Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

[oneplusone]

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

AN your thoughts on processing random bits of anger/anxiety are very good. I am going to try it out.

OPO I know I tried to attach mysekf to my sister. I know I looked for a big sister figure in female friends. In fact I looked upon both my brother and my sister as extra parental figures. It is crazy, especially since my sis is well on her way to being a narcissist herself.

But I think I understand what you are feeling.
My sis makes a big show of 'needing me', like the phonecall last week, saying how much se misses me and loves to hear my voice, and how she's going to ring me again this week. Well she hasn't and I don't expect her to. At one time, I would be disappointed, it would be yet another rejection from her, but now I feel quite indifferent

Some things I have been thinking about.

One of my early day to day memories is getting up in the morning. Trying to find someone who would help me get dressed. My parents were never interested. My sister would help me but would deliberately fix it so my clothes would be back to front and then she would leave me in them. Or I would get stuck in my clothes, either trying to get them on or off. I still have nightmares about it. I get major anxiety if I try something on and it's too tight, I panic that I will never get the thing off. It sounds really silly, writing it down.

There were lots of things I was never taught because I am lefthanded (or 'cack-handed', as I was told at home). My father said to me last year, on making one of his 'cack-handed' jokes at my expense "Do you know what that means, Pinky? It's not very nice, is it?" and then laughed.

I went to school feeling like I had some sort of disability because I am left-handed. It was just another thing they used to put me down, to make me feel that normal life was not'for me'.

AN the things you said about having your view of other people distorted by your experiences? I can relate. I think that is some of the reason I feel so bad. I have just horrible thoughts- negative thoughts about people's motives- I have to really talk myself out of them.

Sorry that was very rambly and all over the place.

The thing with my mum now leaving a happy message is really driving me mad. SHe hasn't replied to my message, either. It's all just another manipulation, isn't it? She doesn't really want to see me, and by leaving a nice message she can pretend she hasn't been behaving badly, and has no need to apologise. It's the nice-nasty thing again and I don't know which is worse.

DD1 told me she loved me veyr much last night. And I feel bad. I feel that I will let her down, that she might not feel loved enough in return. I cannot take it when people say things like this to me. It is lovley andI did feel good for a time- but then I started to feel guilty about it. Why is it that everytime I try to process something like this I end up feeling bad, not good enough, as though I have decieved the person into thinking I am worth something? Does everyone feel like that and I am just wingeing?

PM, your sister sounds nasty. Mine were the same, although it was much more my middle sister being the nasty one and youngest sister tagging along behind her. It was horrible as it was always 2 against 1, ie them two against me on my own and as i have already said, i never had my mother or my dad to stand up for me. If my mother ever showed any concern for anyone it was always for my sisters, never for me and my dad always favoured my youngest sister in everything.

I feel so angry now, at myself really, for putting so much store by my sisters all this time. I even delayed cutting ties with my parents for years because i was so worried about how my sisters would react. I was afraid they would reject me (which they did do anyway). I feel I have done a complete U-turn in relation to how I feel about them. Now I feel like I couldn't care less if I never saw them again, I am not at all scared to say what i really think to them even if it is something negative about them/their behaviour. I think that they do not deserve to have me as a sister and their opinion about me cutting ties with our parents or anything else simply does not matter to me. If they have a problem with me cutting ties with our parents it is their problem and they will have to deal with it by themselves. I am not going to justify myself to them or try and sugar coat things for them. They have no idea what i have been through, how much i have suffered because of our parents and yet they think they have the right to get on their high-horse and make judgments about me and what i have done. They are simply not worth me wasting any more of my time on and even though I feel I have been saying this for months now, I really do feel i have reached the end of the line with them.

