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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Our 6th visit to the Stately Home.....

988 replies

oneplusone · 19/05/2009 11:52

Hi all, took the liberty of starting a new thread. Keep on posting!

OP posts:
smithfield · 29/06/2009 13:29

I would wholeheartedly agree. And wether they are narcisstic or not the fact is these people dont suddenly change. They dont wake up one morning and think from now on I am going to treat so and so differently. Unless of course they have had a flash of insight into their own behaviour and in that case they would need to bring it out into the open, be able to finally communicate openly and without manipulation.
I know my mother is incapable of this and so is my father. They would rather lose me and the gc's than do this.
I think the flah of niceness normally comes (im sorry to say) more because they are (in their own minds) building their defence, as in we are the nice guys. Shrug what have 'we' possibly done to deserve this or that behaviour. Acting blameless.

sakura and opo sorry I cant really offer any advice, but I am sorry you both feel as you do within your marriages.
Mine is no bed of roses either, but for different reasons to yours and I know that dh is not a narcissist. Although I did date one for three / four yesrs before I met dh.
I was decidedly different back then. If I met him (the ex) now I wouldnt tolerate any of his behaviour. I doubt I would even find him attractive? But who knows.
It must be really difficult to have changed as you both have whilst inside this type of relationship. How do you then navigate back? I dont know the answer but I am hear to listen and give support.

OPO- I was a little shocked at your dh's behaviour/ manipulations. At best it is childish and selfish at worst it is abusive. Only you can decide which side of the line his behaviour falls.
How are things today?

roseability · 29/06/2009 13:59

So my parents have been and gone and it only confirmed in my mind what I already knew.

My GM was obsessive about holding the baby. Within what seemed like 5 mins of being in the house she was trying to take her from me, even forcing the issue, demanding that she 'nurse' the baby.

As soon as a turned my back and my DH was holding her, she would swoop in and take her from him. Even if it unsettled her when she was asleep. At one point she said to me 'he (my DH) is nursing the baby and I am nursing the cat, there is something wrong with that'. What? that her Daddy is cuddling her instead of her great grandmother!

She acts like she has some right over everybody else to holding my daughter. It makes me realise exactly what she would have been like with my birth mother. Undermining her ability to settle and look after her newborn.

She didn't want to help me, just to cuddle my daughter all the time. Don't get me wrong, I know grandparents want to hold the baby! But my MIL was quite natural and sensible about it. Only holding my baby when she was offered and never forcing the issue when my baby is settled. In fact she was focusing on my DS more, who is feeling a bit left out.

She is a vile, vile woman. She suggested I will struggle to cope when my DH goes back to work and that she should stay a few days. I made sure that wouldn't happen and sent her home! It wasn't a kind offer of help but a control issue again i.e. you couldn't possibly cope without me. She did some ironing for me, but reluctantly and not without criticising me for not keeping on top of it! I will be fine as I have my ILs aand plenty of friends on standby.

My adoptive father was suitably rude and insensitive at times. One time I did break down (was very hormonal and tired) and he did the whole 'we love you and don't mean to hurt you' thing. Too little too late I'm afraid.

He also suggested we should forget the bad things and focus on the good i.e. how well I have turned out. Well I don't want to forget, especially what was done to my poor birth mother. Maybe I have turned out well (although this is relative, I have been through counselling and ADs!)because I am strong. Of course anything good I do, is down to them.

In my opinion, this early post partum period is all about mother and baby bonding. Help and support should be offered to mum when she needs it, and plenty of praise is a good idea as new mums are sensitive. It is not about anyone else and their issues. The desire to hold a baby should not overide the mother's need to bond with her precious bundle. My GM just doesn't get that.

In fact she acts very strange when a new baby is around. I am sure it is to do with the loss of one of her babies and the fact that she has failed as a mother and GM and does not have a good relationship with any of us.

I am still trying to read your posts and thinking of you all. I am enjoying my daughter so much and when people ask about her name, I can tell them she is named after my mother. That feels liberating, to be talking about my mother openly

oneplusone · 29/06/2009 14:14

Hello Smithfield, and I agree with what you have said. Toxic people don't suddenly change, so if they switch from nasty to nice, it unfortunately does not mean they have had a fundamental shift inside themselves. It is just part of the manipulation to get you in a position where your guard is down so they can attack you once again and gain the satisfaction they need from making an attack.

Thank you for asking how things are with DH. Not good I'm afraid. He played 'Mr Nice' last night, and I'm afraid that I did get reeled in again. Because this morning, we somehow got talking again about our issues ie his mother and some other things, and all of a sudden, Mr Nice disappeared and Mr Nasty popped up. One of the things I find most ugly about DH is he seems to have no line that he will not cross. ie he fights dirty. I do seem to have an inner moral line that no matter how angry/hurt/upset I am, I will not permit myself to cross, as then I feel i would be lowering myself to be as bad as the other person.

