Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

[oneplusone]

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

BeginningAnew- That is so true, what you were saying about the system being sick. I mean if we are so adept at being scapegoats then it would follow that the golden children are equally adept at their role.
So 'the smoothness' of their lives can often be a facade. It's what they want and need all of us to see in order to feel accepted - their own protective layer.
It is also true what you say about wondering 'who is next', when one of the main player exits stage left.
I was quite shocked to learn that my younger brother had left his wife and that my sister no longer works with younger DB because they'd had a blazing row and havent spoken since. Previously their working together had been a source of much pain and discomfort to me because I had felt jealous and excluded by that partnership. It was if it demonstrated how they were close (close enought o work together) so all along it really was just me who could not get along with any of them.
So you are right these families really do have a tendency to implode when you leave the scene.
Its the not caring that's the tricky bit though. I literally had to get to the point where (regarding 'all' of my family) it was no longer about them, it was about me. Not caring less wether they imploded or all they all starred in a remake of swiss family robinson.
I just cant be around them (any of them) If Im to stand a cat in hells chance of rebuilding the self esteem they stole from me in order bolster up their own damaged egos.

And btw- I dont think its just a co-incidence that I have also lost weight am excersising, eating healthily, and people comment over and over how well and happy I look.

And yes I too struggle with the bit about being robbed of all those years. I feel like I want to live life at 100 miles an hour. I have recurring dreams linked to the past, my youth and the house I spent half my childhood in. The same house that keeps the most miserable memories. In these dreams I have taken over the house and I am trapped there, penniless or I am persuing a childhood male friend who adored me but at the time I hadnt cared less because I was too busy chasing men that treated me like shit.

So, my psyche is battling with this, struggling to let go of the past, despite the fact Im becoming increasingly happier in the here and now.

Message withdrawn

BA, what you have said makes a lot of sense. I am sure you are right. I know I think I can see what younger sister's life appears to be ie perfect from my perspective, but perhaps, she like me, is adept at acting normal and happy all the time and never really showing her true emotions, at least not to me, whereas inside there may a different story altogether going on. That is most definately a possibility.

But at least she has had the 'appearance' of love from my parents, as compared to the outright dislike and hostility and verbal assaults i experienced. Surely that must make me worse off? And she also had a far more genuine love from my mother, i could always see, even as a child, the real closeness and love between my mother and both my sisters and it always hurt and upset me when they made it obvious that i was not going to be included in their little club. I never showed how i felt or told any of them so i'm sure my sisters were completely unaware as to my feelings. I would have expected my mother to have some inkling, or preferably to have not created situations in the first place that excluded me, but she always chose to go with whatever suited her rather than me. I am sure she preferred to not be around me as I think I made her feel uncomfortable and made demands of her that she could not meet and this resulted in her being annoyed and irritable with me and so it was far easier for her to ignore me, and concentrate her attentions solely on my 2 sisters. With them she definately had a bond and felt a natural love for them and so it was far easier for her to be around them as opposed to me.

The reason i am sure i know so well how my mother felt about me as compared to my 2 sisters is because that is how I often feel in relation to my 2 DC's. I find it far far easier, and far more enjoyable to be around DS and much harder to be around DD. I cannot always meet DD's demands for love as I don't always feel it towards her, I have to work very hard at our relationship and it still is nothing like my relationship with DS, with whom i had an instant deep bond and love from the second he was born, even whilst i was pregnant. Not so with DD. Yes, i have awareness and insight unlike my mother and so hopefully DD is none the wiser as to my real feelings and i work very very hard to make sure she feels none of what i felt as a child as a result of my mother's distance from me, i try and create a closeness with DD which is not naturally there.

Sorry, i have gone off at a tangent. But i honestly do think my 2 sisters were then (as children) and as a result are now as adults, far better off than me. They came much closer to achieving their true potential in terms of their education and career because they had the interest and support of my parents; whereas i did ok despite my parents' complete disinterest in my education coupled with the ongoing abuse and neglect, neither of which my sisters' experienced. Like I have also said, i have also suffered hugely and been held back in so many different ways because of my eczema, it is not an exaggeration to say that i have lost around 20 years of my life in various ways because of my eczema and I am not yet 40. My sisters have had none of these issues. That's not to say they haven't had their own problems and difficulties along the way, but i feel these were then and are now well within the realms of 'normal' problems that a child from a functional family would encounter.

For a long time, like i have already said, i simply was not able to face the truth that I was the worst off, i was the only badly treated and neglected child within our family and as a result of that my suffering and difficulties have continued into adulthood and my life has been and is far harder in many ways than both my sisters' lives will ever be. I feel ready to face up to that truth now, denying it will achieve nothing, and knowing the truth does not seem to hurt as much as i thought it would. I can accept it now. Not so long ago, i was unable to and costructed all sorts of stories to try and distort the truth and convince myself that middle sister at least is the worst off, even though i was horribly abused and she was not. It just doesn't add up does it? Of course the child who was horribly abused by her dad and totally neglected and abandoned by her mother is far worse off than her siblings who were not so abused and certainly not neglected or abandoned.