Middle sister suggested a while ago that we should meet up this weekend, i said ok, but since then she has not got back to me to confirm she can make it. Normally i would be stewing and stressing about it, wanting to meet up with her but somehow sensing/knowing that she didn't really mean it seriously when she said we should meet up. It was just a casual throwaway comment on her part that i latched onto because of my hope that this time she might give me what i need. I have finally realised that when she suggests meeting up, it is not because she misses me, wants to see me, or because she cares about me, it is just a throwaway line to her and it is obvious that this is true as when i try and make definate plans with her to meet she never confirms anything. She leaves me hanging, waiting for her to make time for me. And this sort of thing has been going on for years, me stressing as one of my sisters has said we should meet or she will phone me, all just casual comments with no real intention behind them. I have always taken them seriously though and because i was so needy, i would be anxiously waiting at my end for a phone call or confirmation that they could meet up with me for lunch or something.

I am so angry about all this. I have been wasting so much time on them when i could have been using that time on other people who actually meant it when they said they would phone or wanted to meet up.

And i have put up with so many snidey comments, especially from middle sister about the situation with my parents. She will pretend that she accepts my decision but then will make catty comments about how she and youngest sister are so different to me. How we all suffered the same abuse from our parents but she and youngest sister are so loving and forgiving towards our parents, that essentially they are better people than I am and that i am simply an unreasonable, ungrateful, unforgiving monster for daring to cut ties with our parents. She has so little respect for me, or no respect for me really, that she cannot see that i would never have done what i have done if i had not suffered terribly because of our parents. My sisters may have occasionally been the target of my dad's anger, but what they experienced was much more within the realms of 'normal' family life. The abuse and neglect and abandonment i suffered was on a completely different scale to what my sisters went through. They clearly have absolutely no comprehension of just how different our childhood experiences were and for us to now try and have a close relationship is impossible. I can see that now whereas I couldn't before, or i refused to see it perhaps.

But now i can see that i will be able to survive without my sisters, that there are other people out there with whom i can have good relationships, i no longer feel the need to cling to them desperately, as if there was nobody else out there who would care about me. It's ironic really as i was clinging to the very people who clearly did not and do not care about me at all and yet by clinging to them i was preventing myself from seeing that there are other people who do actually care about me.

The only thing i am grateful for now is that i have realised this sooner rather than later. At least I am still only 39 and I have time enough left to meet new people and make some genuine friends.

Sorry for such a lengthy post, i just needed to get all this off my chest.

PM, i can relate to what you said about your DD, when she said she loved you. My DD seems to love me so much, she is always telling me and making me cards and hugging me and i worry that she may not feel i love her as much as she loves me. But the bigger fear is that actually i do not love her as much as she loves me. I do love her and would do anything for her, but sometimes i simply cannot feel my love for her in my heart. It seems to be an intellectual knowledge of love for her than a feeling. Whereas for DD it is clearly something she feels very strongly rather than knows intellectually, IYKWIM?

Hi there, havent had time to catch up with all the posts-Im off work at the moment and so I am bit busy . I will come back after I am up to date.

Just wanted to say thankyou quickly for your words of wisdom. Dont know what I would do without you guys, especially when I am going through points in time where it literally feels like my head is being pulled inside out.
I think it was all triggering my 'not good enough' bottom line. Those alpha mums not talking to me and me feeling anguish because I feel like it is more 'proof' that I am in fact... not good enough.
I begin to think if only I was smarter, wealthier, more attractive, had a better car ( I know its ridiculous) , but this actually becomes the content of my thoughts because feeling 'inferior' and therefore ostrasised makes me feel all those childhood feelings which as an adult I realise I will do ANYTHING to avoid.
Something significant happened today. I went to playgroup after dropping ds off at school with one of the other mums.
This particular mum I often wonder 'why' she is friendly with me and talks to me. Whats the catch? I think. She is smart, very attractive and a really nice person and everyone seems to know and like her.
At the playgroup she mentioned the Alpha mums and how 'exclusive' they act.
I cant class her the same way I would myself so there I was left with evidence or my proof to the contrary of my original thoughts.
These women dont speak to me, not because I am not good enough and anyway how would they know wether I was or wasnt good enough without speaking to me. The mum I speny time with today should certainly fit the good enough criteria.
Bottom line 'is' I cant effect others beahviour. Its just that these women choose not to interact with others and remain aloof and that is their choice and nothing to do with me.
It just shows how skewed our thinking can become through as PM said (hello pinky)
brainwashing.
oneplusone If I met you at the gates Id give you a big hug and squeeze your hand.
I know exactly what you mean about your sisters and I think this is what I did with mine. My sister was the one person (apart from my dad) who gave me scraps of comfort. I clung to her and my father beacause of that.
Its very painful isnt it.