Eg. I told DH during our talk that i have found that each time I am able to say what i really feel to him/anybody, i notice an almost immediate improvement in my eczema. So when we were arguing again this morning, he tried to use that information to manipulate me, saying that he would not be willing to have any more discussions with me where i would have a chance to air my feelings and thus effect an improvement in my skin. He knows my eczema really gets me down and is definately my achilles heel, (the other one being the DC's.) So he was effectively trying to hold me to ransom, thinking that I 'needed' him to discuss things with so that i could unbottle my feelings and enable my skin to improve. By saying he would refuse to talk with me in future, unless I agreed to resume relations with his parents at some point, he showed me his true colours. I am refusing to have anything more to do with his parents unless and until his mother apologises to me for her 9 years of bullying. His mother is refusing to apologise so i know he feels completely trapped and powerless. I know deep down he knows I am not being unreasonable in wanting an apology before i agree to allow his mother back into my life and home, but because he cannot force her to apologise he is trying to blackmail me by saying he will not have any more discussions with me unless I agree to drop my insistence on an apology from his mother.

I find his behaviour utterly despicable. He knows how much distress my eczema has caused me and yet he is willing to use my weakness and vulnerability and supposed dependence on him, to try and get me to do what he wants simply because he knows he cannot force his mother to do the right thing and apologise to me.

Not long ago I would have caved in and given in to him ie dropped my insistence on an apology from his mother thinking i 'needed' DH whether it was to talk or for love. But what DH has not realised is that I have moved on. I am no longer dependent on him for love or anything else. I have realised that nobody, not him, not my sisters, can give me now what was missing when i was a child. I no longer feel an attachment to DH or am dependent on him for my needs to be met. I know I only have myself, I can only rely on myself, and far from making me feel sad and lonely, it makes me feel happy and free. Because I know that of course I will not let myself down, i will always do the right thing for me, i will protect myself and look after myself and cherish and nurture myself.

Feeling detached from DH does not mean i have no feelings for him. I do care about him and realise that he behaves the way he does because he has no self awareness or insight. He is blind to himself and his parents. It does make for a difficult relationship, I am on a journey that he seems to have no intention of ever embarking on so we are in very different places. Since we got married, i have gone through some huge changes, but he is essentially still the same person he was 9 years ago.

Smithfield, i know your situation with your DH is different, but how are things with you? Do you still feel you don't love your DH? Sorry if you have already posted about this, i have a memory like a goldfish these days.

OP posts:
oneplusone · 29/06/2009 14:22

Sorry, one thing I find hilarious about my situation with my PIL is that they both profess to be buddhists. And in the past we have many conversations about being 'detached' from people but still caring about them, about being enlightened, as these are some of the tenets of buddhism. I feel that I have not read a single book on buddism unlike FIL who is constantly reading about it, and yet I have reached this point of detachment that is termed as 'nirvana' or heaven in buddist philosophy and I think i have achieved a good measure of enlightenment about myself and those around me. And yet my PIL, I'm sure think I am mad/bad/psychotic, and that they are the good/kind/decent people within our little circle. It does make me laugh; I know that they could read a thousand books on buddism and they would still not have the slightest bit of insight into themselves or their behaviour or reach their goal of 'nirvana' or detachment.

OP posts:
oneplusone · 29/06/2009 14:29

Rose, your grandmother has acted completely as I would have expected (even though i have never met her but as i have already said these toxic people all seem to have the same sort of behaviour patterns). Whereas your MIL.....how lucky you are to have such a gift. The fact that she paid more attention to your DS says it all for me. She clearly has her heart in the right place. You are very, very lucky.

I am glad you are enjoying your new baby so much, I am sure she is the most beautiful, gorgeous, adorable little bundle.

I'm sure you have little time to read/post on here, but spending time cuddling your baby is far more important.

OP posts:
DriversManual · 29/06/2009 23:24

Thanks for the lovely welcome everyone. It feels strange to talk about something so personal in a public place and to be honest it spooked me a little bit, so your warm messages are very much appreciated

Sakura, thank you. It?s funny how we can keep these things from ourselves until relatively late in life ? although looking back now, I can see that it was always there. I am sorry that you never seem to know where you stand with your DH, particularly regarding ?entrapment?. It is so infuriating when we are offered these little carrots of support at precisely the time when we are really struggling to get some sort of freedom.

