Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

[oneplusone]

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

Congratulations Sakura! Wonderful news. And I'm very glad to hear your MIL seems to have backed down. Not changed as you rightly realise, but once you stood up to her and stood up for yourself, she must have realised she could no longer target you. Well done on both counts!

Just a quick note to Bop, thank you for your description of that feeling of something just hovering below the surface and making you feel disconnected from everyone around you. That is exactly how I feel at times, and until it becomes clear what I am upset about I seem to exist in a 'fog', by myself. It's not very nice but I have learnt to recognise now when it happens and so I know the 'routine' as it were. I have also realised that there is no point in trying to hurry the process along and trying to almost force myself to work out what is upsetting me and feel the associated emotions. It is always the case that some external incident 'triggers' the hovering feelings and releases them. I have also managed for the first time ever, to stop myself exploding at the wrong people ie DH, as recently I realised i was harbouring a lot of anger towards my youngest sister, and I nearly took it out on DH, but somehow managed to have enough awareness 'in the moment' to realise that i was angry at my sister and i used my angry energy to write out how i felt about her (not on MN but in an email to a supportive friend who knows all about my situation).

AN, your story about what happened to you in the playground is so familiar to me. Only I don't actually remember anybody ever noticing i was upset (perhaps i never showed it, always pretended i was 'ok' all the time) and saying some comforting words to me. I think i have been craving soothing and comforting and reassuring words for so long that whenever anybody says the slightest kind thing to me now i burst into tears.

I am also not sure about self soothing. How to do it? What is it? I have no idea. But perhaps it just means you are not yet ready to let go of your therapist yet? I see mine now only itermittently, so not regularly, but only if i feel i am going through something i cannot handle alone. So i know she is there if i need her, and i go to her if i need her, but not really otherwise. Could you make a similar arrangement with your therapist? ie you do not go regularly, but he is there for you to turn to if you need him at any given point? I didn't really discuss this arrangement with my therapist, but it just seems to have worked out this way and it seems to work. I suppose she is acting 'in loco parentis' in a way, ie i call her and go to see her when i need help/support/guidance. Although of course with a real mother i would be calling and seeing her at other times as well, not just when i was in crisis. My therapist is also happy for me to call her in between sessions if i need urgent support. Would your therapist be ok with this sort of thing perhaps?

Just a few thoughts, i know it may not work like that for you, but perhaps my 'arrangement' may be something you (and your therapist) could consider?

hello again ladies.

Like most of you my mother is the problem, my father is the weak man who "allowed" it to happen - by lack of intervention - although I do not believe he is inherently bad and he has supported me over the years wheras I have NO contact with her.

On Monday I found out I'm expecting my first baby. I told my dad this morning (by SMS) the news... his response? "That's a big responsibility for you. I'm off to work"

Now, I know we can't change our families but ... sigh I know none of you can change the outcome, I just wanted to vent to people who would get where I'm coming from.

skihorse Totally empathise, feel free to vent. When I told my dad I was pg the second time he said '...Oh no..' .
I guess we can try and re-program ourselves to not expect anything from them. I do wonder how that translates subconciously though. I dont want to feel I shouldnt expect too much of people generally.
Just wanted to say I know how painful it is.

I know my dad cannot articulate any feelings without dubious quantities of alcohol - so perhaps I was asking a little much at 7:30am! However, I'm 35 - he's made me feel like a daft 15 year old.

Arrrrrrgh.

