeed easier and more damaging to ring your home phone number.

Families - bluerrrrrgh indeed.

Would like to wish all of you a very Happy Christmas and New Year.

It took me a while to figure out that FIL is NPD as well but he too fits the criteria along with BIL. The three of them would all make a very good case study for a clinical pysch.

Have a question for you:-

Do any of you still receive separate Christmas cards even though you've been married to their darling boy for years?. I ask this because MIL (narcissistic golden child that she is, her sister played the scapegoat role within that family unit) still does this and it really bugs me. I seem too to get a card from the selection box he gets a nicely worded and decent paper type card from his dear ol' Mum - a woman who he won't hear many bad words against (unless we are talking about her other son who at 46 is still at home and is being enabled to the nth degree by her and FIL as well).

DH has never challenged her on the cards thing, I don't think he has actually noticed well he certainly has not made any comment to her. Not all that much shocks me any more with regards to the Dysfunctional Three but this still gets me.

Attilla...DH's Dad rang from a mobile so I didn't recognise the number. Had he rung from his home line I would've ignored it. He is horrible, as is DH's Mum. I don't know whether DH has spoken to his Dad today because I've not spoken to DH but I'm sure he'll tell me when he gets home from work.

I've never got on with DH's parents...(I really must be some awful person to not get on with these families!)....he called me a 'cow' once and I've never forgiven him for that. I was also told, by phone, the day before I married DH, by his mother....'Remember, he is MY son'. I've never forgotten that either. DH and I married in a registry office. DH's Mother was drunk when she arrived and became steadily more drunk during the reception. It was an awful day! DH's parents are very immature, selfish, arrogant, rude and generally horrible people. There is lots of history with them...they've never accepted me marrying DH and probably never will!

Hey ho!

And in response to your post re the christmas cards Attilla...no, we don't get an Xmas card from DH's parents - the kids get them but we don't. He gets a birthday card with a cheque inside. I don't get a card nor present which is fine with me cos then I have nothing to say thank you for! DH always cashes his cheques and gives me the money to spend on the kids which I think is lovely.

whispy I really feel for you. You really have had a rough trot of it havent you.
You sound like such a lovely mum and a lovely person too.
I am intrigued to know why your mum enables you siblings to treat you so disrespectfully and with such blatant disregard. as much as i would like to know, I guess this is something neither you nor I ever will because toxic people such your mother have no rhyme or reason to their behaviour.
As others have said the only thing you can do now is to work through things yourself. Come to terms with the loss and grief of never having got what you deserved as a child. Hoepfully as you work your way through you will reach a point where you feel strong enough and sure enough of yourself that you will not need their approval anymore.
Its the needing them (still) to love us and approve of us that is so destructive in the end.
You sound like you have a lovely family unit. That, yourself and a network of good friends is all you need now and someday you will feel that this is true.
You deserve so much better whispy.

Atilla I dont think I have ever had seperate xmas cards from pil/mil. If I did I would be very cross about it indeed. It sounds like she cant except her 'little' boy is all grown up and in a relationship which takes precedence over hers.
Very bizarre.
I guess your dh is so used to this behaviour he doesnt see it as unusual. Could you ask him if he does not think it's a bit odd. Im guessing that its his dismissive attitude toward this that is more frustrating?

cremeeggs Thank you so much for your post. It meant a lot to me. It meant a lot to know someone thought enough about my ramblings to take the time to post and then to write in lovely reassuring way. I always feel a little shocked when people relate to what I have written about my family because I am so used to the conditioning I seem to have (still) that everything is my fault ( scapegoat reasoning).

OSAHM That bit you wrote about parents loving or caring in some way but having a warped way of showing it. I do feel this with my dad. I guess I always have. That he really 'does' love me and the kids, but he is himself damaged and so he will never be able to love me in a normal way or give me a 'normal' father daughter realtionship. And vice versa I will always be looking for far too much from him than he can ever give because firstly I have carried over my craving for my mothers love onto him, secondly I think in some ways my father brought me into the realtionship with my mother as a third party and this means the relationship between us will never be normal. It often felt that he was my only hope when I was growing up and so despaerate for a modicom of love or attention.
Beacuse of this recent contact with him I am trying to protect myself from falling back into the trap of elaborating my father's ability to be the good loving parent. I dont want to feel hurt and ripped apart by the rejection again, because my father can be brutally rejecting at times.

Thanks smithfield - I'll be ok. I always am. Its my own gut strength that gets me through these dips in life. Fortunately I am married to a brilliant and patient bloke who helps me through times like this. Plus my kids give me so much joy/laughter and they always make me smile when I feel so upset/lonely on the inside.