Also I think I carry a lot of shame for not measuring up. Being a narcissist my mother 'needed' all her children to reach her expectations because we were all extension of her and her ego. I knew I fell short and also I think deep down not measuring up was my way of taking back control because she was SO controlling of me.
Many young girls do this with food. They retain control of their own bodies when they cant control what is going on outside of themselves.
I have to now try and break this childhood survival habit. I have to keep telling myself she no longer controls me and I am free to suceed if that is what I want. If I am happy as I am, that is fine too.
Re-writing the script, rewiring the brain, self soothing. Its an uphill struggle but a worthy one right?

I'm sorry for doing nothing but ranting today. But i just feel so angry and I don't know if it's just because DS woke me up about 10 times last night.

I feel angry with DH. He seems to ignore me most of the time eg last night i was trying to talk to him, about nothing much really, but he just ignored me and carried on watching tv. This morning, after said sleepless night, he makes it clear he wants to have sex. I am most definately not up for it as i feel so crap. So he goes off to work in a huff and no doubt he will be in a mood when he gets home tonight. I am fed up. Again, i have done nothing wrong, and i am being treated like rubbish. He will blame me saying we haven't had sex for ages and therefore i should jump to it whenever he wants it. And i am ashamed to say, i have been 'jumping to it' mostly, for most of our marriage. Because i am scared of the consequences if i don't. Not in the sense that he will get violent or anything, but just his passive aggressive sulks, moods etc. And if for eg we have something planned with the kids at the weekend that i am keen to do purely because i know the kids will enjoy not, not because it is something I want to do, he will have no hesitation is using emotional blackmail on me by saying we will not be doing such and such unless we have sex first.

I am so fed up with being treated like rubbish by EVERYONE around me. Parents, PIL, sisters, certain 'friends', DH. I know it all comes down to bad choices by me in the first place because i was so desperate and needy and sheer bad luck in the case of being born to my parents, and also my inability to set boundaries in all my relationships again because i was so needy and desperate for any crumbs of attention and affection from anybody that i was willing to take a ton of sh*t in order to receive one crumb of affection.

But I am in such a different place now, I am no longer willing to tolerate being treated without consideration and respect. But i feel DH continues to treat me badly despite the whole episode involving his mother. I feel I am 'fire fighting' all the time. No sooner have i dealt with one toxic person then another one pops up and i have to deal with it al over again.

I am trying to set boundaries with DH, but maybe because of his upbringing at the hands of his toxic mother it will be impossible to set boundaries as he will just ignore them. Then my next step surely has to be to end our relationship. But we have 2 young DC's who would be absolutely devastated if we split up and i simply refuse to do that to them.

What is annoying about the current situation is that it is not new, we have been here before and we have talked about it calmly and DH has accepted that I am not here to jump when he clicks his fingers. But i'm sure all that has gone out of the window and he will come home in a mood. I am so sick of this whole routine with him. I want him to change but of course people don't change do they?

smithfield, thank you! I would be the one with my head down avoiding eye contact with anyone.

And I know what you mean about if somebody 'nice' wants to be friends, I start wondering why, what is their ulterior motive/hidden agenda.