BA what you said about who you married is so true for me too. Word for word really. It bothers me sometimes, but it's certainly not my biggest issue...not right now anyway.

I felt a lot of anger today, towards my parents and specifically in relation to my eczema. I have never seperated it before as a specific problem, just lumped it in as part and parcel of the emotional problems caused by them. But recently it has been bothering me as a seperate issue in itself, but i do find it hard to articulate how i feel. I was trying to think of an analogy and i thought a 'hit and run driver' was quite a good one. My parents are like hit and run drivers who have come along, caused me severe physical pain and damage and then run off, without stopping to take responsibility for their actions, pretending they didn't do it and the damage is nothing to do with them. They ran off after repeatedly and continuously hitting me and running over me and have left me on my own trying to put myself back together, in loads of pain, struggling to cope with everyday life as the damage caused is like a disability. And on top of that they in the past expected me to come running back to them and show sympathy when they suffered some health problems. They couldn't have cared less about me all the years when i was suffering with debilitating eczema flare ups. On the one occasion i didn't hide how i felt and openly showed i was depressed about my condition they then made a half hearted attempt to seek out some treatment for me and when i was not agreeable to it as the side effects were horrendous, they just washed their hands of me and left me to it to try and help myself. It was do things their way or the highway. I can't even imagine treating either of my DC's that way should they ever need my support in the same way, I simply cannot contemplate abandoning them without any support at a time when they probably need me the most. And yet that is exactly what my parents did. Apart from the one time when i showed my distress, the rest of the time i acted normal, as if my condition didn't bother me at all, although any normal person would have known it had to be bothering me loads, but i guess i must have known subconsciously that that was what was required of me, to act normal and look happy at all times, to make no demands of my parents that they might find difficult, keep all my fears and worries tightly bottled up inside me, so as not to bother them, as that was the only 'me' they could tolerate having around. If i dared to speak up about anything, it was very obvious i would either just be ignored or be in their bad books, essentially for rocking the boat and cracking the facade of the happy, perfect, problem free family they had created.

I like the analogy of an upward spiral, i have come across that in one of my books, and it is so accurate. Re-visiting the same issues again but from a different perspective, different angle and with new and more knowledge about yourself. The eczema issue is one of those. It has cropped up many times before now, but it has not really been my main focus before now, more an additional or collateral issue to other issues which were bigger at the time than the eczema issue.

Sorry have to go, will be back soon, i want to respond to some of the recent posts.

What is this thread about?? I can't find the original message...

StartAfresh, again, so very very much of what you write, I could have written myself. I think it feels impossible to convey, a lot of the time, just how much pain one's parents can cause one. How do you get across the scope of it? The betrayal, the hurt, the abandonment, the isolation, the terror? The way the damage they do doesn't stop when you stop living under their roof, but carries on, mulitplying from within, like an ongoing timebomb - because you are primed to suffer, groomed to be a victim, conditioned to carry on where they left off, hating and blaming yourself, punishing yourself, carrying on in your role of being carrier of the family crap and doing it with commitment, zeal even, because that is what you know, that is what they have told you is your job to do - verbally or non verbally - and you still hope that one day you might actually win their love, if you keep doing as they say...

Like you, StartAfresh, I had this built into me at such a deep level that I have had health problems (including eczema!) all my life; I agree with you that it's the body's way of processing what the brain can't process, a way of dealing with the absolutely intolerable; and I also think that it's a result of the mind's conditioning. I think that if they teach us deeply and effectively enough that we do not deserve love, happiness, stability etc etc, if they teach us that we are not entitled to having our basic emotional needs met, or to being treated with respect and as human beings of equal worth among other human beings, then we take on that teaching as a truth, and it becomes our reality, even long after we have ceased to respect them and what they stand for with our conscious minds. They shape our UNconscious, and that is far more powerful as a driving force than the conscious, sadly. Anyway, tangent, but what I was saying is that I believe one of the reasons I've had so many health problems is that it was programmed into me that I had to suffer. And my (unconscious) mind, being dutiful and loyal to them and very powerful and hardworking, made damn sure that I would be always suffering, and making sure I had one health problem after another was (just one) excellent way of doing that.

Now that I am moving forward so much and seeing more and more light shining through at the end of my tunnel, I've had a resurgence in my asthma, which had been largely dormant for 20 years. I'm sure the two are connected. I have started seeing a new homeopath - had very bad experiences with not one but three in the past so has taken me a long time to trust that there could be one who could actually be helpful - and talking on the phone today she said "I don't want you to be suffering", which was a great thing for my conscious mind to hear and try to pass on to the unconscious parts still stuck in the old belief system!