I have always said and even now still say it that I had a rough childhood. Not exactly neglect but very near to that. My Mum and Dad never really noticed me. I wasn't loud enough/funny enough for them. I was the quiet one of the three. The one who sat and listened rather than spoke. If ever I spoke I was shouted down or simply talked over. It became a way of life for me and as a child I just gave up. Should I speak up I would often find my brother would've trashed something of mine (my records or slit the tyre on my bike or something stupid!) and my sister would just threaten me with something or even her fist.

As sad as it is I have never seen eye to eye with my brother - and even now I absolutely despise him. When Dad died he helped himself to pretty much most of my Dad's belongings some of which I gave to Dad as presents or I made for him (I love arts/crafts and used to make Dad bits for his workshop)...they've all gone. I kicked up a stink over it and never saw any of it again. My sister did the same and I know some of Dad's stuff has now been handed to her. Me? I have nothing of my Dad's...only my memories of him which no-one could ever take from me.

Not been here for an awfully long time. Thought I was ok and starting to get on with life.
My father arrived, out of the blue on my doorstep 3 weeks ago. He stayed for a week and we battled through a few thngs. I let him back in cos Im sick and tired of not having any family, and didnt want to be lonely again this xmas.

He came back again yesterday as mother had slapped him, and stolen money that my great grandma sent to him , for my DDs.

He's asking me for help in advice on divorce, and house hunting after xmas...although after nearly 3 years of silence, now 2 visits in almost a month when he wants a bed....I am feeling a tad used.
On the good side, its been nice to catch up. On the bad side, he;s still throwing his money at me, not hugged me....

Oh I really dont know if Ive done the right thing. But one thing I do know, I will never speak to my mother, nor ever see her again. All the anger I felt about her the past few years is very much justified in my heart. I even bought her a card for xmas 'to a loving mother' it said...I scratched out the loving mother and wrote 'selfish cunt' on it. I shoud have posted it but ripped it up instead. that was therapy!!!!

Sorry to gatecrash, just random stuff going through my head as my meds are really working now. Not sleeping much but seeing things a lot more clearly.
Hope everyone is doing well and wishing you all a very happy christmas and happy new year.

All my love girls. Hope you all find comfort in your family units that you feel blessed with.

xxx

purpleone - blimey, you're having a tough time aren't you? I don't know what to say other than I would've done the same...had my Dad come to me I'd have helped him too - I know you probably feel a bit used with it all but atleast he felt he could come to you.

My eldest DD (she's almost 11) was going thru her make-up last night....my sister is into make-up and in the past has done make-overs on DD1 - DD1 loves them. DD1 asked me last night why her Aunty doesn't want anything to do with us anymore (not heard from her for 6mths)....and I didn't know what to say. So my reply was 'I don't know'. DD1, being the grown-up girl she is, just said 'oh, ok then' and dropped the subject. It's so hard dealing with family issues as an adult without having children ask and question 'why?'.

Hi Smithfield,

Re your comments:-

"Atilla I dont think I have ever had seperate xmas cards from pil/mil. If I did I would be very cross about it indeed. It sounds like she cant except her 'little' boy is all grown up and in a relationship which takes precedence over hers.
Very bizarre."

MIL only writes the cards out (she likes to be in charge of everything in the House of the Dysfunctional Three, the control freak that she is), neither of us have ever seen any of FIL's handwriting on a card of any sort. She sold the story to both her boys when they were growing up that she did everything for them and their Dad is completely useless. She still lives through her boys, now her attention is focussed on my BIL as he is still at home. But he (FIL) is not without any responsibility here. All he cares about is his own self.

I think both she and FIL are NPD.

"I guess your dh is so used to this behaviour he doesnt see it as unusual".

DH gives his own parents a separate card each, spends lots of time picking out a flowery worded card for his Mum and his Dad gets what's in the selection box. No thought goes into it at all.

She still asks DH to give her a Christmas gift list. When you've been conditioned by emotionally repressed and damaged toxic people to accept their mad behaviours as normal it becomes normal.

DH actually said once that his mum could never discuss any personal family matters in front of me i.e BIL. I did pick him up on that point!.

"Could you ask him if he does not think it's a bit odd. Im guessing that its his dismissive attitude toward this that is more frustrating?"

Its very frustrating indeed. I'm going to bite the bullet and explain as nicely as possible (won't use any swearwords!) how I feel about this particularly when the cards are given out. Even my own mother and father who can be very crap on occasions (and there have been many) does not even do this.

Anyway this ghastly lot can get their own Christmas dinner cos we'll be away for Christmas!.

Comments as always are appreciated.

Atilla - In my experience with a highly dysfunctional family and NPD, gifts and cards are a classic way to manipulate and express dysfunctional relationships. I dread all card ocassions (birthdays, xmas and Mother's Day) for this reason. Dump them on the recycling (hence not wasting trees on these nutters) or put them in an arts and crafts box for you DS to cut up and glue as he wishes

NEVER have any doubt that what they are doing is weird especially if they are NPD

Merry Christmas to you too!