I have come to the realisation that I am in an abusive relationship with DH. It is mostly emotional abuse and is very subtle, hard for me to detect and describe but it is definately abusive. I think reading another thread where another poster talked about her DH who she was so nice and lovely most of the time apart from certain occasions when he was verbally threatening/aggressive/abusive towards her. This is just like my DH. Most of the time he is lovely, nice, kind, generous, helps out at home, plays with the DC's etc. But, there have been times when he has been extremely aggressive, both verbally and physically although he has never been violent as such. He sometimes speaks to me with complete disrespect and says the nastiest things to me. Of course this is all mainly if not always during an argument. But still, it's not the way i want to be treated.

I accept things have been very difficult for him at times, due to me and my issues/health problems etc etc etc. So he has most definately been pushed to his limits. But does this justify his behaviour towards me?

I also worry about his lack of empathy with the DC's. If DS is crying and wants his daddy, DH seems impervious to DS's cries. They do not seem to tug at his heart strings like they do to mine. I am worried this is because as a child, DH's mother was unsympathetic to his cries and treated him harshly and coldly. Perhaps she ignored him if she had to get on and cook the dinner or tidy up/clean the house. I will never know as DH probably has no memories of this time, but I strongly suspect that whilst his mother would have attended to DH's needs in some ways, I am sure she was very unsympathetic if he needed a cuddle/warmth/reassurance as a baby/young child. Because that is how DH is with DS in particular. He seems unmoved by the fact that DS is desperate for a cuddle from him when he gets home from work as DS misses him so much during the day. He can quite calmly do what he wants to do and make DS wait for a cuddle. It upsets me so much as i always put the DC's first in that way, the housework etc always comes second if they need a cuddle/are upset etc.

I have always thought DH lacked empathy. He is actually the opposite of the sort of person i always imagined. He seems to appear quite nice and reasonable on the outside but is quite hard and harsh inside (just like his mother). I always imagined i would be with somebody who seemed 'tough' on the outside but inside was a bit of a 'softy'. How did I end up with DH?

It is actually a big relief for me to admit, more to myself than anyone else that DH has been abusing me. Again the shame and guilt seems to quick in and i feel ashamed at what i have put up with from him. But admitting and seeing the truth and reality is I hope the first step in changing things.

AN, he doesn't threaten as such. But if say i don't have sex when he wants on a particular day he will sulk, give me the silent treatment and yes, refuse to do what we had planned. Then i know the only way to stop the kids from being disappointed and missing out is by giving in to DH's demands. That is emotional blackmail isn't it? DH knows the DC's are my weakness, I will do anything for them basically and he will use this to get what he wants from me.

The thing is I am not constantly saying no to him, but sometimes i just don't feel like it/am tired/pmt'd etc etc and he just cannot seem to take no for an answer. He seems to construct a 'timetable' in his head that involves sex at a certain time, to suit him, and if i don't agree to slot into his schedule when he wants me to, he gets into a strop. And uses blackmail/guilt trips on me to get what he wants. And for years i gave in to him because i simply did not have the confidence to say no and stick to it. I was too scared of his strops/moods to say no.

Recently i have been saying no a lot more and he simply cannot handle it. The meek and mild OPO that he married, subconsciously knowing he could dominate and control me and that i would not be able to assert myself or stand up for my needs, has slowly been disappearing. And in her place there is the real me, who is able to stand up for herself and who will not accept being treated badly. I don't think DH ever wanted an assertive/confident wife, i think he always wanted a scared/submissive wife with whom he could always get his own way. And i was exactly that sort of wife until i started to heal from my past and recover my self esteem and self confidence and began to have the ability to stand up for myself.

AN, I really appreciate what you are saying about you feeling similar things about your DH at one point. And I am not going to do anything drastic or impulsive at this stage, but I cannot tolerate the way DH treats me sometimes and i need to work out how to stop it. I need to put some boundaries in place I suppose. I have no idea how, of course i was not given a good example to follow by my parents. A lot of the time i don't say anything to him because i don't want to argue in front of the children and then later on it just gets forgotten so he gets away with lots of things.

