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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Our 5th visit to the Stately Home

1000 replies

Nabster · 23/02/2009 10:59

Here we go again.

OP posts:
PinkyMinxy · 16/04/2009 20:22

AN that sounds like a very insightful point. But it's not just related to adopted children, d'you think? Maybe those of us who had cr*p parents actually feel similar because we felt sort of abandonned by our parents, even though they were still around? I know it's not the same, and to be given up for whatever reason and then to be maltreated/emotionally neglected by you adoptive parents is truly awful

I know a lot of my problems with expecting too much from DH are because of all the anxiety issues I have- they lead to unreasonably high expectations also.

Bop you are so right.When sis said she wouldn't call me ever again for a moment I felt relief, but it did not last. But I don't want to speak to her.

Have felt pretty rubbish today, a lot of anxiety. My sis has phoned again, but thankfully I was out. I wonder if this call list thing is a good idea- yes I can screen who is calling, but the very fact that I know she has called causes me to stress.

When my mother said shs was busy all week I had hoped that I would have a relativ;ey easy week. I had forgotten that when my mother is away my sister leans on me instead.

I know I have tried to mother my sister, to give her unconditional love, and I can't help her. SHe still listens to mother's poison and lets it influence her, despite the years of therapy she has had.

Whenever I stand up to my family my guilt complex kicks in, and suddenly some positive memory pops into my head, saying, see, they were all lovely really, what on earth are you on about?

With my sis it was the fact that she held my hand for part of my very difficult labour with DS. My mother really kept her distance, but my sister was there for me. Damaged as she is,and despite all the horrid things she did/does to me, she has been more of a mother to me than our real mother has. So I feel guilty. But really when she is being nice I am just something for her 'to do' I think, which is why I feel like a toy, or mascot for her. I don't think there is any possibility of apositive relationship with my siblings so long as they are under the influence of my mother's manipulations.

BopTheAlien · 16/04/2009 22:05

Sometimes I wonder if the whole journey is basically breaking down the denial. A lot of people have been posting about that voice that says "it wasn't really that bad" or "you're making it up" and so on. I know I've struggled with those voices for years, and it's ongoing, although it is a lot better now than it used to be. The way I see it/work with it is that those voices are my internalised parents, because I really think that we carry our parents with us long long after our childhood is over, and even long after severing contact with them. I look at my own parents and the things they did/do and I know they are still in thrall to their own internalised parents, who they have never actually "stood up to" or challenged internally, although of course their parents have been dead for many years.

Smithfield, that story you tell about your mother and the heartbreakingly cold treatment she received from her own mother, is a great example of this - your mother has evidently never challenged her own mother's authority and so passes on the same heartbreaking coldness to you. I think the way it works, in the unconscious, is that they have to keep denying that their parents did anything wrong, because they can't cope with the pain they would feel if they allowed in the truth, so they have to justify their actions - and carrying on the same treatment with their own children is the biggest justification of their parents of all. Our parents never grew up, emotionally. This is certainly what I think of my own parents, anyway - I realise I can't really speak for anyone else.

I asked my mother once, when I was in my 30's and trying to work things out after the first estrangement - what were you like as a child? Because all the things I knew about her were just the same old stories retold in the same words and with the same distance, as if it were someone else she were talking about, every time. So I wanted something fresh to help me understand her, hence the question. And her reply really shocked me as I hadn't yet understood back then just what a hostage she is to her own past and her own internalised parents. She said: "oh, I was pretty obnoxious really - always singing and dancing and trying to get their attention, really annoying basically." And she said it without the slightest hint of compassion for herself, much like your mother's story Smithfield, no hint that in the intervening 60+ years she had even once been able to think, hang on, mabye there's a different angle to this picture. To me, the way she described herself was as an absolutely normal child, an engaging, spirited girl who just wanted to have some fun while the grown ups were doing boring things, just wanted some love. But they obviously made her feel she was obnoxious and annoying, which she then in turn passed on to me - one of her favourite put downs was "stop showing off" - and yet, at the same time I had to go to bloody piano lessons every bloody week and practice every bloody day, and if I played a piece well in front of their friends they were well chuffed. Which shows that logic or reason or fairness doesn't even enter into the way they behaved, it was all about unconcsiously justifying and exonerating their own parents to suppress their own pain at having been neglected/emotionally abused/deprived of the unconditional love they needed.

They're locked into their ways of thinking and it would take a nuclear bomb to blow their lids open. Actually, they've probably got a secret bunker in their unconscious that would protect them even against that.