I am struggling at the moment. I feel my confidence seeping away. I know it is because I am off work currently and ds has begun pre-school 5 mornings a week at the school he will attend in september.
I feel awkward, and an outsider amongst the other mums.
I also watch ds and see he is like me, as I was as a child. He is shy and seems a bit withdrawn around the other children. he is really sensitive and was crying this morning because he found a freckle on his shoulder. He hates freckles.
He always hesitates to go in and join in with the other children.
But then he has only just started mornings and perhaps I am being over anxious.
I know I project onto him the feelings of anxiety I have about being an outsider and fear of rejection.
I know some of this is probably normal and many mums feel like this when they first enter the arena of school but as a mother..all the old shit comes up because I was not in the 'in-croud'. I was bullied badly at school and I felt lonely and isolated a lot of the time.
I also know in a way that now I am an adult I am perpetuating things, as I wont approach the circle of in-mummy's (alpha mums). I keep my distance and although I try saying to myself... 'what if they are actually nice and I am remaining aloof because I want to avoid rejection?'. 'Why not just fo over and say hello?'
The problem is I can become so 'physically' affected by anxiety when I am at the school gates that I am like another person. I am like the smithfield of old, who would rather cross the street if they saw someone they knew or that would sit in a group of people and become completely frozen and n ot be able to speak. It is like a phobia.

I am so nervous, my mind hits a blank and so I dont know what to say and struggle to carry a conversation. Its like my confidence has crashed and burnt.

I just want to be a good role model for ds, and dh says that he is too young to notice, but I dont agree. I might not have 'noticed' my mother was socially withdrawn but I knew she was, if that makes sense.

Skihorse I know because he has tapped in to the hurt of a 15 year old girl. Its ok to feel like that...dont dismiss those feelings or tell yourself off for having them. Its important to validate yourself that way instead of through him.
Congratulations by the way...That really is wonderful news!

congratulations, skihorse. I don't know if you read my post about my fathers comments upon my solo show, but I can wholly sympathise. Your feelings are not wrong- it is him. They really have the nack for sayingthe most hurtful things. Don't know about yours, but my father is always quite smug about it.

Smithfield you ok lovey? School run is very much like a party, I think. Very daunting. Some days I do well, others I am the frozen wallflower, as you say. Some days I am lucky and DS just wants to peddle straight home.

back later.

skihorse, congratulations! And, like the others, I can relate to your dad's response to your news. In my case it was my mother, no response from her whatsoever, no happiness, no excitement, no joy....just....nothing. It's the story of my life.

smithfield, I can totally relate to how you are feeling. That feeling of your mind freezing, can't think of a single thing to say, just wanting to cross the street and get away from all the people. I have been there and done that so many times. I think at those times, (because it's not always i feel like that, sometimes I'm ok about not talking to other mums, just collecting DD and going home,) I have gone into 'child mode' ie feeling lost and alone and scared and wanting a grown up there to hold my hand and make me feel safe and not alone. Only I never had that as a child and of course it would not happen as an adult.

I would say give it lots of time, you (your inner child) are in a scary new environment with lots of scary new people and you need to give yourself (and your inner child) time to feel safe and secure in your new surroundings. Once you feel safe, your confidence will return, your anxiety will fade away and you will be able to talk/chat to the other mums as you wish.

And ignore the loud alpha mums, they are usually not the most pleasant 'friends' to have anyway, it is usually the quieter ones that I have found to be nicer and more on my wavelength.

Well my mother has finally rung. I was out so she has left a message. It is of the happy nicey nicey nothing is the matter variety. She wasn't in/answering when I rang back so just told her we were all fine and hoped she was ok, in a lighthearted kind of way. DH was laughing at me, that my message in reply was so short. I just don't want to tell her things about my life, so she can put me down, twist things, bitch about me to my relatives.

I feel shattered now.

She is all for show, isn't she? Trying the 'I'm lovley really' approach. I don't know which I hate more.

I have been really struggling. One of my neighbours really triggers me. Sh'e quite popular and cliquey. SHe can be really lovely one day they sort of dismissive the next. People who are inconsistent like that really set me off. I wish it didn't bother me. It makes me feel like a fool or worse some sort of toxic thinking person. I know like you all say I am just being triggered but I feel like running away and hiding but I can't.

I worry that my children will not be accepted by these people's children because their mothers do not think I am good enough for them. I don't know if any of this is true.

I also fear gossip. I think people are hot and cold with me because I have been gossipped about. I knwo it all stems from hearing the way my mother talks about people, from a very early age I would hear the way she pulled people apart with her 'critiques'.