I need to know how to handle it when he says something nasty in front of the children. I usually keep quiet to stop it escalating into a huge row but i realise now it is also very bad for the DC's to see DH behaving badly towards me and me not saying anything. They will think that sort of behaviour is ok. Ideally i need to wait til the DC's are not around, then tell DH his behaviour is unacceptable and then make him apologise in front of the DC's, more for the DC's benefit than mine so they see that DH's behaviour was wrong and he is apologising for it. Whether that would ever work in practise i don't know. And of course if he is in a strop because i said no to sex then i don't really want to be discussing that in front of the DC's.

But at least i have much more awareness about DH's behaviour and can be a bit detached from it and see it for what it is. I haven't been able to do that til now which is why i haven't really been able to see that it is in fact emotional abuse. Lots of put downs, criticism, character assasinations, in fact just what my dad used to do to me. It is well known that lots of abused children end up in abusive adult relationships, it seems that i am not an exception to that 'rule' as i used to think.

Sorry more ranting, feel free to ignore.

Things are going from bad to worse with DH. Another argument this morning. I had a new dress on to go to a party. He knows I am very insecure about the way i look and lack confidence. I asked him how i looked and he said 'Fine, but you would look much better if you wore something else'. This was literally as we were about to walk out the door. I would have kept quite in the past but this time i made it obvious i was really p*d off about his comment, especially as when i first bought the dress and put it on to show him he said it looked really nice.

He basically made me completely paranoid about how i looked just before i left for the party and i am sooooooo annoyed and upset with him. He thought i should have worn something that I hated and felt horrible and uncomfortable in just because he preferred it. He seems to think i should dress to please him and not myself. He is a male chauvenistic pig and yet he thinks of himself as easy going and reasonable. He is reasonable as long as he is getting his own way in everything, whenever i disagree on something he becomes very unreasonable.

I am just so fed up with him. He thinks women wear high heels for the benefit of men, not because they feel good in them. I told him i have no intention of wearing something i dislike just to please him.

I am really married to somebody who belongs to another generation like the 50's. And i know exsctly where he gets his ideas from, his bl**dy parents. I feel like i need to get him away from them so he can see things a bit more clearly. I just don't know what to do. We seem to be arguing constantly and neither of us will give in.

AN, re your last para of your last post. You are absolutely right. The more I am cured and heal from my past the more i can see that i have accepted behaviour from everyone around me that is in fact an unacceptable way to treat me or anybody really. But now that i am starting to try and establish boundaries in these relationships of what sort of behaviour i will and will not allow, the other person in the relationship whether it's DH or my sisters seem completely unable to cope with it. They are doing their best to make me stay in my previous 'doormat' role so they can continue to wipe their feet on me and use me as their dustbin. Now i am saying no to that sort of treatment it is causing problems in these relationships.

But i am certainly never going to go back to my old role. Has anyone else had a similar experience? Do people eventually come to realise they will have to change the way they treat you once they realise you are no longer willing to accept being treated badly/cruelly/thoughtlessly? Or do these relationships continue to be full of friction and clashes until there is no option but to end them?

At least with any new relationships i enter into from this point onwards i will be setting boundaries from the start. And i am sure i am giving off a different 'aura' or 'vibe' to that which i must have given off previously as i have noticed that i am attracting different sorts of friends recently.

I have been watching this thread for a bit and decided to join under a new name, as I think I could benefit from some of the discussions going on here.

As an intro, my main issues revolve around my mum fundamentally disliking me, her being ashamed about this and trying to paper it over with very saccharine declarations & gestures peppered with horrible outbursts and behaviour. This finally came home to me after I became a Mum some years ago when I suffered major PND and began to seek therapy and medical help (against the advice of Mum who has always been suspicious of any intervention). I realised that I had absolutely no idea how to parent this baby in the loving way that I wanted to. This went way beyond not knowing how to do practical things like nappy changing etc - I'm talking things like believing the baby disliked me just days old. It felt like learning to drive using only a manual, without ever having been shown what to do by a driver (hence my username for this thread).

