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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Our 5th visit to the Stately Home

1000 replies

Nabster · 23/02/2009 10:59

Here we go again.

OP posts:
smithfield · 20/04/2009 12:42

Sorry also meant to say bop how incredibly well you write. Do you realise how talented you are?

smithfield · 20/04/2009 12:44

I also think that is why the term poison container is so apt.

oneplusone · 20/04/2009 12:48

That is very interesting AN, thanks for sharing. I am convinced that things that initially seem entirely unrelated and unconnected often have a deep seated hidden connection. Your therapist sounds absolutely brilliant. He seems so 'on your side'. You are lucky. I haven't seen my therapist for a while since she suddenly changed the day I go to see her at a week's notice. It's been really hard re-jigging my life so i can continue to see her and I think she is completely out of order in what she has done, but i haven't the energy to start all over again with a search for a new therapist so I am plodding on with the current one.

Would it be at all possible for you to give me an indication of very roughly where your therapist is based? He sounds really good and I am wondering if it would be feasible for me to see him. No worries if you'd rather not say, I completely respect your right to privacy. I'm just outside London btw.

ActingNormal · 20/04/2009 13:06

OnePlusOne, I am quite paranoid about people knowing who I am and don't want to give too much away about my location etc so would it be possible for you to email me at [email protected] and then I will reply with the details?

oneplusone · 20/04/2009 13:10

That is absolutely fine AN. I will mail you. Thanks so much.

smithfield · 20/04/2009 13:20

Sorry AN- cross posted and also having read through all the posts yet so apologies if Im a bit behind.

Sakura- I wanted to thankyou for what you shared in your post on Wed 15-Apr-09 13:28:08. You said;

?First of all, I am very reluctant to make an effort to do things just for fun or pleasure. Also, if there is a prospect that I will fail at something I have really worked hard for (like my writing) I am flung into a depression for weeks until I can overcome the feelings of failure. It?s an awful way to live. There is literally no sense of self worth beyond what I can achieve.?

This confused me at first because I related to what you said so strongly and yet I don?t consider myself to have been ?good? let alone ?the best? at anything. So I was wondering how it related to me. Like you I NEVER do anything purely for pleasure or for fun and I also feel swamped by negative feelings when I see failure looming. After an exam once I lay myself on the floor (still in my coat) and cried, and was calling myself stupid over and over again. I hadn?t done as well as I knew I could in that exam, but as soon as I had sat down in the exam room I had felt panic and I realise now that anxiety had taken a hold and I was unable to think straight.

I still do think on some level I didn?t want to be better than my mother but also I think the dreadful anxiety I felt about not getting things right (good enough) for her always stood in the way. Only the best would have been good enough.
I didn?t ever see as I child (and this has stayed with me as an adult) the point of doing something for the fun of it, because my drawing pleasure from anything was never of any consequence to her.
For my mother it was having a child that ?was the best? at something. She needed that to bolster her own fragile ego and so I felt her disappointments in me keenly. As someone recently said on here how we internalise our parents, well, once I had internalised my mother the anxiety of something only being worth doing if you can be ?the best? stayed inside me.
No wonder I am a huge procrastinator, no wonder I throw things away if I believe I can?t do them well enough.
If I can?t be the best what is the point. And why work hard if there is a chance you will be crushed by failure at the end.

pinkym- I also wanted to say well done for standing up to your family.
You will feel like this at first (FOG-fear obligation and guilt) when standing up to them.
It's normal to feel like this and that's what you have to tell yourself wif in doubt.
After all, they have been abusing you for a lifetime.
Just give yourself time. Breathe through it and tell yourself that questioning your own actions at this point, or feeling guilt exetera is normal.
I also wanted to say I was horrified by what you wrote about your sister. That is truly 'one' of the most sinister and dreadful things I have read on this thread.
You are so right to be distancing yourself from all of them.

oneplusone · 20/04/2009 13:37

One thing that has struck whilst reading through this thread again is how so many of us need to feel we are really good at something.

There was something in that which struck a bit of a chord with me but not very loudly. But what I have realised is that what I am craving is to be told I am good at something, for my achievements to be noticed and praised by somebody, for my positive personal traits to be noticed and appreciated and again praised I suppose.

I realised this after a couple of times when people have done the things I described above, ie praised me and commented on how good i was at something. I felt like i was walking on air after hearing something positive about myself, said without an agenda and with sincerity on the other person's part. I realised it is something that I have never had and once I had a little taste of it I wanted more. It is like a craving; I have been starved of positive messages towards me all my life and I have got so used to it, so used to living with people being overtly or covertly being negative about me all my life that I didn't realise anything else was possible.

But now that I have had literally one or two 'tastings' of genuine praise and recognition for who I am and what I have done, I realise how much I need to hear such things on a regular basis.