I am soo tired of it all. I don't think I will ever be 'normal'. I don't think I am the sort of person people should have as a friend. I am too paranoid, messed-up, negative thinking. I feel like a blight on people's lives. Especially my children. Why do I feel so bad, so wrong? There be some grounds to it. Therapist says it is like brainwashing- I have been told these things over and over again until I will believe that red is green or whatever, even if my logic tells me this is wrong. But I still feel like I am bad.

Thank you everyone. My dad obviously sat on the news all day and he works away from home during the week so must've phoned my mum when he got back to the hotel because I got a text and email from here giddy with excitement. I've not replied - I'm not ready for that - thank the lord I live abroad!

So now I've had a reaction from both of them. Neither have mentioned my partner or even if I have a partner. (They've never met him obviously.)

skihorse, it is great that you are in a different country from your parents, i do think physical distance makes a difference in how you are able to deal this stuff. I know for myself, living at least an hour's drive from my parents means i know i will never just bump into them and that makes me feel 'safe' where I am.

My parents seem to have stopped contact altogether ie they have given up. Not that they did much anyway to try and resolve our differences. Just goes to show how little i meant to them in the first place. They still have my 2 sisters and they are both starting their own families so my parents will also have the grandchildren they seem to think they are entitled to.

I have made some big realisations wrt my sisters. I realise that at some point in the past, i had formed an attachment to both of them, as a result of both of them, at different times and in different ways, showing in some small way that they genuinely cared about me. I was so starved of attention and affection that when my sisters gave me some attention and affection, i (or my inner child) formed an attachment to them, hoping that they would give me more attention and affection. I was so starved of these things from my parents that anyone that showed me the tiniest bit of affection would in my eyes become the attachment figure i was so lacking.

Of course this attachment was completely unhealthy and unrealistic as neither of my sisters could or would give me the sort of care, affection and attention my parents were supposed to be giving me. But once the attachment was formed, despite the constant hurt and disappointment my sisters made me feel,i carried on the relationship in the hope that one day they would again show me the care and attention that they had shown me once before.

Because i had this attachment to them and was living in hope of having some of my needs met by them, i allowed myself to be treated badly and cruelly and thoughtlessly by them, as despite their misstreatment of me, i still thought that one day i would get what i needed from them.

It is only recently that i have realised that they will never give me what i need, it is not within their capabilities and nor is it their role to act as my parents should have. So i have finally given up the hope and broken my attachment to them.

What made things worse whilst i had this unhealthy and unrealistic attachment to my sisters was that they did not have a reciprocal attachment to me. They were not looking to me to meet their needs which is why i have always had this feeling that i needed them more than they needed me. ie if i cut ties with them it would have actually hurt me more than it would have hurt them. And knowing this was for so long eating me up inside. I couldn't bear the thought that if I cut ties with my sisters, it really wouldn't bother them and yet it would have had such a terrible effect on me. To not matter to people who you feel matter to you, is an awful thing to have to carry around with you.

My attachment and also the hope that my sisters might meet my needs stopped me feeling angry with them. And yet they have done so many things that i would be perfectly justified in being angry about. But i realise that my hope was blocking my anger. I was too scared to be angry with them for fear i would drive them away and then i would never get what i was hoping for from them.

Now that i have realised that I do not need to be dependent on my sisters i can feel my anger towards them and i do not feel afraid of expressing it. I feel liberated, I no longer need to accept being treated badly by them and i will not be afraid to speak out if they do treat me badly.

Again, it shows just how needy i was that i formed this attachment in the first place, and proves just how badly my parents neglected me. My sisters were not nearly as badly neglected as me and therefore not nearly as needy as i was, again something they will never understand.

I do wish there was far more information and publicity out there about the emotional abuse and neglect of children, i think it must be so widespread and yet it seems to be completely ignored by society.

I would like my father to be able to visit us here. I don't know about my mother... I mean she's all over me now - but back in September I had yet another round of "you've ruined my life" from my mum + sister (I've lived abroad for 10 years, ruining their lives from afar gives me superpowers IMO). My mum actually made herself invisible to me on facebook - she's 6-fucking3!