I think StartAfresh that you and I have both been in and probably still are in, to some extent, a state of shock at just how badly they hurt us, how all-encompassing the scope of that damage was, and how inpermeable they are/were to our suffering. When you have people telling you they love you and care for you and are acting in your best interests, and yet they cause you suffering on this scale, they watch you suffer on this scale, and it doesn't even touch them - what the hell are you supposed to do? How are you supposed to process is? Live with it? These are the people who you are conditioned by nature and nurture to trust, believe, and accept as reliable authority figures. And they give you these mad mixed messages, which make you doubt your own sanity, which make it virtually impossible to live your life in any kind of way that makes sense. To even feel you know who you are. It has taken me years and years and years to get to a point where I now have a pretty reliable connection with my own inner voice, my real inner voice. It can still desert me under pressure, and there is still a hell of a lot of pressure in my life, but at least it is there and I have a real sense of who I am and where I come from and where I am going in my life, our life now, me and my family - and that sense just increases all the time now.
Have to go, DS awake and crying for me

He's settled now and I just wanted to add that for me, realising I was in this state of shock about it all was a big help, and that treating myself accordingly, with patience and care, has helped too. The more settled I become in my new life now, the more I accept what did happen in the past, adn the more |I accept what happened in the past, the more settled I become. Like the opposite of a vicious circle! A healthy circle. But none of it happens without a fair old bit of graft, not much anyway.

Bop, thank you so much for your post and I completely understand and agree with you. The deep rooted conditioning of feeling I am worthless or at least worth less than my sisters has been a hard slog to undo and although I have come a long way in doing that, it's all too easy to slip back into feeling inferior/defective/damaged as compared to my sisters. Although to some extent it is true, I am more damaged as compared to my sisters and I no longer feel inferior as I know the damage was caused by my parents and not my fault, but I know my parents don't think that way, they think I was born inferior/damaged/defective and that still hurts me. I know i was born perfect and intact just like every single child ever born and any damage or defects that started becoming apparent as time went by were caused entirely by my parents, beginning with the abandonment by my mother from the moment I was born. I stood no chance really of growing up undamaged and emotionally and physically healthy and without health issues, as I was not given what I needed from the first moment on. It was always a question of degree, of just how much and how extensive and severe the damage was going to be, not whether there would be damage or not.

I know this particular issue is very specific to me and not many of you will be able to relate to it but i feel i need to talk about my eczema some more.

The issue has been clouding my mind for a while now, perhaps that is why i was feeling down recently, something was being processed subconsciously. I was going round in circles, feeling so bad because of my eczema and feeling angry at certain people about it, but at the same time somehow knowing that those people were scapegoats and not really the right people for me to direct my anger towards. And yet i couldn't clearly work out who i should be angry towards and feel angry towards them. T was feeling angry at my MIL for making me feel worse about my eczema than i already felt by her insensetive and nasty remarks and comments about it. And i was feeling angry towards my sisters for failing to give any thought as to how my eczema must make me feel, how it affects my everyday life so much from the moment i wake up to the minute i go to bed. And whilst i think both my MIL and my sisters are blameworthy to some extent in the way they have treated me, of course the people to whom i should rightly feel the most anger towards are my parents. It is so obvious now, they are the sole and only reason i had such a bad flare up of eczema after having DD and also after having DS, they are also the reason i have had flare ups in the past, and why i have suffered from the condition to a greater or lesser degree for most of my life.

I don't know why i was unable to see it so clearly before, why i was blaming scapegoats and failing to work out who were the original and root cause of me having this ailment, but something seemed to click recently and i think that is why i felt angry yesterday and i knew i was angry at my parents for causing me so much physical suffering over the years and i knew i was 100% justified in being angry at them and only them. The others, MIL and sisters, have not behaved in an acceptable way either, but ultimately none of them are the ones who caused the problem in the first place.

And it follows therefore that my parents are responsible for the fact that during this flare up my eczema was so bad that i felt i had to resort to using medication which i have always refused to use in the past because i know it can caused permanent side effects, leaving your skin damaged even after the eczema itself has cleared up. And that is where i am scared that i am now, where the eczema itself has greatly subsided but i have been left with damaged skin caused by the medication i used. Although i don't know this for sure yet, i haven't been back to the doctor for a while, but i am scared to go back in case he does tell exactly what i'm scared of.

And all these years, i know my parents thought i was inferior to my sisters precisely because of my eczema, which neither of us knew at the time was caused by them in the first place. I feel angry at them both for causing the condition and also for the way they treated me during the times it had flared up whilst i was still living at home with them. My dad seemed to enjoy provoking an argument with me, he would push all my buttons and i would get angry and annoyed and wound up, just like he intended and then he would tell me not to get angry and stressed out as it would make my eczema worse. I remember i used to feel so infuriated and frustrated with him, i often felt like screaming and lashing out and if i had had a baseball bat at the time and dared to use it i think i could have quite easily gone around the house and smashed everything in it to smithereens. But of course i was never actually allowed to express my anger and so i had to keep it all bottled up and no doubt it did make my eczema worse, or perhaps my current flare up is all my past rage that i had to keep bottled up coming out now.