Thankyou PinkyMinxy. Actually a big eye-opening moment for me was when 2 of my Mum?s siblings offered me support after our biggest falling out ? they told me that they had been concerned about the level of criticism Mum was spreading about me, and independently of one another came to check whether I was okay as they couldn?t understand it. I?ve never told Mum about this as she vehemently denies that she puts me down to others, saying that it is all in my mind, so to have these two adults come and confirm what I had always suspected was actually an immense relief after years of worrying that I was paranoid. As for you, the ?nice phone calls? do sound a lot like evidence building. I find that difficult people often like to build a case for the defence as others have said, thinking of themselves saying ?How could she treat me like this when I was only trying to be nice on the phone?? etc. Transactional analysts call it ?stamp collecting? ? building up a nice portfolio of evidence to support their position.

Oneplusone thank you also for your support and taking the time to read. I am sorry to hear about what is happening with DH, again it sounds like he is trying to keep you depending on him by offering crumbs of kindness. I think your eczema flares are interesting ? often, it?s our bodies that send messages about how much we can actually tolerate, particularly if our mind is struggling to listen. It?s a very direct and honest thing when the body speaks like that. Your body has no agenda other than to keep you safe and alive ? it?s like a spectator who has your best interests at heart in the most uncomplicated and straightforward way. Yes, I bought ?The Drama of Being a Child? about 6 months ago, but can only read a little at a time, it really speaks to me.

Roseability, congratulations on the arrival of your baby and well done! I am so sorry that you have had to deal with such difficulties at what is already a challenging time for anyone. Your GM really has bagsied a starring role for herself there, hasn?t she? Sounds like she made every attempt to undermine you, and isn?t it interesting how people will often do this when we are feeling at our most vulnerable. I wonder what they get out of it? ? a feeling of temporary superiority, perhaps, or maybe reassurance for themselves that they are coping better with life and are needed more. It?s wonderful that it gave you some insight into what it must have been like for your birth mother (sorry if I?ve misunderstood your family situation from that last post). Sounds like you are doing wonderfully in these early days of parenthood, well done you.

DriversManual · 29/06/2009 23:35

also I didn't mention this as was worried would identify me too much, but I am about to be in Roseability's position I have a mental picture of a bingo card for things my Mum will say during her first visit... "This baby is going to make everything better, isn't it?" "I'm so glad you decided to include me" and/or "Please don't shut me out of your life" (both of which will probably come up somewhere around the 10th hour of visit!) "Are you alright? Are you sure? You look tired/not taking care of yourself, are you sure you're coping?" Then finally in front of the maximum number of assembled visitors, when I am at my most sleep-deprived, sore and strung out, she will ask me in a mocking baby voice whether I think I am going to have any more "little collywobbles" (her charmingly belittling term for post natal depression).

This is how she's behaved after my last 2 pregnancies so I don't expect any change this time...

Sakura · 30/06/2009 02:59

PinkyMinxy I would echo what OPO said- that, yes, they are using the entrapment
part of the cycle in their nice phone calls to you
DriversManual at the nastiness of the "little collywobbles" comment. They really go for the jugular don't they.
Thats what I couldn't understand at first about my MIL's behaviour when my baby was born. She actually seemed to revel in the fact I was vulnerable after having DD and used this to get her claws in and assert control. I didn't know what hit me! Surely the natural human response is to be supportive??! This time I have done it all alone. I drove my 2 year old DD to kindergarten each morning by myself and picked her up. It nearly killed me but I'd rather do it all myself than accept any of her help again. Mentally it has been much much easier and I am far less anxious.

AN I cried a littlewhen I read what you wrote about hoping OPO and I can be happy oneday as we deserve to be. I do hope there is more to life than this. Last night DH and I had another argument. I'm just sick of him projecting his mothers greedy and selfish
traits onto me. He thinks I am like her. The real me is invisible to him. He (and MIL too) thinks I married him for his money (as MIL did with FIL.) Funny thing is DH doesn't really have any money! They lost their family business about 2 years before I met him but MIL thinks they're still rich . Our lifesyle is not that great. They don't realise that in the UK we have the NHS and a welfare state and I could probably have roughly the same material lifestyle as a single mother at home (I'd have to work, but what a small price to pay to be back in my own country!!) I think that was why MIL was so evil to me after I had DD. She thought I was stuck.

Lemonylemon · 30/06/2009 11:20

Lordy! What a lot has gone on here since my last posting.

DriversManual welcome and congratulations - your first post has made me have serious thoughts about my relationship with my DS which is very complicated, and a direct reaction against my parents. My DS and I have been through SO much in his short life that sometimes I don't see the wood for the trees and I lose my temper with him for doing stupid things. He's just turned 12 and drives me absolutely loopy with losing things, lying, being deceitful etc all of which are traits I absolutely detest in people. Unfortunately, his late Dad had these traits and my life is a constant battle : nature vs nurture - and its a close run thing at the moment.....