Rose this is SO true. Bang on in fact. Hence my mother has written a whole message inside my dd's card. She is 20 months ffs. Says something like;

dear smithfields DD,

I love you very much and I hope I will see you some day soon.

She has not written the same message to ds .

Nutters- too right.

It is of course a very covert means of manipulation and trickery. But that is like the signiture work of NPD isnt it. This is also what maks it so crazy making. They are so determined to give a completely different face to the outside world.

Your GM is a case in point. To the outside world a kind, caring woman who took over responsibility for brining up her darling gd when her own daughter could not care for her.
In reality the whole situation was almost engineered by her. Horrible.

Attila- I think you should feel completely justified in your feelings about this. She is demoting your importance in the family in a very underhand manner. Just as she clearly did with her own dh... your partners own father.
You do well to stay away from them at christmas Attila, but stand your ground my love, you deserve better treatment and you would not be wrong to make that clear to DH.
It may be normalised for him, but you are in a different relationship and can establish your own boundaries within it.

My profound thanks both Smithfield and Rose, your replies have helped me a great deal.

I deserve better from MIL but I realise that such people do not change; their own malformed personality traits are too ingrained now. I am only glad she never herself had a girl because she would have been a carbon copy of her.

At least I realise and did long before DH really did (and I think that knowledge is still painful to him so there is denial there also) that his parents were and are inherently dysfunctional.

I can do a modicum of civility with regards to MIL so I will continue to do that. DH bless his heart does not notice!.

Her two sons (the youngest btw I am married to) have been both emotioanlly screwed up by both of them, DH less so but only because he himself had the will to get out of there as soon as he was able and became his own person.

FIL I have recently learnt is narcissistic as well but in a different way to MIL; he latches on to people (even DH says his Dad talks at them) and attends all manner of committees mainly for the adulation (he's been in the local newspaper), cache, money and popularity it brings. It presents a favourable image to the outside world, image is all important. FIL too changed his surname by deed poll as a young man after a row with his Dad (his Dad was part of a very religious organisation/cult) so dysfunction and family problems were present in his life back then.

As I have mentioned before MIL, FIL and BIL would make a good case study for a clinical pysch. However, these people will never be assessed clinically.

I have learnt over the years that the way forward here is to avoid the Dysfunctional Three as much as humanely possible. I would certainly never go around there with my DS without DH these days. Visits there are curtailed as much as possible.

A friend of mine was amazed that DH and I receive two cards; it was only when I actually showed her the two cards that she was incredulous. Even her own mad IL who she cannot abide does not do that!.

Happy Christmas to all on this thread!

Message withdrawn

BA, I love what you wrote in your last paragraph. Especially about listening to music for the first time in your life, me too! And eating better and wanting to and actually having the energy to exercise more. I have suddenly started walking everywhere, before I would always drive or take the bus, I wouldn't have dreamed of walking. In fact I dreaded leaving the house a lot of time, just wanted to curl up and be by myself most of the time.

I had another realisation today. I had thought I didn't have the feelings of self hatred and self loathing that some of you talked about on here some time ago. But today I realised I have had those sorts of thoughts and feelings going on about myself all along. I wonder if I have almost been sabotaging myself in a way. My parents seemed to hate and loathe me and I must have adopted their pov for myself. And then somehow I created something I could hate myself for (as there was no real reason for me to hate myself other than purely because my parents seemed to hate me) which was my eczema. I have realised that I do feel a huge sense of self loathing and hatred every time I look at myself and see my eczema. But today I came to the realisation that my eczema is not my fault, it is not due to me in any way, it was entirely caused by my parents, and they are the ones who are hateful and loathesome, not me. I realise I have been directing feelings inwards, onto myself, when they should have been directed towards my parents. How good it felt to realise that, I'm sure this is why i feel i have so much more energy these days, i am 'attacking' myself less and less and re-directing my feelings towards the rightful recipients of my anger and hate and repulsion.

I have also realised i have been gradually withdrawing and detaching more and more from my sisters. I thought complete detachment would be a 'once and for all' occurance but i realise now it is a more gradual process. I suppose it must have been like this wrt my parents, but that happened such a long time ago that I can't remember how I emotionally detached from my parents. I hear about things that my sisters/parents etc are doing together and before i would find it almost unbearable to think about them being together and me not being there, but recently it just doesn't seem to be bothering me as much or at all. Now i just tell myself i am far better off without the lot of them and i actually believe it in my heart and that they are just 'playing' at happy families. They are all just acting out their roles and it is not a real family, they are just all very good at giving the appearance of being a cohesive family. I know the 'love' my parents seem to have for my sisters is conditional and the love my sisters think they have for each other and our parents is not real at all. They are just all too scared to admit any of this to themselves and so continue the family drama in which none of them are actually allowed to be their real selves.