Smithfield, i am so happy that you are feeling so much better and that people are noticing and commenting. I feel frustrated as i feel so much better inside and even though my eczema has improved a lot and cleared up completely in many places, there are still certain areas it is still very obvious and visible, although as i have said i am not actually sure now whether the remaining places i still have it whether it is actually still the eczema or the side effects of the medication i was using previously. I think if my skin was largely clear, i would be feeling like you, so much stronger, healthier and happier. It seems like it is literally just my skin itself now that is holding me back from living life to the full and feeling truly happy and content. I feel i have resolved so many issues, certainly most of the bigger issues that bothered me for a long time, and whilst there will always be ongoing 'work' to do on myself, i feel my life now could be far more at the forefront rather than my past, if it were not for the symptoms i am still so conscious and aware of wrt my skin.

Even being able to talk about it on here is quite a big step forward for me, it has always been an issue for me and i know i have talked about it before on here, but i have never before felt able to really focus on this issue on it's own and i suppose face the fact that i have suffered so much and am still suffering purely as a result of the abuse and abandonment i experienced, and for no other reason which therefore also means it was all completely avoidable and preventable. I would never have suffered in this way if my parents had not abused me. They should be feeling so guilty and ashamed and sorry right now, for what they have put me through, but of course as always, there is no chance of them ever thinking about me, only about themselves.

Bop, just wanted to add how right you are about accepting the past, no matter how awful it really was, seems to give you a great sense of peace in the present, whereas denying and pretending to oneself about the past is actually very draining and makes one feel uneasy and uncomfortable. A great sense of relief always seems to come over me when i finally am able to see and accept a fact from the past that i was previously denying.

My grandmother said she was happy for me to call her gran again after I said I wanted to honour my biological mum by referring to her as 'mum' again. She then sent a Christmas card signed with her name only (and a voucher not even signed with her name). She is trying to get to me and I realise how emotionally abusive she can be

Is it okay that I stop calling her Mum after 26 years of doing so?

Even if it was me as a kid that wanted to call her Mum to fit in with the other kids?

rose, i think it is absolutely fine to stop calling her mum now. You were a child then and called her mum because you wanted to be the same as all your friends as all children do. You are an adult now and she is your gran. She might have a problem with you calling her gran instead of mum, but that really is her problem which she should (but I am sure will not) address for herself.

Thanks wanttostartafresh

Your parents are clearly damaged people. Is that love/bond they have with your sisters genuine? Or is it because your sisters are also narcissistic/disordered and prepared to play along with their given roles in order to feel loved/wanted?

Have your parents used a form of abuse called triangulation? Whereby they have deliberately or subconsciously lured your sisters into their abuse of you or got your sisters to do their dirty work for them? Something in you triggered your parents. By this I absolutely do not mean it is your fault, but what I mean is maybe you are the good guy. The one who could not be 'trained' for narcissistic supply or whatever. Thus you became the scapegoat. You represented something that stirred their inner, true and damaged self. To the narcissist this must be squashed at all costs least their whole fake self come crumbling down around them. In order to be right (and narcissists have to be right at all costs) your sisters must be on their side. But they are not right, none of them.

They sound like a bunch of narcissistic nutters and I am beginning to think you would be better off without the lot of them. If none of them can see how much hurt and pain you are going through, then they are not worth it. I know it hurts. Possibly your daughter triggered something in you and hence your problems bonding with her at times but you are not narcissistic as you recognise this as a problem and have worked at it. This actually means you love her deeply.

I am maybe speaking too bluntly here but you have been abused, scapegoated, gaslighted, triangulated and neglected by these hideous people. However ultimately I really believe they will be worse off because they don't have any insight. I believe any parent who treats their kid the way you have been is not capable of real love for anyone and that includes your sisters. They are just pawns in your parents life and fit in with their game plan. You know the truth and are trying to reach out for real love. I say dump the lot of them and try to live your life

Hello

Not been here for ages. I have been reading.

Roseability Triangulation is the theme of my life.Or it was.
I am now at a situation where my siblings have all but completely rejected me. I wont see either of them at Christmas and I have recently found out that my parents are going to stay with my brother over christmas. I am pleased, really. I wanted my first ever happy Christmas day/boxing day without them,(they did go to oz one year) or without me feeling beholden to them but I wish it didn't have to be, and I wish they could have at least informed me of the plans in a normal way.

Things were becoming intolerable and I had to ask my mother to give me space. The fact that I asked for it is quite aa change for me.

I think she may be moving on from me, at least overtly. She is clearly in full sabotage mode wrt any relationship I have that she can get a grip onto. My goodness the lies she is coming out with.

I want to leave her to it. But it angers me that she is getting away with maligning me in this way.

I do feel a little of the letting go of my old family, but it is so hard.

I am struggling with my negative self-talk, though I have not planned my death in a long while. And I am attempting to observe the thoughts as they appear, rather than just accepting them a a mass of 'things that are wrong with pinky'.