At the weekend, my Mum was trying to do her usual running away act and I actually managed to pull her into line.... I'm probably going to give TMI about myself here, but we had a monsoon on Saturday, road flooded and nearly flooded my house - she was all for getting out of the situation before it actually happened, but I managed to delay her - so she had to help us.

I'd usually get the "oh but i wasn't there to help" etc. blah, blah, blah from her, but not this time

oneplusone · 30/06/2009 11:56

Lemony, hello again. It's taken me a long time but I have finally realised that there is only me who is looking out for me. There never has been anybody else and there never will be.

And there has been a huge improvement in my eczema recently, and I am sure it is directly related to my latest realisation.

I suppose like you say it is something i have to get used to living with. It is not an instant internal mental shift that becomes 'cast in stone' immediately. As just today i felt the 'pull' once again to my sisters, the youngest one this time, so I think it will be a while before I am fully detached. Perhaps it will take a few more 'incidents' with my sisters where i can see they don't care about me, don't really want me around intruding in their cosy little twosome.

I have been thinking recently about how the dynamic between my 2 sisters would change if I stepped out of the equation. At the moment I am their rubbish container, although I have actually been declining to take their rubbish the last few times. But if i cut ties with them, I wonder what would happen. Where would they put their rubbish? They are both, I think, attached and dependent on each other, in an unhealthy way from what i can see, so they would be too scared of what would happen if they tried to dump their rubbish on each other. So it could possibly mean that they would either internalise it and become ill, or take it out on scapegoats, their children and/or DH's. They idealise our parents so would not take things out on them even though they are actually the one's to blame for creating all the rubbish in the first place.

I have a different dilema now. I feel it would be best for me to cut ties, and I feel I am ready to do it and it would not hurt me more than it would hurt them as it would have been the case in the past. But if I do cut ties, i am really curious as to how it will affect the dynamic of their relationship and in order to observe this I would need to be in contact with them. Although i think they would maintain their facade in front of me and pretend everything was perfectly ok between them even though there would, i have no doubt, be huge tensions simmering just below the surface.

For the time being i am keeping in touch purely because it suits me to do so. I would like to be around when middle sister has her baby later on this year but perhaps after that i will cut contact. They clearly don't want me around, at least not for me, only as a place to dump their rubbish, and I have no desire to be somewhere I am not wanted.

OP posts:
Lemonylemon · 30/06/2009 14:02

OPO: You said - "I have been thinking recently about how the dynamic between my 2 sisters would change if I stepped out of the equation. At the moment I am their rubbish container, although I have actually been declining to take their rubbish the last few times. But if i cut ties with them, I wonder what would happen. Where would they put their rubbish? They are both, I think, attached and dependent on each other, in an unhealthy way from what i can see, so they would be too scared of what would happen if they tried to dump their rubbish on each other. So it could possibly mean that they would either internalise it and become ill, or take it out on scapegoats, their children and/or DH's."

Yes, and? is it your problem? your responsibility? Are they your responsibility? Nooooo. They're adults and responsible for themselves - no-one has acted in a manner to alleviate any of your suffering - only you have done that - so, continue it!!! )

oneplusone · 30/06/2009 15:59

Lemony hi. Thanks for your response. I actually don't feel my sisters' problems are my responsibility, although I did a while ago.

I know I should step out of the sibling drama triangle and to a large extent I have mentally at least. I think I am still partially attached at least to my sisters as I have sent them a couple of texts recently,and neither sister has replied. So i have found myself feeling scared and worried about why they are not responding, worried they are angry or annoyed with me about something i have said. If I was completely detached i know i would not be in the least bit concerned about their lack of response and know it was because of their issues and not because of anything i have said or done. I do kind of know this right now, but i still can't help feeling a bit anxious and concerned about their lack of response, which could be entirely innocent I suppose. I am worried mostly about youngest sister telling me we should not visit at the weekend as is currently the plan. Again this is because i must still feel a little bit dependent on her.

I guess it will take time to achieve the goal of complete detachment and feeling completely independent of my sister and not needing or hoping for anything from them. I know i am heading in the right direction, i just haven't reached my goal yet.

OP posts:
oneplusone · 30/06/2009 16:07

Sorry bit more to add, I don't think I should be my sisters' rubbish container, but I am curious as to where they will put their rubbish once I am no longer available. If they start dumping on their DC's/DH's there is nothing I can do. I guess I just want a ringside seat to see what happens. I know that's probably a bit nasty and selfish of me, but I know there is nothing I can do about it but watch, it's up to them to sort themselves out.