Am just thinking out loud now but I just cannot believe that all this time I just accepted my eczema as my lot in life. It was my fate to suffer whilst my sisters did not. I have just accepted that this was the way things are and it could not be any other way.

I find it has been so liberating to realise that things do not have to be this way, that i can be a whole healthy person, i don't always have to suffer. Yes, in order to reach that point it will take a lot of hard work on my part, but it is possible, and like many of you have already said, living your life to the full and achieving your potential despite your parents best efforts to drag you down constantly is definately the best revenge. I can never make them see what they did and apologise, but i can work hard to overcome their legacy and be the person i was always meant to be.

wanttostartafresh - you said 'they are just "playing" at happy families'

Exactly - they simply cannot truly be a happy family when a daughter/sibling is cut off as you are. That is not how happy families operate. They are not happy people deep down but deeply flawed and narcissistic.

I'm sorry I feel a bit like I'm butting in on your conversations here, but I don't know what else to do with all this stuff.

It seems like you guys are all so sure of yourselves. I still feel like it's actually me that is the cause of all mine.

Had a horrible row with DH today. I went to collect a parcel from my DB, and it was a box clearly labelled to 'the Minxys" with the intials of my dcs written in very bold marker pen. There was no note in the box, just 3 christmas presents. We have always given each other presents. I asked my brother what was happening, and if he didn't want to do xmas presents for the adults to just let us know. He sent back a message saying he didn't know what to get us and did we want to send him presents. I am left not knowing what to think. I suspect I have caught him out again but I really don't know.

My DH gets so angry about it all. He thinks I should either make more effort to talk to my siblings or cut them off completely. I feel under so much pressure from him. I am just pathetic. AM I just creating things in my paranoid mind? Is my poor relationship with members of my family purely my own fault? DH says he talks to his brother every week- does this mean I am to blame for the lack of communication?
Did any one else feel it was not their place to make direct contact with other members of their family? Everything in my family seems to go through my mother. If I make direct contact she gets really stroppy and does everything she can to find out exactly who said what to who or to block any plans that have been made.

Should I just abandon all ties? Or should I try to persuade at least my brother that all this crap is actually our parent's doing and not mine- or would I be wasting my breath?

Pinky you are not butting in at all and I am not sure of myself. I am currently in counselling to try and sort this through. However I am becoming sure that my parents are narcissistic and I will never change them. This ultimately leads to more certainty in the validity of my opinions.

However I still have wobbles and doubts. Are they that bad? Is it in my head? Will people think I am mean for cutting them out or limiting contact?

YOU are not paranoid or creating things. Your mother clealy has to dominate and manipulate if everything goes through her (I think I spoke to you about Triangulation).

Could you take some time out from them over Christmas? Give yourself time to read, think and heal a bit? Do you think your brother is in denial or would he listen if you opened up to him?

Wanttostartafresh - your last post sounded so much more positive. It may be that you are finally healing and getting stronger. If contact with your sisters could set you back maybe you should keep some emotional distance for a while?

Sorry Pinky have read back the first line of my last post and I am worried it sounds a little curt. Certainly not meant to! I just meant that I have all the same doubts that you do and I think we have all been manipulated to believe that we weren't abused

This is how abusers work though. They want to keep it behind closed doors so they do it in such a way that you won't tell people.

Do you think people with normal parents feel like they are going crazy or feel paranoid after a discussion with their parents?

Thanks for replying Rose. I hope you don't think me rude. I just wish I could be sure that I am not the problem. I think when I agrue with DH, and points out how little I dare communicate with my family, I think that maybe if I was not so passive things would not be so bad. As you say, maybe I should try opening up to my brother. But I went on holiday with him last year and he was just awful to me. I also had my SIL telling me how over-sensitive I was as a child (how would she know- she was not there?). My brother is such a Golden Boy you would not believe. I cannot imagine him ever risking his position in the family for my sake. It's a bit similar to wtsa has said, about her sisters perceiving her as the trouble-causer. My mother is so canny in the way she does things. My father's rejection of me is so complete.

I feel as though I am still caught up in reacting to my family, whereas you guys seem to be working through your own issues. On the face of it I am much more free of my mother on a day to day basis than I have been in a long while, but the result is that my family are just getting on with their lives without me, and I am still being blamed for everything. I feel like I have no way of getting my side of things heard. Whatever I say now would be pointless- my parents are going to be staying with my Brother fro christmas, whatever I say wil get picked over and dismissed. Or am I just being pessimistic. GAH. I think the bottom line is I just don't trust him.

x-posts Rose. No I don't think yuo were curt.

You are so right. I wouldn't even be having these thoughts if I had a remotely normal childhood, would I? I just wish I could remember things properly. All I can remember are feelings- lonliness, confusion, fear, and an over-whelming feeling of being bad. I have so little to work on.