Okay- not sure where to start here. I ve got so much I want to say after reading all these recent posts but not sure I will be able to articulate as my emotions are running high.

I have no doubt in my mind at all that mother is narcisstic, and I dont give a damn wether anyone wants to baulk (not from this thread clearly) at my willingness to label her.
All those things you mentioned Rose applies to me too, triangulation, gaslighting etc.
The fact is neither of my parents could bare to percieve any flaws in their children.
At the same time though it was in my mothers interest to disble my sense of self and self worth. It was inher interest to do exactly this so that I wouldnt leave her and she could feed off of me for as long and as often as she needed to.
I cant forgive her and she will never admit any wrongdoing on her part. This has been made clear today (just in case I was in any doubt whatsoever). A parcel arrived with two presents one for each of my children. It was from my mother. The parcel was addressed to my children (not to me as they usually are).Each present has its own message for them and does not acknowledge me at all. Its as if I dont exist. But then I never did exist for her. not in my own right.
I suppose this makes me angry because by doing this she is 'still' coming into my home and belittling me and undermining me, just as she used to do physically before I went nc.

I know I could 'choose' not to give them the presents and I 'coul' return them to her unopened. But this is too reminiscent of my mothers control and I cant help feeling that they are my childrens presents and so they are entitled to have them.
What is clear is that she is not 'sad' or sorry to have lost contact. But she is angry and the anger is building. I can feel it.

I also know that she has begun to persue younger db who has not had contact for over two years. She has taken to ringing his mobile and trying to get him to talk to her.
She has not bothered to contact me in the same way since she rang me that time and sent me spiralling down into a pit of anxiety and pnd.
Its not that I want contact from her. But it hurts that I am so insignificant to her, which I knew anyway and yet it still hurts like an old wound that keeps getting opened up.

Rose what you wrote to starting afresh struck a chord with me because my parents set up roles for all four of us. My sister and middle DB were to be the golden children whilst me and younger db were the scapegoats, although I do feel younger db wasnt always a scapegoat as he was very funny and charming and my mum enjoyed that as long he could be those things to her.
I was nothing other than scapegoat to her. It was my role to mother her and make her feel better about herself.

I still struggle with coming to terms with all of this and that only becomes clear when I read posts like yours startingafresh and yours Bop. I think you are right that it 'is' better to feel the full extent of what they have done but I dont know that I can. The longer I spend apart the more I feel as though my mothers behaviour was intolerable and no person with a midicom of self worth would have put up with it. When I think like that I do still feel shocked by it. Almost startled.

I had a shock a couple of days ago. My father text me (first time in two years and asked me to call him) I did call him because I felt something terrible may have happened to someone in my family (such was the shock of having contact from him directly).
When I rang him he announced he was in my hometown, had presents for the children and would like to see us.
He also made it clear that he was on his way to somewhere else but had stopped off for a couple of days.

You would think I would have the courage to say 'No, sorry' That I was busy, or had other plans. That he should have given more notice etc.
No I went back into 'desperate for approval mode' and dashed out and got the man dinner and his favourite drinks, had him around and cooked for him just as though nothing had happened.
I admit a small voice within me said 'Wow he's come all this way to see me!' How sad is that .

The thing is I see now clearly what and who he is. He, (just like my brother) spends most of his time qualifying himself. This is mainly in relation to wealth and business. He talked at length about HIMself HIS plans how WELL he was doing. He had his phone on the entire time and took many phonecalls . But this is how I am programmmed, right? I'll take whatever I can get, because someone who gets nothing is just grateful for those crumbs.

I finally get the phrase 'narcisstic supply' this is what I am to all of them. Someone to show off to. For my middle db and father it's so they can flex their materialistic muscles and I will just sit there saying 'wow' that's fabulous 'Your fabulous'. For my mother and my sister it is so they can feel superior. Prettier, smarter more graceful. Younger db wants me to mother him and replace what he never had.

Old habits die hard though.

And yet I continually punish the man who does show me nothing but love, sensitivity, acceptance and constantly feel as though he isnt good enough. Or that he isnt enough in some way. . Although these feelings have subsided greatly recently, but they still exist and I am fully ashamed of having them.

I feel as though I am split into two and have the part of me who feels she does not deserve a happy ending...and so sabotage, sabotage. The other part is the part that internalised and absorbed all my mothers narcisstic manipulations and thinks it cant be a happy ending unless its' 'perfect'. Rationally I know (now) that that is just not life and the rest of us 'mere mortals' live in the real world and the real world is perfect and beautiful but not in a narcisstic sense.

Just a bit more wrt siblings. Middle db was given my fathers business by my father and this in itself is a source of pain to me.
This is because whatever power and wealth he wields in my face (and money and power are at the crux of my family's pecking order) is directly linked to how much I am disadvantaged by not being chosen as 'the favourite'. Wher I have had to work for everything I have, my brother has not. So his wealth and self importance are a reminder to me that I am not as 'loveable' or 'favourable as he is. This is also the same with my sister. I have worked since I was 16 she has not worked until she was 31 and hasnt needed to because my father has provided her with a car, phone and money as and when she needs it and a roof over her head.
Rationally I know that these things are not gifts they are gilded cages that ensure they both remain where my dad needs them and in his spere of power and influence.
Still hurts though.