OP posts:
oneplusone · 30/06/2009 16:30

Sorry, last post. I think deep down also one of the reasons I am not cutting ties with my sisters even though i know i can and should is actually because of DH. If I do cut ties, i just have this feeling that he will not think it is because my sisters are the problem, instead he will think it's me, that i cannot get on with anyone due to the way I am, ie defective as a person, and that is why i am cutting ties with my whole family.

I got this impression from him when i cut ties with a 'friend' a while ago. I told him a couple of the things she had said which made me finally see her for what she was and cut ties with her. But when i told him, he was on my friend's side, implicating that i was being unreasonable in cutting ties with that friend who was going through a bad patch at the time. He thought i was being a bad friend for abandoning my friend in her time of need as he saw it, and he chose to completely overlook and ignore the deeply hurtful way in which she had treated me and spoken to me.

So if I cut ties with my sisters i am sure that although DH will not say anything, he will think and feel that it's down to me and that my sisters treat me badly because i deserve it as I am a horrible person. He always acts like he is doing me a favour by sticking with me throughout all my problems and thinks, a bit like PM's DH I think, that he is a long suffering partner, having to put up with me for all these years.

I suppose i shouldn't let DH's reaction prevent me from doing what i know is best for me but i can't seem to help it at the moment. Which tells me that i am still a tiny bit dependent on DH as well as my sisters, but again i know i am heading in the right direction in both cases.

DH definately thinks he deserves a medal or something for sticking with me. Especially as i am so useless and defective in his eyes. He is making a martyr of himself and wantg me to be eternally grateful and feel forever in his debt and therefore do whatever he wants for the rest of my life. Because I am not co-operating in this, he cannot handle it and this is what is causing our recent rows. He no longer has control over me and he simply does not know what to do. He is using every tactic he can think of, emotional blackmail using my weak points as leverage, threats, sulks, passive aggressive behaviour and none of it is working. He then gets really angry and he himself doesn't even know why whereas I can see it clearly. And I think he is actually dependent on me now, more than I am dependent on him, so the balance of power has shifted in our relationship. Ok, need to go and ponder that for a while, have only just realised it whilst writing.

OP posts:
PinkyMinxy · 30/06/2009 22:23

OPO I think I really understand what you mean. However, DH used to think like this about me until recently- mainly sinnce we have had children and he really saw how utterly awful my mother is. I think prior to this he was a bit taken in by her, for which he has apologised. It was in fact him who found the link about narcissitic mothers and 'saw' my mother. He also now sees my anxiety for what it is, rather than just as 'unreasonable behaviour'. To be fair to him, living with me has been very difficult and not very relaxing. LIving with someone who is in a near-constant state of anxiety but doesn't know it or why they are like that, or even that it is not a normal way to be must be quite strange, and at times quite unpleasant.
But
At the same time, he has on occaision taken advantage of how easy it is to guilt trip me into doing what he wants, to lay on the emotional blackmail. It is kind of like a shortcut to getting his own way,and he has to realise thius is not going to happen any more. But we have both said some pretty awful things to each other over the years.

Re my mother.. well she has not made any more contact. Therapist thinks like you guys, that the niceness and subsequent withdrawal are deliberate tactics to disorientate me. He described it as if you were pushing against a crowd of people at a football match, say, consistently for a period of time, then just walked away. The people in the crowd would fall backwards- this is what she and my sis are doing now.

He is concerened that I may capitulate at sonme point. That my parents may get ill and I will be sucked back in at some point in the future (I have fallen into the trap of being their skivvy before)- especially given my mother's truly lovely 'wipig her arse' conversations.

Saw my MIL yesterday. Talked about seeing cousins etc. MIL told me how overjoyed she is that we are spending time with her family, how lovely they are and how pleased she is that we are getting together. It really brings into focus how crazy my world has been. If this was my mother she would be on the phone making arrangements to scupper ours, telling them all sorts of cr*p about me to put them off. My own cousins barley speak to me- lord only knows what they have been told over the years, but we have never been close. I have never really been close to any of my family - I never really had 'permission' to get to know my cousins etc. Someone has always been there pulling the strings. It makes me feel quite sad.
He has suggested ringing them up at some point and inviting them to something- I am not sure about this, and he says there is no rush- but I think what he is trying to get me to do is take charge of the relationship, and to set the terms.

PinkyMinxy · 01/07/2009 10:09

I am finding things near intolerable with DH at the moment.

He won't discuss anything of importance with me- he just says I'm 'going on'. He is always doing something else. He has one bill that he has to pay and he consistently 'forgets' to pay it, then it becomes my fault for not reminding him, finding where he left the bill for him etc. etc. If I remind him and put the bill out for him he tells me to stop badgering him.