I think one reason my brother has done so much better than me in life is that my mother didn't project herself onto him the same way she did onto me. I think for some reason I bore the brunt of both my mother's and father's (negative) projections - maybe because they were both youngest children, like I was; I was a girl - ergo my mother; and I look very much like my father - ergo him. Or coming after my sister's death made it more likely, I don't know. Maybe just plain family dynamics - I do believe there are roles in each family that have to be filled, and I got the victim/scapegoat/loser role while my brother got bully/golden boy/ free agent. If there's a bully, there's got to be a victim.

Pinky, I was thinking about that when you said about your mother sending you into situations where she knew you'd get bullied - was it maybe that the family dynamic was set up so that you had to be the victim, so she would unconcsiously send you into the fray like that? I do believe a lot of what my parents did was unconscious - and my goodness, doesn't my mother love to bleat again and again and again "but we never meant to hurt you" - but how can that make it allright? Your mother probably didn't mean to, Pinky, but she still sent you into that hellish situation time and time again; my mother was the same, even when I told her how badly I was being bullied at school and begged her for help, she "turned a blind eye" and just flatly denied there was a problem, thus leaving me to deal with it entirely alone, as I had done for several years already, but now with not even any vague hope of rescue.

AN, I was so shocked when I read about your father being deputy head at the school where your brother was bullied and denying there was a problem there! Is "I didn't mean to hurt you" excuse enough for not having done anything to protect your child from years and years of being thrown to the wolves, emotionally? Oh, and lol at your mother Pinky thinking she's so great with small children - my mother is very similar, wants desperately to think of herself as very warm and loving and caring and maternal, and has managed to con a lot of people around her through her life, eg my father and brother, who are oblivious to how deeply selfish she is at root. And how emotionally totally unavailable.

Smithfield, my mother did hug me - but it was like being hugged by a robot. I think the hugs were to make her feel better, not me. You and Sakura have both talked, I think, of your mothers needing you to be dependent to make them feel better - that is so true with mine also. She needed to keep me small. Mine cooks a lot too, but didn't teach me to cook, or to look after myself in any way really - it was always "oh, it's quicker if I do it myself" (message - you're so stupid you're incapable of doing even the simplest things) alternating with her just yelling at me to do stuff that I really didn't know how to do. Never any admission that by her not teaching me what I needed to know to be able to function, she was not doing her job as a mother properly. No, she just kept on doing things for me and thinking that made her a really terrific, loving mother, and conning everyone else around her too. And competing! Lots of people talking about that recently - oh my goodness, yes, the competition. She hated my intellect - even though I was completely unaware for a long time that I outstripped her in that department, she probably knew a lot earlier and deeply resented me for it. Which was another reason she loved to put me down for being so "incompetent" at the practical things at which she shone.

My God, it just goes on and on, doesn't it. Aware this is a very long rant, it does help enormously to get this stuff out though and I do hope it may be useful to someone else too. Smithfield, I wonder if that fact you can feel empathy/compassion for your mother but not yet for yourself is to do with deserving/undeserving - do you feel somehow that she deserves it and you don't? The same way you feel maybe you don't deserve the space to write about you? I know that this has been a big issue for me anyway, and healing the aspect that feels undeserving is very, very important for me. Anyway, I applaud you for taking the step to write deliberately about you, as that is a strong, clear message to your inner child that you do deserve support and understanding, and I hope it has helped. Sorry if that sounds a bit sententious, it's not meant to be!

roseability · 17/04/2009 08:59

BOP - so much of your post has made me think

My mother also never taught me anything. In fact she wouldn't let me in the kitchen and just got irritated if I tried to help. When I went to university I was the first student to set off the fire alarm because I burnt rice! She used to talk about this as if she was proud of it, couldn't see that she had failed me in a way.

My mother used to compete with me about everything. She used to play trivial pursuit with me as a child and relished beating me . Both my parents are very threatened by my education.

Oh and the cold hugs. The only time she hugged me was after a terrible row when she had said something wicked like she hated me or she wished I had never been born. Then it would be a cold hug for her benefit.

She loves to play the doting grandmother to my DS. Tries to show she is motherly and natural with babies and children. Does the whole 'how could anyone hurt their child' thing. Maybe she was good with me as a baby/child (I don't really remember tbh) but mothering extends beyond those years. Parenting teenagers is one of the most crucial stages I feel and my parents were abissmal.

Actually come to think of it she wasn't that great when I was a child.

Soemthing triggered me yesterday. An article in the newspaper about measuring primary school children's BMI. My father would love that. It brought back all the sad memories around my father's bullying about my weight and food and my mother's compliance with this.

Does anyone get unbelieviably sad when watching films about maternal bereavment? I remember going to see Bambi with my adoptive mother when I was about 8. I was depressed for ages afterwards, more so than an 8 year old would normally be I think. I realise now that even then I was grieving for my birth mother. I just wish I could have expressed it more.