Rose - I also meant to say that I looked at the link from the other thread and found it really useful. I havent read that book you mentioned but have you looked at 'trapped in the mirror'? found that really good. Just google it.
And agree with startingafresh you dont need to call her mum anymore. I understand perfectly your reasons for doing so in the first place.

Smithfield your post has impacted me greatly. You could be describing my life, in all but a few details.

I need to do school run so can't post the lengthy reply you deserve but all I can add is that you are breaking free now; they are all stuck in their comlplicated roles and narcissistic patterns and needs and can't ever truly be happy.,

You can and will be happy in time, once you are able to deal with your anger and let go of the past you....I think it's all about realising your parents never saw "you" at all and then reconnecting with the "you" that you've had to keep hidden in order to survive.

Message withdrawn

BeginningAnew I did write that in a kind of 'in joke' way- I have a feeling that a few of us here used to comfort ourselves by working out how we could make it all stop. I still get that trapped feeling from time to time but nothing like the way I used to. I have tried to kill myslef a few times and have also starved myself- partly in a bid to kill myself and partly when I was younger because I was completley unable to spend money on basic things for myself. I was so scared of getting my budget wrong I set the most ridiculous levels of spending which left me livingon very little.

Smithfield I can only say it is shocking how much of what you have just written resonates. My sister who likes to send me regular messages telling me that she wants nothing to do with me anymore also rings leaving messages asking what my children would like for Christmas -it's as if in her bonkers mind she is thinking "I don't want the children to miss out just because their mother is a waste of space'.
Bizarre.
Bizarre becuase iof the audacicty of it, and bizarre becuase why would they think our children would wish to receive a present from someone who has such a low opinion of their mother? "You are a hateful, cruel self absorbed piece of shit who knows nothing about anything..but what would your children like for Christmas?"

Also it is this selective thing. They can pick quite deliberatley who they are going to favour or approve of, mainly instigated by my mother, and thye all follow the same party line. The crazy interpretations of people's actions or words that my mother makes get repeated through the family until they become some kind of absolute truth.

The wealth thing too. Oh yes. All about flashy cars, how important people think they are, expensive foreign travel, expensive clothes, meeting dignitaries, blah blah blah. As you say, BA, I just want to live a normal life, I have never had particularly flashyy taste and I really not impressed by wealth. In fact I am a little averse to it, because money was always used as either a put down or a method of control.
It drives my family mad that I have no interest in all this money and status nonsense. The child they kept in ill fitting clothes and ridiculed at the dinner table until she could no longer eat is most likely the most well adjusted of the lot of them becuase they are all still running around in the same dysfunctional loop, ruled by this desire for approval whilst telling everyone that they are so amazing they don't need it and that 'normal rules' do not apply to them.

The presents thing is hard, isn't it. Becuase nothing is ever straight forward. It's always loaded.

I recall suggesting secret santa to my mother once, for presents for the adults in the family. SHe instantly began imaginging what wonderful big gift she might receive as result, but then said,"but your budget wouldn't be as big as the ones the rest of us have to spend a Christmas, so I think you would find it difficult".

I am sure she is a narcissist. Reading that fab link you posted, Rose, has simply made it all the more clear to me.

And BTW You call her what you like.

I have been thinking a bit more about my living on things like one slice of toast and a cuppasoup each day when I was a student. I managed much better once I had a part time job again. My parents were paying my maintenance money (the absolute minimum they could of course).

My parents and my sister have always offered things, or promised things only to change their mind for no apparrent reason. When DH and I bought our house they said they would give us a specified amount of cash as a house -warming present. We put it into our budget for the work that needed doing on the house. Only for father to change his mind one day. Not only that but he charged us for the help he gave us doing some DIY.

I wonder if I just didn't feel secure that my parents would continue to send me the maintenance money when I was a student.Maybe not conscioulsy but it could explain my anxiety- it was like I was living on starvation rations, waiting for disaster to strike.

I have been thinking about this quite a lot becuase I know that when people offer to do things for me, or get something for me/us I rarely rely upon it. I feel ungrateful and think people might see me as dismissive. But I do think I have had at least a subconscious sense that I have always been alone, that expecting to be able to rely upon someone else is unthinkable.

And yet, as with the nonexistant housewarming gift, i would fall for my parents 'offers' time and time again. My sis on a way I learned quite early to take her 'offers' with a pinch of salt. She would rarely come through. But it clearly gave her 'supply' or an ego boost or whatever to offer.

Why do they always recind these offers? I have always struggled to work this out.

I know that both my mother and my sis are terrible at giving gifts- unless they can do it in such a way as it makes them look really witty, well off etc. But they would always have to buy themselves something to make it a less bitter pill to swallow.