Thanks to a lot of hard work from me I am able to name my feelings and trust them finally. We had a big bust-up a few years ago during which Mum's true feelings towards me came out and I came very close to finally putting her out of my life completely. She was devastated afterwards and pleaded with me regularly to forget it, with drunken sobbing and pulling at my clothes on bended knee, etc. I have a lot of pity for Mum but also have to recognise that it is no longer my role to reassure her about her parenting by co-operating in the pretence of happy family. The best I can do is to forgive and try to move forwards. I can offer her respectful and in touch, but nothing more.

I won't be posting too many details about myself or family as Mum has a history of trying to gain closeness not by talking to me, but by invading my privacy. She regularly read my diary as a teenager, went through drawers and bags, walked in on me at intimate moments (e.g. trying to use tampons), listened in to phone calls. Every time she visits my house I can't leave her alone as she's straight into the paperwork and medicine cabinet checking things out. This has extended to the internet, so I have to be really careful. Sorry if I sometimes hold back a bit or appear vague - this is why.

I tried posting a couple of things with more detail in "AIBU?" once, but people are largely incredulous that any family could be that thick-skinned or insensitive, and that I must be over-reacting. That if a family was REALLY that bad, then you shold really ditch them (because it is that easy, right?) Well, I think many of you here will understand that actually yes, families can be that crap and it can be that deep-rooted and at times unsolvable. I was grateful though for the honest responses. A favourite tactic in the family is to be cruel, to tease, isolate, undermine, misrepresent and belittle in a million tiny ways, none of which can actually be held up as outright cruelty, and then when the "victim" challenges this, to call that person paranoid, oversensitive, or silly. There was some physical violence in my childhood, but what hurt more was what I once heard described as "abused by an eyebrow" - the sneering and sniggering at me, the not believing me when I was hurt, hungry or ill, the constant suspicion and thinking the worst of my motives (particularly with regard to younger siblings, who had a not perfect but slightly easier ride through childhood than me). I was in fact a model child, teenager and young adult, never in trouble, never saying the wrong thing, never so much as asking for anything material or emotional that I needed - in fact going very far out of my way not to be any trouble - which I now recognise as being deeply unhealthy. All my life I have had the deep knowledge that my Mum has not been able to cope with me, and I am now at a point where I realise that this came from her, and not from me. When my own children throw a temper tantrum, or say something outrageous, a part of me thinks "Great! They're not afraid of behaving badly in front of me - I am a safe person to show more difficult feelings to."

So - I hope to come here to vent vaguely, and maybe offer support to others, too. I am very interested in how cycles of cruelty pass through generations, how they can perpetuate themselves and what can be done to break such patterns. More than anything I want to be a good, honest and loving parent to my children, although it can be hard when you have little idea of what that looks like.

oneplusone and Pinkyminxy It's so reassuring to hear others talking about the way a child's strong expression of love can sometimes make you feel anxious & that you can't possibly live up to it.

When I was receiving psychotherapy (had a year of it - could only very just afford it but turned out to be the best investment of my life) we did some work on my worries about loving my children. After a long time I realised that I saw my ability to love as being basically broken or malfunctioning. We worked on things that would heal or fix that. I realised that "I love you" was often used in my family to mean "Shut up now" or "I'm not a bad person." Also that I was encouraged to say it often to soothe others, without having a chance to really feel and express love myself.
When the words "I love you" have been so laden with other meanings, it is hard not to attach those meanings to them, but I learned to watch my reactions when someone said "I love you" and realise that all these other thoughts would come rearing up uninvited.