ActingNormal · 17/04/2009 11:52

Can't write much as preparing to go away for a few days (and visiting my parents on one of those days which I'm nervous about).

Pinky, yes, I do think there will be similar symptoms for anyone who feels abandoned/let down by their parents and I wrote it partly to find out if other people felt those things as well. The more I read on here, the more I realise there seems to be quite a common set of 'symptoms' of crap parenting! Knowing this makes you feel not so much like you are being stupid doesn't it!

I got really wound up by Eastenders last night. The way Ronnie desperately wanted to find out little details about her daughter who she gave away and what she was like, and she asked whoever she could find. This is how I imagine I would be if I had given away a child and it is how I thought my birthmother would be when I met her. I am SO bitter that she asked me next to nothing about myself. All she wanted to do was talk about herself. My feelings of unfairness flared up last night. (Why did some people have the parents I would have wanted and not me? Why did I have a cold adoptive mother, went looking for a warmer birth mother and found her to be just as cold?). I know I'm being childish and I don't care!

DH thinks Eastenders may have been unrealistic. He thinks that if a young mother has been forced to give away her baby it is different to if she has made a firm decision herself to do it. My BM's parents wanted her to keep it, she wasn't forced to do it, she said it was the first decisive thing she did in her life. She thought it was for my own good but DH thinks that it must be such a hard and unnatural thing to do that even if you thought the baby might be a bit better off with someone else it would be so hard for a 'normal' person to do that they wouldn't do it. He thinks my BM must have been messed up/cold/closed off already and that is how she was able to go through with it.

I think it is realistic in Eastenders how Ronnie became cold and hard as a reaction to the pain of severing from her baby and I think my BM became even more like this after giving the baby away. It seems like I never was going to meet the warm birthmother of my fantasies.

When I was reading webpages about adoption the other day another thing that struck me was they said that a woman who adopts a child is quite likely to have experienced loss herself while trying to have a natural child. My adoptive mother had several miscarriages. Like my birth mother I think she was messed up/cold already from her horrible childhood but the miscarriages are likely to have made her close her emotions off even more. It seems like with these sets of circumstances I never had any chance of having the fantasy warm mother of my dreams. What an almighty fuck up it all was! Somehow, I don't know why, putting these thoughts into words makes me feel a bit better! Maybe because I can see that it was all nothing to do with what I was like and what I was as a person and all to do with the messed up-ness of my birthmother and adoptive mother. Like Therapist says "It was just bloody bad luck".

ActingNormal · 17/04/2009 11:56

...this writing helps me to understand that what happened doesn't mean anything about my value in the world. I feel less valuable because of it but in reality it doesn't mean I'm less valuable.

Anyway, off for a few days now.

Sakura · 17/04/2009 14:56

Bop, about your niece, i read something helpful somewhere that once you start going down this route you must be prepared to lose everyone. I realised that I had to be prepared to lose my brothers. I was lucky in that they pulled through for me in the end. At the end of the day I raised them while my mother had her "career" so it was unlikely they would completely turn against their most reliable mother figure. But it was most definitely a risk I had to take. Narcissists and bordelines will do ANYTHING to win. They will use underhand tacticts and tricks to get the people around you and them on their side. I also read somewhere that alliegence and loyalty are two different things. I like to think that although my mother demands alliegence (sp?) from my brothers they actually feel a deep sense of loyalty towards me, which has kept a relationship between me and them alive.

I want to write about my dad. I have been thinking about him a lot thesedays, before I go to bed etc. I feel that now I have sorted out my mother, my dad's terrible failings are starting to come to the surface. I always imagined him being the "better" of the two. ANd he was, but only because my mother was so incredibly incredibly shit. So now I have made my peace regarding my mother, the ugliness of my father's behaviour is coming to the surface. One thing that I only realised this week is that he would (and still does) ridicule me about anything and everything. This ridicule has no connection to reality, I realise now. Its just ridiculing for ridiculing's sake. So for example if I ever did tell him about this writing award that I've won, if told him about it and where the ceremony was being held he would do something like snigger at the ceremony location or something totally irrelevant. THen I'd perhaps laugh along with him and then he would have managed to do it again- belittle what was important to me and put me in a little box where I am a silly little girl and he is the adult who understands and knows about the world.
I keep forgetting that I am an adult now too. I am on an equal footing with him. And while he is an intelligent man, there is a slight possibility that in some areas I may be more intelligent than him. But I accepted his version of reality for so long that it almost became my reality. I think this is how sexism and racism works. In sexism, for example, if men see women in a particular way its not a problem unless the women also start to see themselves in that way. Some men have a real problem with overweight women for example, or some men can't stand the sight of pregnant women, or some men think prostitutes are bad etc. This is not women's reality but sometimes when you get all this disgust bombarded at you you can start to internalise it and actually believe it. This is what happened with my Dad (who is extremely sexist!). All my life I thought I was a shit driver until I came to Japan where I was treated like a competent adult by my husband and friends and now I drive on motorways and around the countryside in a foreign country and I realise I'm not a shit driver at all. But because I saw myself through my father's eyes for so long. In a recent letter he asked me how my "confinement" was going. I didn't reply to that. How can the creation of a new life- the most amazing thing any human can ever achieve- be reduced to such a patriarchal, victorian, belittling, lowering word as "confinement". That is a word that completely reduces the importance and significance of what a woman is going through when she is pregnant. That is the world through my fathers eyes!