The house money thing was actually quite humiliating for me, because DH knew about it and I had told his parents so it was not just done to me, IYSWIM, but to DH too. And I felt guilty- as though I had been indescreet and exposed a family secret. I suppose in a way I had.

Please excuse my ramblings.

Hello

I haven't posted for so long and there have been so many posts that I don't really know what to say! I've just been doing 'busy' things with my kids and hobbies and people in my 'new' life that has nothing to do with my past and not giving the old stuff much thought at all. (Although Christmas does make you think about it and some things feel a bit difficult don't they.)

It shocks and saddens me that some people feel so unhappy because of their old families that they think about killing themselves! Don't let a bunch of losers make you think you shouldn't live! Don't let them make your life crap, you don't need them anymore!

Pinky, I think you will feel more and more 'normal' the longer you have less contact, that is the impression I get from what you have posted so far. Some people are just too horrible to stay in contact with whether they have the 'title' of "parent" etc or not and yours make you feel really shit every time you have contact it seems so they are some of those people.

Also Pinky, you mentioned your relatives bad mouthing you and trying to turn people against you, but I think 'normal', good people will be able to see that your relatives aren't 'quite right' and they won't believe them!

Other people might deserve more of a chance, eg my old family I think, as despite their failings I do get the impression they feel something positive for me, DH and the kids. They just have too many problems of their own to 'do it all right', but I do feel like just getting what I can get out of them (emotionally), especially at Christmas when I would rather feel I had some family, even if they are a bit crap, than had no family. I mean, I don't think my parents have tried to hurt us on purpose, but have just failed to do a good job because of their failings. My brother hurt me on purpose but has apologised fully and is trying his hardest to learn about himself and become a better person.

I feel a lot less angry with them all as I feel that there has been revenge/consequences to their actions/inactions. My parents have suffered by me having very minimal contact (but not cutting it completely) and by me telling them exactly what I think about everything that happened, and by my brother going to prison. My brother has suffered hugely with everything he lost when he went to prison, everything that is hard about being in prison, and the fact that it is going to be very difficult for him to get parole because of the general view of sex offenders so it is hard for him to see when his sentence will end. He will always feel hated and rejected by society. He has done all that he can to be 'good' in prison and to work on himself so that he won't reoffend but now it has come to the first time he can apply for parole he has been told it is very unlikely he will get it as despite everything good he has done, they still consider him high risk, and will still judge him mainly by the badness of his crimes whatever he does now.

It strikes me that the behaviour of lots of your parents is about trying to feel important. And also that a lot of our issues on here are about us feeling unimportant. It might be that some parents do actually love you, and could say that their behaviour is because they love you, but because they are insecure, they make you feel that you are crap because they want you to feel you need them (to remedy your 'crapness'), because they are scared of losing you. It is bad and damaging and hurtful for you, and they should use their brains and see this instead of being so caught up in trying to feel more important, but it may actually be rooted in love.

Also, I want to say that I really recognise that thing of parents wanting to give the impression, and wanting to believe (and convince themselves), that their family is perfect, and there are no problems, and they are great parents. Pointing out to them that you have problems, or the problems being obvious (eg physical manifestations like WTSAfresh's eczema) makes them angry because it shows them up as not having done a perfect job. They would rather try to shut you up as quick as possible when you say that you are not happy/something bad is happening, which then makes you feel that they don't care, and actually it would be true that they care more about preserving the family image they want than about your problems. In my parents' case this image was blown apart by my brother going to prison and there being some media coverage!

Parents (and us, as parents ourselves) need to sacrifice their self importance a bit I think, and focus on what is best for their children, and do what is best, even if they feel it makes them look a bit crap sometimes, and keep doing this, and in the end, they will have done a good job and can feel good about it, rather than just having pretended to do a good job but the children are in therapy/prison/on drugs etc. Eg, trying to think of an example, if the school said one of your kids was dyslexic but you went into denial and said "my kids have got nothing wrong with them, not one of my kids" and didn't get help for them because you didn't want everyone knowing, because you wanted to look like a perfect parent with perfect kids, your child wouldn't get the help and would suffer. But if you got the help even though it felt uncomfortable for people to know that there was something wrong with your child, because it was best for your child, then you would be doing a good job by sacrificing your feelings of self importance. (This example doesn't relate to me, it's just a simple example to try to illustrate what I'm on about.)

I ramble too much so I will stop!

Hope everyone is ok x

Hi all. I'm new to this thread although have been on MN for a few years now. Attilla suggested I come on here. Hope you don't mind. I'm having a pretty awful time atm with my family (brother & sister)....

What are they doing Whispy?

Just being pretty unreasonable - typical sibling problems....I've had a thread running today, in the relationships section entitled...'where have I gone wrong?'....Attilla very kindly posted on it for me, along with quite a few others and it was Attilla who suggested I came on here.