This morning he was talking with DD1 (2.5) about eye colour, and he said 'yes mummy's a green-eyed monster'. WHy? Why does he always have to make these little jokes at my expense? I have started getting up with them and havng breakfast and going into nursery withh them in the morning, because DS has been asking me to, and DH is always making little comments about me not doing it. But of course when I do it he thinks I am getting in his way- everything has to be done the way he does it. He walks off ahead of me down the street- not waiting for me to lock up.

He accuses me of wanting to do the school run by myself- when actually I think it is him who doesn't want me there.

I feel like there is nothing but resentment between us. He cannot even be polite with me.

Then of course he tells me it is me, that I am 'being weird'.
He makes me feel so small.

DS looked so sad. I feel like crap.

Therapist keeps telling me that he thinks my DH is lovely. EVeryone think DH is lovely. IT is just me. I am horrible. WHat can I do? I feel so angry with him. AM i just projecting onto him?
When he was leaving I said to him why do you say these things when they hurt my feelings? And why , when I tell you that they hurt my feeligns is your response to defend your position rahter than show concern for the fact that you hurt my feelings?"
His response was to shout "I'll remember that".
I asked him what he meant, he said he meant he will take it on board- but this is crap- it's his usual thing of making out he meant something nice when actually he was being mean. OR is it me? Am I being silly? I knwon these are not big things but it is a constant state of unpleasantness and it really gets me down.

I'm sorry for going no about such trivial stuff.

ActingNormal · 01/07/2009 10:51

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ActingNormal · 01/07/2009 13:25

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oneplusone · 01/07/2009 13:43

PM, I know exactly what you mean here:"When he was leaving I said to him why do you say these things when they hurt my feelings? And why , when I tell you that they hurt my feeligns is your response to defend your position rahter than show concern for the fact that you hurt my feelings?"

This is the argument I seem to have constantly with DH. When i tell him something he has said/done has hurt my feelings he always seems to come up with reasons/excuses/justifications as to why he said whatever he did. He doesn't seem to care that my feelings were hurt and i would expect him to be concerned about that. It makes me feel like he just doesn't care about me. I am simply somebody who is there to do the housework. shopping, have sex with him, etc etc. To him I am not a human being with my own thoughts and feelings, just a robot whose job is to be a housewife/mother.

Even as I'm writing this I'm wondering whether the way he is is just the way men are. Women always complain that men just see them as objects not people and that is exactly what DH seems to do with me. But this seems to be very common so is it unrelated to childhood? I have no idea. I thought it was due to the fact that he was cut off from his own feelings due to his own repressed emotions from childhood, meaning he could not empathise with me when i said i was hurt by him.

Right now I just feel so angry and also worried about my situation. I really feel like i need to start all over again, with a clean slate, and form brand new relationships from this point forward. That means cutting ties with my sisters and divorcing DH.

I could cut ties with my sisters, although then i would be consumed with guilt about denying the DC's the chance of having a relationship with their aunts and cousins. But divorcing DH would be even worse than that. It would devastate the DC's. They probably would hardly notice if i cut ties with my sisters as we don't see them very much anyway, but of course they would definately notice if i divorced DH.

I can see so clearly now all the ways in which DH has manipulated me in the past. He was trying to do it again last night, trying to reel me in and get me close so he could feel he still had some power and control over me. But it didn't work, something stopped me from falling into his trap and I am so glad i didn't. We didn't argue at all last night, just chatted a bit quite pleasantly, but I am sure that because he was unable to reel me in last night, he has gone off to work today without even saying goodbye or even good morning first thing. I have always thought that he married me, subconsiously knowing he would be able to control, dominate and manipulate me to make sure he always got what he wanted from me and to ensure i would always do things his way, to his timetable. I'm sure he just didn't bargain for the fact that i would change in the way i have. That i would recover my self confidence and self esteem and be able to assert myself and stand up for myself. He doesn't know what to do now that i am being assertive wrt my needs and feelings. He is trying every which way he can to regain control over me but none of it is working. I have no idea how it's going to end up. At some point surely he will have to accept that he has lost his control over me because i am no longer so needy and desperate for love that i would have done anything to keep him happy. All of his friends are how i was when we got married and that is precisely why he is friends with them. They all have the same things in common, they all lack self confidence and self esteem and they are all the sort of people that DH can dominate and control. I know DH thinks this is just to do with the fact that he thinks he is an 'alpha male' whereas his friends are not.

