Am I being awkward and "ruining everything with selfishness" ??

[SnotRag]

Getting married in October. DP and his family (and my family) were expecting and wanting a very traditional church wedding.

Me and DP are athiest ... I refused to book a church wedding for that reason. This upset his family, my family were not too bothered about that. DP agreed with me.

secondly, I don't agree with the whole "giving away" thing. I don't "belong" to anyone and never will. I think the "giving away" thing is outdated and sexist. It's like my father "giving" me to DP ... and then I become his property? I don't think so ... I told DP that I didn't want to do this part. He wasn't happy about this bit but said he would stand by my decision. My father was not happy. I did explain but he thinks I'm just trying to shut him out of the ceromony.

Then the dress episode. MIL thought she would be helping me choose my dress. I wasn't keen on the idea because I knew we'd clash but for DP's sake, I agreed.

She insisted on a long, white flory affair. I refused. She went in a mood and said I was just being awkward on purpose. Without her help, I chose a red dress. Apparantly she was "devestated" DP accused me of trying to upset his parents as much as possible.

Then the final thing, the one that has made me sit back and think "is it me being a bitch?? everyone else seems to think so!"

I don't want to say "honour and obey". I never will obey anyone and what is the point in making false vows?? it just defeats the object of the whole marriage.

I wanted it changed to "honour and respect".

When I said this I caught my auntie and my mum roll their eyes to each other. My cousin took a deep breath and started chatting to the dog and DP got up and said "tell you what, why don't we just not bother at all" and walked out.

My mum then said "well, I'll give you one thing ... if you're trying to get out of the marriage, you're doing a great job so far"

So be honest, is it me? am I going too far? am I being selfish?

YANBU to want to have the wedding you want, but it does sound as though you are being deliberately provocative in how and when you announce these decisions.

I found it telling that the first line of your post states that DP, his family and yours were expecting and wanting a big traditional church wedding. You didn't (fair enough) and DP then agreed with you. From there on, it appears as though you have made all the decisions about what you want (and will therefore allow) at the wedding. It is his wedding as well! Doesn't he get any say or is it that he has to agree with everything you want in order to keep the peace. Because that's how it sounds to me.

To be honest, I don't think the business about 'obeying' was a big deal in itself, few people these days say it, I certainly didn't and I got married in church over 26 years ago. I do think that it was possibly the straw that broke the camel's back - yet another pronouncement from you about what you are going to have or not have at your wedding without discussing it and coming to an agreement with your DP beforehand.

I think you both need to sit down and discuss fully what you want and don't want. You need to be prepared to make some compromises where you disagree on what you want because your DP is entitled to have some say in the wedding.

Ahem stewie, my mum lurved her large flowery hat

The real answer to that question, is of course, that they are the mum, which is a role all of its own! They get to do the fussing, while wearing the hat.

Where is the OP? Why won't she obey our calls for her to return and explain what she's on about?

The church stopped the "who giveth away this woman.." thing in 2000 apparently (although I went to a couple of weddings in 2001 where it was used).
Irrelevant if you don't want church wedding, but might be useful to pacify any father who wants to hear this line and is pushing for a church wedding!
YANBU to want the sort of wedding that you and dp want but YABU to expect no falling out with dp/your family/his family if you are voicing strongly what you do and don't want at what is often a highly emotional time for parents of the betrothed couple (I've always wanted to use the word betrothed in a sentence!).

Prized cow eh? You've obviously seen my wedding photos

When we got married my dad kept saying "don't forget it's your mum's day as much as yours". I could see what he meant .

She got to be a main player in it without having to make a speech or parade up the aisle... Which many people would see as a bonus!!!

i know what you mean though. it is old fashioned.

Can't understand how you ended up having a row about 'obey' when it's completely irrelevant - doesn't exist in civil ceremonies at all and very rare in church weddings these days anyway.

Your choices all sound sensible to me, and yours to make, but you need to sit dp down for a Big Talk as clearly you are both upset.