I told my dad because I wanted him to know and as actingnormal said, an annual visit would be fine. My mother may visit but she can stay in a hotel and will not have alone time with the child.

It's just really bad-luck timing right now - I had no idea (obviously!) - but there appears to be some sort of family reunion this saturday in London somewhere and I'm the first of this side of the family to produce a grandchild. So she's going to be quacking like fuck to anyone who'll listen - giving it all. I really fucking hope someone says "how many times have you seen skihorse in the last 6 years?"! Hopefully one of them will... she's always known my mum for what she is and it was her who called social services in all those years ago.

AN, thank you for your comments and you're not lecturing, it all makes sense and you are right in what you say. But in order to allow myself to even see that there are other people out there who can and are willing to give me some of the things i need, i first needed to see that there was no point in hoping to get these things from my sisters. I needed to close that door in order to be able to open other new doors.

It was in a book about John Bowlby, the pioneer of attachment theory, that i came across the idea that a person may form an attachment to a sibling if their primary attachment figure ie a parent, is unavailable to them.

When i think back i realise that i have always made these attachment to females and my relationships with men have always been good. ie i have never been in an abusive relationship. I am sure this is because in the crucial early years, my attachment to my father was healthy and secure and was reciprocated by him. But i don't think i ever had a proper attachment to my mother and she had no bond with me and it is this 'mother love' that i have been craving all my life and has led me to make attachment to any female that shows me some attention/affection. And that is why i have had such problems in my relationship with DD but not with DS. It is all becoming so much clearer now.

AN, thanks again. I have often thought that my situation wrt my sisters seemed similar to the situation many of you have with your parents. You feel 'locked in' to a relationship with the parents/sisters because you have an attachment to them because you are hoping that they will give you what you need. But they are unwilling/unable to give you what you need and instead hurt/upset/disappoint you time and time again. And yet you feel you cannot let go of them or break off the relationship.

I don't know how I reached the point where i am now, where i feel I can break my attachment to my sisters (without necessarily ending our relationship). But i feel i have finally realised that they never have and never will be able to give me what i need. I would have thought that giving up hope would have made me feel very down but in fact it has been liberating. It does not feel like I am giving up anything; instead it feels like I am freeing myself of my dependence on my sisters meaning they no longer have the power to hurt me. It is a good feeling and one I am still getting used to. I am not sure how I will feel when i next see my sisters in light of the changes that have taken place at my end of the relationship. It will be interesting as I feel i will be much more able to speak out if they make a nasty/insensetive comment instead of keeping my mouth shut as i have done until now. I have always kept my mouth shut until now because i was scared of angering them, scared of their reaction if i said anything negative to/about them.

I feel quite sad now that i have realised the dynamics of our relationship. My sisters had so much power over me whether they realised it or not, i was so dependent on them without my realising it, and yet at the same time i was all too painfully aware that they seemed to have no concern for me or regard for my feelings. And they were not dependent on me in the same way so they were not scared to be angry with me or tell me if they thought i had done something wrong. They were in a position of feeling safe and secure because they knew they had my parents on their side. They knew i was vulnerable and defenceless and had nobody on my side and they never hesitated to 'attack' me whenever it suited them. And my parents if they were drawn into any of our battles would always take the side of my sisters, never me. I became so scared of all of them that i never spoke out if i was hurt and even if one of my sisters was in the wrong i knew my parents would still back her over me.

I feel right now that all i am doing is gaining more and more intellectual knowledge and insight into my relationship with my sisters without feeling the painful emotions associated with being the target/scapegoat for my sisters as well as my parents. It's all the worse because i am the eldest and it feels shameful to have been bullied by my younger sisters and to have not been able to stand up to them. But then it was not just my sisters, it was really my sisters and my parents who were bullying me, as my sisters knew they always had my parents' implicit approval to bully me.

I feel quite numb right now about all of this. The pain and torment i went through has not really hit me yet emotionally.