Anyway, the issues with DH can wait for now. It is my sisters I don't know what to do about. I am supposed to be going to youngest sister's place this weekend but have not heard from her recently in response to a couple of texts i sent. Of course that doesn't mean our weekend plans are cancelled. But middle sister wanted to come along to younger sister's place as well at the weekend and originally she was not going to be there. But she seems to have invited herself along thinking i won't mind. But i do mind and for the first time in my life i have told her that i do not want to do along with her idea and that i would prefer to spend time with younger sister alone ie without middle sister being there. I am sure this has thrown both sisters into a state of confusion as i have never asserted myself with them before. I realise now i was so needy that i would go along with whatever they said as i was so desperate to be included as opposed to excluded from their little twosome. Now that i have said i will not agree to middle sister's proposed change of plan, i'm sure neither sister can cope with it. Ultimately the whole situation is not of great importance, i would not be hugely upset or angry if middle sister did turn up at younger sister's place at the weekend, but it was important for me to make sure middle sister in particular knew she could not push me around at her convenience anymore.

Middle sister i realise now has been a complete bitch to me over the years, i just have not been able to see it because at the same time she has sometimes been quite nice. So of course all these years i have held onto the nice stuff and completely ignored the nasty stuff. She has hurt and upset me so many times and each time i have not said a word, either to her or to my parents when we were younger, instead i just accepted all her rubbish, took it all in, accepted it all without saying anything. I ignored my feelings of hurt and pain, buried them and when she had finished being nasty to me, happily continued my relationship with her. She had the confidence to be nasty to me because she was in a position of safety and security. She knew if not our dad, our mother would always be on her side if i ever spoke up about how nasty she was being to me.

Youngest sister whilst rarely the instigator oof the nastiness would be like middle sister's little sidekick, she would stand alongside middle sister, or behind her, whilst middle sister dished her rubbish out to me. Youngest sister might not join in with handing out her rubbish as well, but she would never tell middle sister to stop and if I ever criticised middle sister, youngest sister would stick up for her. Things changed when youngest sister met her now DH when she was 18. His family fully accepted her and so she then felt she was in a position of safety and security which she did not seem to have felt before, and then it was her who was also attacking me at times; she was no longer just a sidekick or accomplice, she was now also an instigator. But her sense of safety and security which gave her the confidence to attack me came from her family in law, not our parents. During all of this time, i never once felt safe and/or secure enough to at least fight back when attacked by my sisters. I realise now this was because i knew my parents did not want me or love me and so knew they would not support me if i protested at my sisters attacks. I instictively knew not to bother saying anything about my sister attacks on me as i knew i would either just be ignored, told to shut or that the attacks were justified and my own fault.

I am glad that i have been able to see things more clearly in relation to my sisters, but i still don't know what to do about them in the present. I suppose i could maintain a minimal and superficial relationship with them for the sake of my DC's, whilst always remaining vigilant and not letting my guard down whenever i am in contact with them whether face to face or on the phone. Also if i make sure i speak out each and every time they treat me badly, perhaps they will one day get the message that they will have to find another rubbish container.

I am really annoyed though that they have not responded to my recent texts. I suppose deliberately ignoring somebody is also a form of control and attack. I'm sure also they simply don't know how to respond to me. They can't create a fuss and say i am being unreasonable in what i want, I think they know i am not being at all unreasonable. But they just cannot deal with the fact that I have not simply gone along with what they want like i normally do. It's a bit like a game of cat and mouse, but whereas before i was the frightened mouse and they were the big nasty cats, i am now the cat and they are the mice.

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oneplusone · 01/07/2009 14:09

I'm quite pleased that this morning I managed to channel my anger much more positively than i have been able to do til now. I had a huge clear out and sort out of the DC's toys which i have been meaning to do for ages but could never seem to get round to. I was using the energy that was due to my anger. I also felt that my mind was clearer than it had been for ages. I think when the house gets messy and disorganised it is simply a reflection of what my state of mind is. I have always found that when i have managed to resolve my latest 'family puzzle' out in my head, my mind clears and i can blitz the housework etc and get so much done in a short space of time. I seem to be able to think clearly about what needs to be done, how to prioritise my tasks and then just get on with it. Whereas at other times when i am puzzling over things, i cannot seem to get a single thing done, i open a drawer and see that it's messy/dirty and needs sorting out, but i just cannot seem to do it. And it's not because i'm lazy/can't be bothered, it's because I can't do it, because my mind simply cannot cope with the thought process that is needed to for eg.sort out a messy drawer whilst it is also concentrating on working other things out to do with my family.

I remember when i was a child at home, our house was always a mess, untidy, disorganised. It was partly because my dad was a terrible hoarder and would never throw anything away and my mother i think must have lived in a permanent fog and could never sort anything out and keep some sort of order at home. I have been like that myself a lot, apart from the occasional blitz like i had today when i feel i have clarity of mind.