I've read your other thread now, and posted a comment about it on there rather than here because I can't believe some people on there don't understand how much it hurts to be made to feel excluded they way you were.

Thank you ordinarysahm - I was beginning to think it was me that was so completely in the wrong....must admit when I logged out of MN and drove over to pick the kids up from school all I could think about was how much of a failure I am daughter and sister-wise...and then I came back and read the posts that came onto my thread when I got home and saw that I had some far more understanding and sympathetic replies.

Thank you for understanding how I feel. It does help enormously. x

This thread has moved on so much since I posted last. I seem to have less time these days to post, DS is still at nursery but doing shorter hours over more days, it's quite hard to find the time often.

Rose, what you said about triangulation (I looked at that website btw, very good, will go back when time permits) is very true in my case. My dad most definately lured my sisters into perhaps not abusing me, but certainly disliking me and believing everything was always my fault. Eg. If i was having an argument with my dad, it was usually or even always because he had done something knowingly to provoke me into an argument with him, probably because i am sure he got some sort of 'kick' or 'high' by having an argument. He would generally pick on me to pick an argument with because my mother had stopped engaging with him, if he tried to pick an argument with her she would just stay silent and he wouldn't get the thrill he was looking for by having a huge row. So he would pick on me as i was old enough 11/12+ to be able to argue back, my sisters would have been too young as they would have been 4 and 7 at the time so probably would have just got scared and tearful.

So it would always, i realise now, appear to my sisters that I was always arguing with my dad and I must have looked as if i was a highly aggressive, belligerent, angry and confrontational person. My sisters would not have been at all aware of the manipulation that was going on, how my dad was using me to get his kicks. Nor did they know about the abuse that had taken place years before, which had totally destroyed my previously positive relationship with my dad and made me feel very angry and hostile towards him, although of course i wasn't allowed to show my anger and hostility. But my dad knew how to trigger me so would provoke me, i would get angry, we would have a huge row, and to my sisters it must have always looked as if it was my fault. As my dad did not behave this way towards them, even as we all got older, and so to them he was a perfectly, nice, reasonable man, and if i was constantly rowing with him, it must be my fault. And of course that is exactly what my dad wanted them to think.

He would even point out the differences in mine and my sisters' behaviour towards him, but of course he would never ever allow me to even say one word about his abuse and so my sisters would have no idea of the real reason why there was always tension between me and our parents.

BA, thank you so much for your post and your advice. Especially about trying to release my feelings in a physical way. I have recently been going for long walks, because i seem to have an energy that i feel the need to burn off. I am wondering whether the energy is the fresh anger i am feeling at my parents and my sisters about the way they caused my eczema and subsequently treated me during the times when i had a bad flare up of it. Middle sister not so long ago made it very obvious that she resented the fact that the family apparently had to 'tip toe' around me during times when i was having a flare up. Well, i certainly don't remember anybody tip toeing around me during any time of my life, they were all just as nasty whether i was having an flare up or not, but what got to me when she said that was that she was clearly resentful of this apparent tip toeing around me. We lived together at home for years and she could see for herself how bad it was for me when my eczema was very bad, how depressed it made me and how debilitating it was, and to be resentful of some tip toeing and to not have nothing but utter sympathy and compassion for somebody who was clearly suffering like i was....well it is just dawning on me what a nasty, selfish, possibly narcissistic and lacking in empathy sort of person she really it.

And the same goes for younger sister, she is so wrapped up in her 'perfect' life (with lots of money which is so important to all of them) that she only has time for me if i am willing to go along with her perfect little life in which our parents are lovely and have done no wrong and if I don't tell the truth and pretend I am fine and our parents are great. If I toe the line then she is perfectly pleasant and charming, but if i talk about 'real' things and the truth in any context, she turns nasty and hostile and clearly doesn't like me. If I mention to her any problems i might be having with a friend for eg. she immediately thinks the problems must be my fault and that i was being confrontational with the friend. She doesn't know the real me at all, all she knows is me playing the role i was put into by our parents. The trouble is she doesn't know it's just a role in our family drama, she thinks it's reality and she continues to act our her role and it makes her completely uneasy and uncomfortable when i don't conform to the role she thinks I should be playing.

Sorry for this long ramble, i just also wanted to add that I too have been seriously suicidal in the past, down to setting a date in my mind to end it all. These days i do think about it sometimes, but only in relation to my eczema as i cannot imagine having to live with this condition like this for ever. It impedes my enjoyment of life so greatly, prevents me from being myself, people react to me differently to how i know they would if i didn't have the condition because i know people find it scares them, makes them feel uncomfortable etc etc, mainly because they do not know or understand the condition. I am still hopeful that there is still a lot more improvement that can take place; if there comes a day when i feel i have no hope left of ever making at least a nearly full recovery from the condition then i really don't know what i will do. I am hopeful at the moment though, as they say, where there's hope, there's life.

Ok, have to go, sorry for rambling on so much again about myself. And i very much appreciate everyone's support and advice, it keeps me going from day to day.