Btw, I had a very non-traditional (pagan) wedding, I'm happy to call myself a feminist and my father certainly did NOT give me away. (Would have been ridiculous, I'd lived with then-dp longer than I had with Dad.) But he did walk me into the ceremony and I was jolly glad of his very steady arm when I was being all jittery!

sgm, prized cow? lord above, it's a wedding not a psychology paper about gender roles.

it would have just been a nice thing for dad - should one be so inclined to think about others feelings on your big day - which i know a totally self obsessed bride, may not do.

there's PC and then there's PC. i am sure that there are lots of men out there who - being totally straight, would just love to go shopping for fripperies with the self obsessed bride. i am sure lots of men like to pick table cloths and flowers and dresses, and they love to discuss this in much detail.

however, its more likely than not, that quite a lot of men aren't interested in napkin rings and table favours. so if a person were to say in general that men and women who aren't up their arse PCs, might actually and truly conform to the stereotype - which is probably why we have something called a stereotype.

i don't know why men or women give a shit about the colour of a napkin tbh. but there you go.

i do know that as a potential MIL, it would be quite hurtful to be left out of the planning of my sons wedding.

worse still to pretend to allow the families to help and then to get all stroppy and on her high horse about it all being 'outdated and sexist'

i agree, as a both future mother of the bride and evil horrible mil i can sympathise with the families on this immensely, all very well if you want a non traditional wedding... that doesn't give you the right to preach and sneer about those that do like the more traditional ceremonies.

She's hardly preaching and sneering.

Well... come to think of it, we don't know exactly because she hasn't been back... so I suppose she could be... I didn't think so, though, when I read the OP. She sounded upset to me, not preachy and sneery.

I don't think yabu about not getting married in a church or choosing your own dress.

If saying the word obey upsets you that much I am sure you can think of a better word to insert. I am feeling a bit that 15 years into my marriage I wouldn't have a bloody clue what words I said in my wedding vows. I have managed to stay married though.

I think yabu about your dad. It obviously means a lot to him. Would it be that upsetting to have him walk beside you down an aisle? Who cares if he "gives" you away? It does not mean squat in the grand scheme of things.

I think the fact your dp is upset it all means something. If you can't compromise your way through the wedding plans there isn't much hope for the actual marriage.

tell your DH-2-be that you will have obey in your wedding vows if he will have obey in his.

I have only been to one wedding where the word obey was used and I nearly wet myself as it was definetely the wrong way round in that couple.

Obey isn't in the wedding vows these days, and our priest told us that it wasn't possible to use that version.

For my Dad (who gave me away), the few moments before the wedding when it was just me and him after the bridesmaids had gone to church was very special. I don't think you should have that part of the ceremony if you feel strongly about it - but maybe you could talk to your Dad about why it's important to him and try to arrange a compromise?

I don't really have much to add that hasn't already been said.

I take it you haven't gone through the service with the registrar yet. You don't have to obey - nobody does any more, except my SIL 15 yrs ago and she had to add it in. The assumption is that you don't say it. Your family are very out of date on that one.

If your DP really thinks you should be obeying him I think you need to have a good talk about what exactly marriage means because you seem to be coming at it from different directions.

MIL don't traditionally help with the dress - traditionally they don't pay for the wedding so have no hand in chosing the dress. It's a shame if you have not daughters of your own like my poor MIL (3 boys, no girls) - you don't get to do the dress thing but there you go. Thems the breaks. Your MIL is being dramatic and needs to be (gently) reminded by your DP whose wedding it is. Let her help your DP chose his tie.

Your father doesn't have to 'give you away' but I don't see how he would unless those are the words you chose to use. How about him accompanying you up the aisle simply because he is proud of you and wants to be there for support. Is he not going to do a speech at the wedding reception either? If you feel he shouldn't be giving you away then surely he shouldn't be doing a speech either as he has no role to play.

You aren't being unreasonable at all on the face of it so long as you aren't being confrontational in the way you are imparting this information.

Agree with custardo that the OP sounds a bit fishy/thick (and has disappeared) - half of the things she is drama-queening about are irrelevant as they just don't happen in civil ceremonies.

However, I must ad that 'giving away' is a pile of utter patriarchal bollocks however you dress it up and the reemergence of men 'asking permission' of his partners' father/parents is more of the same.

your wedding not there's. if they don't like it they don't have to come esp if you are paying for it.

Stick to your guns! As everyone has said, obey isn't the norm anymore (certainly not in a civil ceremony). Everyone has an opinion of how things should be done, but do it how you and your DP want to - they'll get over it. You don't have to do anything you don't want to as long as you have the legal bits covered .

I normally at people who yell troll at the drop of the hat, but this is a REALLY weird thread and OP.

I can't help wondering if it is some very lazy research on the behalf of "snotrag," (who has only posted the once), and that she is trying to write a book perhaps.

The thing about upsetting the family by NOT having a church wedding, then having a load of further dilemmas which are all about things that only happen in church weddings. Except they don't happen in church weddings any more and haven't happened for about thirty years.

Then there is the overbearing mother in law, expecting to choose the OP's dress ????? I mean WTF ???

Perhaps it's not a book. Perhaps, in the light of Reggie Perrin being re-vamped it's a seventies sitcom she's trying to re-create. Church weddings, obeying, mothers in law...