Perhaps this is where this need to excel at something arises from? Is it a need to excel and thus receive and praise and recognition for your achievments? I am beginning to feel the same way, that I need and want to achieve something outstanding, whether it be literary, artistic or in some other way, but right now I don't really know what it is that I should do.

ActingNormal · 20/04/2009 13:48

OnePlusOne, I think that is right and it seems clear when you say it - that people want to excel at something and they think that their drive is to be the best, but what is really motivating them is a need to have their good points noticed and valued by someone! This comes from not being valued enough as children and not feeling anyone will notice your existence unless you do something extreme. We all want to feel that we have a valuable place in the world. Our parents failed to make us feel this, probably because they don't feel it in themselves so they couldn't bring themselves to make someone else feel it. I do think some parents feel "Why should you have it if I didn't".

Btw, I've replied to your email

MuffinBaker · 20/04/2009 13:49

I am so stressed today as I have to go to my meeting. Just makes me feel like a victim again and I just want to pretend there is nothing wrong with me. (NAB btw)

oneplusone · 20/04/2009 13:59

Thanks AN. . Have to go out now but will check when I get back.

ActingNormal · 20/04/2009 14:35

NabsterMuffin, you don't like feeling like a victim - this suggests you feel that there is something wrong with victims - that it was your fault you were a victim. I think this is a common thing people feel. It wasn't your fault though. It was the perpetrator/s' fault. They did it to you because of their own weakness. They are the weak ones not you - too weak to sort out their own problems so they don't end up inflicting them on someone else and too weak to control themselves and stop themselves doing something bad to you.

ActingNormal · 20/04/2009 14:40

Also, Therapist said to me today (and it applies to lots of other people as well) "Look at all that you have achieved, marriage, children etc, DESPITE all that happened". Another time he said he wouldn't be ashamed of what happened he would be PROUD, because of what it took to survive it.

So having been a victim is not something to be ashamed of!

MuffinBaker · 20/04/2009 14:42

I don't feel there is anything wrong with people who have been a victim of something awful, I just feel crap that it defines me imo.

ActingNormal · 20/04/2009 15:04

Define yourself as a Survivor! A strong woman who has battled adversity and learnt a lot about the world that other people who haven't been through it don't know!

oneplusone · 20/04/2009 15:09

Nabs, I think I understand how you feel. Is that you don't like the feeling that you are 'different' to the 'normal' people who haven't been abused? That going to therapy means there is something 'wrong' with you? I feel like that sometimes. Especially when I compare myself to my sisters who were far less abused than me and seem relatively 'normal' and ok compared to me. They are not going to therapy and I do not like the fact that I am going to therapy and I need therapy whereas they appear not to. (At the moment).

smithfield · 20/04/2009 15:29

I have also been thinking a lot about my father and his role. I think I ?was? quite shocked by how complicit he was in keeping me down and making me feel bad about myself.
I often wonder whether he was projecting feelings bout himself or about how he felt about his sister onto me.
I too saw my father (once upon a time) as the hero of the piece. Recently though I have had memories of my dad coming back. Strange things like little sayings of his. Once I saw them as harmless and as Sakura and Pinky mentioned, I would laugh along with them.
But now I see them as quite toxic. For example my dad used to say; ?Do you know what is between here and here pointing to my ears?
Then he?d say ?scotch mist?. ?then?.
?Do you know what Scotch mist is??
?Nothing? cue laughter.

I did used to laugh, I did find it funny, or so I thought. I realise now though I would never dream of saying this sort of thing to my own children. So was it ok to say to me as child?

When my husband rang my dad to ask for my hand, I thought my dad would be pleased that my DH had made the effort to ask him in a traditional sense showing the strength of his feelings toward me.
His reply to DH was ?Are you mad, do you know what you are taking on?? cue laughter.

There is so much buried stuff about my father. But I just don?t have the time now because I know it is a huge and painful task delving into it all. Although part of me does want to.

If detachment ?is? the holy grail then I am no where near that point when it comes to my father.

Sakura What you wrote about seeing yourself through your father?s eyes.
I realise that applies to me and I wondered if this applied to all women.
That is why a father is so important because a father interprets your view of yourself and your place in the world ?.as a woman.

Roseability and PinkyM- I think you both mentioned a feeling of unease about your fathers.

??Dare I say that I almost find him a bit pervy sometimes? I can't put my finger on it and I am not saying he ever sexually abused me but he creeps me out sometimes?

I don?t feel like this about my father (as such, but there is stuff which makes me uneasy about him) but I do/did about my GF. Everyone loves my GF. He is so much fun so entertaining, but I see how he has clearly been such a damaging influence to his own children. My GF would mock me if he was being inappropriate but I didn?t humor him by joining in or laughing. He would imply I was stuck up.
I believed he was right at the time. But now I just think, no, he ?was being? inappropriate. I was his GD FGS.