I was also talking to a friend a while ago and she said she found it really hard to tidy up at home, she never seemed to know where to put things etc whereas her DH seemed to be really good at finding a place for everything in the house. I have sometimes felt this is the same with me and DH. He seems to be good at tidying and to me it must be because his mind is clear and not fogged. Perhaps it's also partly down to the fact i haven't worked for 6 years, whereas i used to have a professional job before i had DD. My brain has turned to cotton wool it seems. The friend i mentioned earlier also suffered severe psychosis after she had her DD and spent 6 months in hospital and was then diagnosed with bi-polar disorder. I think it is no coincidence that she cannot think clearly enough to be able to tidy up effeciently.

This is another source of arguments with DH. Sometimes i just do not do what is needed around the house in terms of housework/shopping etc. I just feel frozen/paralysed sometimes. But of course if it has an impact on DH meaning he has no clean. ironed shirts for work he understandably gets angry. But i don't know how to break myself out of this fog sometimes, at least enough to get some of the basics done for DH. Perhaps i need to go back to work. I think i am a little depressed because i am bored at home, especially now the DC's are older and don't need me so much. But i cannot imagine even getting a job never mind holding one down without getting sacked in the first week. And on days when i feel really consumed with all my stuff, i cannot imagine having to go to work and focus on something else. I just couldn't do it and it's not feasible anyway til DS starts full time school next year.

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ActingNormal · 02/07/2009 10:56

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PinkyMinxy · 02/07/2009 21:21

AN thanks for your post.

I really love my DH and I don't want to feel so angry with him, but he is such a stroppy man sometimes- a lot of the time. Like today- we were going out in the car, he gets a bottle of gatorade or somesuch to drink from the shop.

I say oh did you get a drink for DD1? In a casual kind of way. He goes off on one, becaus he has filled in all sorts of gaps which include me criticizing him for not getting her a drink.

I feel like I can't ask simple questions because he is going to blow up at me like this. I have told him today that I am not prepared to walk on eggshells around him.

ALL he needed to say was oh, no I didn't. He could maybe have offered to go back into the shop and get her a drink, or I would have been happy to, it's no big deal, is it? It's not something to lose his temper and shout at me over, is it?

I wonder if my anxiety has rubbed off on him a bit over the years- my fear of getting things wrong all the time has made him fear letting me down- which is why he gets angry and defensive.

Or maybe it's not my fault at all and he shouldn't be so short tempered.
I dunno.

But I said to him that I was not going to put up with his being bad tempered all the time.

I feel bad, also. For the state of our house these days. I too feel paralysed over it. It overwhelms me.

When I had a lot of anxiety all the time I would clean a lot. But now I want to be less anxious about the DC making a mess,and I am. It'd just I feel so down about other things [mother] that I cannot cope.

She left one of her weepy waily messages today, asking if she could come an see us and the children for just a short while over the weekend. I clearrly pained her to have to ring me and ask rather than tell me that was what she was going to do.
But when I range her, I get the "oh we can only come for a short time and we are away the following week so it's the only time she can 'fit us in'.
I thought, bugger, I should have said no but next weekend or something, but at least I have told her what time to come. I think we will go out until they are due to come, and maybe have something in mind for when I want them to go.

THis is horrible, but I think I really do hate her. It is true, all she wants to do is be in control- set the agenda. I feel I have fallen for another of her traps, because I had wanted to invite her, unprompted, instead she has asked for something and I have given it to her. Therapist would say that at least I set the day and the time. Lets see if she sticks to it.

I couldn't wait to get off the phone. I just don't want to spend any time with her.

PurpleOne · 03/07/2009 02:04

sorry for not posting and being around.

my dad left me a message on ansa machine last week. the first time i heard his voice in nearly 2 years. no 'sorry' or 'how are you', he just launches into a tirade of how my mother is treating him like shit. no asking of how we are, if hed like to come see us, or how my life is going.
well yeah dad, she treated me the same way, but you took her side cos your so fucking weak and couldnt stand up for yourself and me either when you KNEW i was right.and have blanked me right off yourself too.

i recently had a diagnosis of bipolar and getting to grips with all the wasted years of chaos and shit. i dont need his crap too.

selfish, selfish bastard.

sorry, am ranting.

much love to everyone. i read often but didnt know what to say?

oneplusone · 03/07/2009 13:39

AN, a bit THANK YOU for your last post. Especially where you talk about not doing the housework but not because you're lazy etc. I am going to print off just that bit and show DH. It could have been written for us. I think it will help DH to feel he is not the only one with a depressed/unable to do housework/moody wife. Although AN, you seem to have moved on from that phase and that gives me hope and hopefully will also give DH hope too.

Not a lot of time right now, back soon. x

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oneplusone · 03/07/2009 13:39

big

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