AN, I had to reply to your post Thu 25-Jun-09 11:44. This was really good advice that is totally applicable to me. I have never cheated on my husband but I cheated on every other boyfriend, looking for the "fix" that comes with that first physical attraction. I suppose I used drink too to self-medicate against the feelings of emptiness and loneliness. Now I haven't been able to binge drink for about 4 years because I've been constantly pregnant or breastfeeding. I think this searching is what drove me to write. So I think, yes, we need to search for something that can fill the emptiness, but be aware that it is never going to be properly filled. lots of people, poets (and many philosophers) talk about this void, this emptiness but I think that it basically stems from not having our basic childhood needs met, ranging from being left to cry as a baby through to downright emotional, physical or sexual abuse. The Continuum Concept by Jean Liedloff explains this in detail. I think Jean Liedloff was the first person (in the 70s) to suggest this connection. (I am not too impressed with Alfie Kohnn because all of his ideas come directly from suggestions in the continuum concept.)

OPO, I think your realization of your DH is a testament as to how far you've come through all of this. As I said before, now that I've made my peace with how my mother really is, things have been cropping up in my psyche regarding my father. I always needed to believe he was a good guy (too painful to admit there was noone)but now I see him for what he really is I have severely limited contact with him( I couldn't bear to call him regarding the birth of my son. It wasn't a spite thing at all on my part- just the thought of hearing his voice made me feel almost sick. ) He's highly manipulative, a victim, was aggressively violent when I was a child and I have been his councellor for the past 20 odd years. He was only the good guy in comparison to my mother I called his mother and told her and know she'll pass the message onto him.

As with you, I met my DH when I was in a very bad place, very needy and wanting any crumbs that anyone would throw at me. This is how I ended up having a phsycho MIL and like you I feel I am being attacked from all directions. Luckily I've got the MIL more or less under control but I have to be very vigilant as I know that if I give an inch, she will take a mile. And I just don't want to have to be hyper-vigilant like this because I am surrounded by people who would rather hurt me than see me happy. But I've accepted that this is how it is for now and I am dealing with it the best way I can.

I think about divorcing DH almost every day. I can't because of the kids but I've accepted that it is not the wonderful love I thought it was when I married him, and that he is not the calm, lovely person I thought he was.
Rather than fight a losing battle i.e fight to get my voice heard in the relationship and then be labelled as moody or mad, I just don't bother anymore but instead I think "roll on the divorce". And yet...today he has been really lovely. THey say that narcissists have a cycle of entrapment and abuse, so they will become lovely again if they sense their "prey" is detatching. I see this behaviour in my DH. Or maybe I am just totally paranoid and I need him to give me more than he is able to because of my need for that strong original attatchment with my parents.

Driversmanual,
I just wanted to reply. I truly believe that simply recognising how your mother really is/was is a huge part of the battle.Many people never ever make that admission. I personally thought my childhood was fine untill I reached my twenties and then realised that, no, it was highly abusive! Its great that you are already breaking the cycle with your children. Keep posting

Driversmanual I can relate to much of what you say- Hearing my SIL tell me with some authority that I always was the over-sensitive one, even though she didn't meet my B til they were postgrad was an alarm bell for me. I knew that I had been 'discussed' and that she was taken in by the well-worn phrases of my childhood. How much unkindness is excused away by staing that the victim is 'over-sensitive'.

Funnliy enough, though, I remember a conversation with her mother, when I stayed with her once whilst on a training course. Some of the things she said, as I look back on them now, suggest that she may have got the measure of my parents. I think it is possible that people on the outside do see it, if they have enough insight.

Sakura it pains me when I hear how unhappily married both you andd OPO are. I hope you will be able to find a way to having the happy life you deserve.

I do not know about DH. I don't know if he is just normal occaisional grumpy man who has small children or if he's actually a bit horrid. He tells me all the time how wonderful he thinks I am, but I find him a bit overbearing sometimes. I hope that he is a good man, I really do. We both really did fall for each other across a crowded room. We have had some big problems over the years- but I really do think a lot of it has been to do with interference from both sets of parents, my sister and obviously issues that were buried. We had phases of very heavy drinking, too, which were truly low points. But at the end of the day I think we are good friends. I really don't know.