As for my father, there are things now that do make me feel uneasy. He would stare at me. He had this vacant stare and I would smile at him but he wasn?t seeing me. It turns my stomach when I think about it now.
He was also clearly enraged by me becoming a woman, and got very abusive if there was even a sniff of a boy in the vicinity. I was not allowed to date until I was 17!

Something else that troubles me is he went through a stage of wanting to wrestle with me. I must have been entering my teens I think. 10/11ish. Sometimes he would just lay on top of me and I couldn?t breathe or get out. I remember feeling a bit panicked at times. He?d say that he liked to see my determination and will. That, that was what I needed to survive.

For my part I guess I would just go along with it because I was getting his attention, and secondly if I had to be physically strong and aggressive to win his approval then that's waht I should do.

Then again I wonder if I am making something out of nothing?

It may not have been sexual, Im not saying it definately was or wasnt. In fact I dont think it was because I do think that a lot of what drives my father is feeling more powerful than a woman.

Having the power physically and finacially to keep a woman in her place, because deep down he feels 'less than'. His parents made him feel 'so' much less than his sister.
Ironically he married a woman who bellittled him and undermined him, and destroyed further the little self esteem he had.

AN- Very interesting what you wrote. Two things struck me.
Firstly how awful the birth was with your dd and how much it has affected you.
Did you ver talk about the birth straight after it happened with anyone?
It sounds 'so' traumatic. Describing yourself standing 'soaked in blood' in order to get to your dd, and the feelings of slipping away.
It makes me feel sad as well because it is so much the converse of my mother who said she could not get out of bed for a week to see me. So I stayed by myself in an incubator.
I know that is where that drive comes from. My birth with ds wasnt as traumatic as yours but despite needing a wheelchair to get down to the SBU I was determined to go. I couldnt bare to think of him feeling abandoned. That was more unbearable to me than any physical pain.
I wonder if you yourself have acknowledged the trauma of all of this? Acknowledged what you really went through.
With regard to your fear, I also wondered wether you felt panic as a driver or a passenger or both, but I also wonderd if there was any relation to control and prtotection. I probably shouldnt say anything else as Im guessing part of the process is for you to come to you own conclusions.

smithfield · 20/04/2009 15:37

I also think that is very true. That all that was ever noticed of me was the negative and not the positive and so I am constantly wanting to hear positive things. Like a craving.
I think if you have had a relatively good childhood you probably still have an internalised parent, but they are saying nice reassuring things instead of negative.
Thats why I try and write lines of positive things to myself in a journal.
I think a lot of people in the public eye are probably in the public eye because they are craving the positive attention they never got as children. It becomed like an addiction and they cant get enough of it.

Roseability- I forgot to ask before if you watched a programme that was on recently, it was called 'Trophy kids'. Very clever title but it was all about kids who were very talented in sports, but focussed more on the behaviour of their parents. It was truly shocking to watch the interactions and having seen it I totally empathise with what you must have gone through with your father and how that must have made you feel. When a parent projects that much of themselves onto a young child it is truly hideous.

MuffinBaker · 20/04/2009 15:47

I think it is because I would prefer to be in denial and this means I have to accept it happened.

I am low today and that means I overreact about everything.

ActingNormal · 20/04/2009 15:55

But Muffin, when your therapist helps you accept that it DID happen and process how you felt about it you will feel SO much better in the long term and it will be worth this difficult time while you are working hard on it. I get the feeling you have been resistant to doing therapy because what happened was so bad - so it is even more important that you do the therapy.

MuffinBaker · 20/04/2009 16:14

I have never had trherapy but have had counsellig which hasn't helped.

I am waiting not for an appt for psychotherapy.

I totally am in denial. I can't bare to admit it was me.

MuffinBaker · 20/04/2009 16:15

I also have a very self destruct nature. I have come up with a reason for it but don't know if I have as it is a convenient explanation or whether it is fact iygwim.

smithfield · 20/04/2009 17:16

nabster- You dont have a self destructive 'nature'.
You may 'behave' in a self destructive manner at times because you dont believe deep down you deserve good things for yourself.
At your core you blame yourself for what has happened, wether you currently recognise that or not.

MuffinBaker · 20/04/2009 17:21

I did something a few months ago and I knew as I was doing it that it could only end badly. The rational side of me thinks I was trying to bring the end result on as it will happen and it might as well be now than later.

But I am not sure if that is true or whether I have just come up with an explanation.

It's a real struggle between rationality and emotions.

MuffinBaker · 20/04/2009 17:22

One thing I do blame myself for not fighting back

smithfield · 20/04/2009 17:32

Nabster How do you feel when I tell you 'IT WAS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIGHT BACK'
What do you feel when you hear that?

Would you tell your closest friend if she confided in you, that she should have fought back?

Would you blame your daughter and say 'but why didnt you fight back?'

What would you say to me nabster?

I already know the answer because I know you have a good heart.

Why should you deserve any less than the respect you would give to others?

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