I only logged on thinking I would have a quick read of the latest posts but OMG, everything everybody has said since I last posted has hit me right between the eyes. I can't not respond.

DM, your childhood experience sounds so very much like mine, your mother exactly like mine. I too was a 'model' child, never in trouble, head always in a book, never made any demands for anything, never moaned, whined, complained about anything. Just accepted whatever was handed out to me, good or bad. I put up and shut up and i too realise now just how unhealthy that behaviour was. And what you say about your children being able to have tantrums and feel 'safe' to do so with you, I totally agree and thank you for pointing this out to us, You make such an important point, so simple but so easy to overlook.

Sakura, we are living the same life in different countries, with the same DH's and MIL's. Like you said whilst you were dealing with your mother you needed to believe your dad was ok. And I agree that i am only able to admit to myself now the problems with DH because i have dealt with most of my other problems ie I needed to feel DH was ok whilst i was fighting my parents, PIL, sisters. (Although fighting my sisters is still ongoing, will post about that when i have more time).

Sakura, THANK YOU, so much for posting this: "THey say that narcissists have a cycle of entrapment and abuse, so they will become lovely again if they sense their "prey" is detatching. I see this behaviour in my DH. Or maybe I am just totally paranoid and I need him to give me more than he is able to because of my need for that strong original attatchment with my parents." You have so perfectly articulated and made sense of the jumbled thoughts going round in my head, that is exactly what i have been thinking, but in a fuzzy, unclear sort of way. But you have put it exactly as i would have if i had been able to make sense of my thoughts and feelings.

I have noticed this pattern so clearly with DH, he can be completely nasty, and when he senses that i am just walking away, he will suddenly turn around and be lovely, as if there was absolutely nothing wrong. I fell for it everytime, and forgot about whatever issue we had been arguing about. I think the child in me has such a craving for love, that even if one minute DH is being really nasty, as soon as he becomes nice again, the child latches onto that and holds onto to it as she so desperately needs it to survive. And the fact that you used the term narcissist.....you were not to know that not long ago DH and I had a discussion about his mother where he admitted that he thought she was a narcissist. He said that abot her without it ever crossing his mind that he was probably also a narcissist as a direct result of his mother being one....it's the cycle of abuse being passed down from generation to generation. Which leads me to....

.....DM, have you read any of Alice Miller's books? If not I think you would find them hugely enlightening, especially as you are keen to learn about the dynamics of how abuse gets passed on from generation to generation.

I have to go now. I think I am going to be up most of the night (again) as there is so much food for thought here, my brain will be at full throttle thinking about everything you all have said.

The thing I love most about this thread is all our different styles and ways of expressing similar things, when i read what other people have written and it so perfectly describes how i feel, it is such a brilliant feeling.

Sakura, OPO- Could this be what my mother and sister are doing, with their 'nice' phone calls? I have a sinking feeeling that this is the situation.

PM, without going back and re-reading all your posts about your mother and sister I couldn't say for sure, but if your instinct is telling you this is what they are doing with their 'nice' phonecalls, I would put 100% trust into what your gut instinct/feeling is telling you. It is an awful thing for you to have to realise, but on the other hand, if you know what 'game' they are playing, you can make sure you do not continue to fall into their 'traps'. You will be one step ahead of them and they will lose their power over you, their power to hurt/manipulate/upset you.

PM, without going back and re-reading all your posts about your mother and sister I couldn't say for sure, but if your instinct is telling you this is what they are doing with their 'nice' phonecalls, I would put 100% trust into what your gut instinct/feeling is telling you. It is an awful thing for you to have to realise, but on the other hand, if you know what 'game' they are playing, you can make sure you do not continue to fall into their 'traps'. You will be one step ahead of them and they will lose their power over you, their power to hurt/manipulate/upset you.