roseability · 17/04/2009 16:23

Sakura - My FIL thinks the biggest problem is that my parents have never seen me as an adult. A big trait of toxic parents I think. The problem (for them) is that they can't control you as an adult, so they don't want to accept you have grown up. That you may be different to them and/or better than them at some things (or everything!).

My father often patronises me and is definately sexist. When he sees my bump, he can't hide his disgust. For him, he can't bear women looking bigger in any way. He likes women that look skinny and boyish with short hair. I think he fears female sexuality tbh. Each to their own but I will never be that shape and he has never accepted it. There is definately a bit of a blur between what he believes women should look like in order to be attractive and what he wants me to look like. Dare I say that I almost find him a bit pervy sometimes. I can't put my finger on it and I am not saying he ever sexually abused me but he creeps me out sometimes.

I like your phrase about coming to peace about your mother. I believe I am getting there too. Although there will always be a loss/sadness I have accepted that she will never be what I want her to be. That she is a bad mother and that is not my fault. All I can do is focus on my own family and be as good a mother as I can to my precious children.

PinkyMinxy · 17/04/2009 21:21

Sakura I feel we have a lot in common. I did not bring up my siblings, but still. Obviously we both have narcissists for mothers, but my Dad, aside from the torrents of shouting and name calling and raging, he always ridicules everything I do or talk about. The last time he came to my house he described the meal i gave him as 'slop' and made the usual ooh dear I'm braving pinky's cooking jokes. It was just me and him and the dcs, no DH. I found myself laughing along- HE IS SO FUNNY- don't you think? He's a sh*t dad. Utterly utterly horrible. He creeps me out, too, Roseability. I often feel very iffy about him. He clearly has major sexual hangups. There have been incidents that have made me feel a gut feeling, you know, that something is not right. I don't let him be alone with my DC.

The driving thing- I was ridiculed every time I suggested I might learn to drive, by my whole family.

My mother never taught me to do anything, either. She is quite proud of this fact, for some reason. I never played with you, I taught you any of these things are common phrases. SH enever taught me to sew, to cook, to do the laundry, dress myself, tie my shoe laces, wash myself, all manner of things. As a result, she takes the mickey out of the way I do lots of things- because I had to teach myself, so some things I might do in a non-standard way. It all helped with the control, and tomake me feel abnormal and inadequate.

A common thing is in the kitchen. Everyone is welcome to join in with cooking, washing up, having jokes etc.in my parent's kitchen, except me. I get barked at, humilited, made to leave. Then I get accused of not helping. I find myself trying to make a pot of tea after the meal but my father won't let me. SO again I am not contributing. My therapist says this is all deliberate, to make sure I have no role, and that I can do no right, so I can be kept in my place- which, quite frankly, seems to be no place at all.

Can I say this- I know it sounds childish- but I hate my old family. But I wish I just felt indifferent.

PinkyMinxy · 17/04/2009 21:22

I never taught you any of these things

roseability · 18/04/2009 18:14

Do any of you feel that the way emotions were processed in your family was very damaging?

In my family growing up there was either blood, red spitting anger or no emotion at all. The normal day to day emotions that happen in all families were not tolerated and any said person demonstrating such emotions was accused of being bad tempered, over sensitive and nasty.

I sense that in normal loving families one can snap, show anger, hurt, happiness, excitement, jealousy etc without disasterous consequences to one's self esteem and emotional development. Showing such emotions is normal in day to day human existnece and family life. It is not necessarily right to always act on negative emotions but they should be acknowledged and processed by loving parents.

My father would rage at me and say wicked things. He was within his right to say such things (he believed) and demonstrate anger in such a damaging way. However if I so much as said boo to my parents the usual slanders were thrown at me 'you are a nasty piece of work', 'you over react', 'you are a bad person'. In time I internalised this so that whenever I felt any negative emotions in day to day life I believed it was my fault and I had no right to feel that way.

It was hypocritical. Yet no emtions were shown whenever I was excited or happy. When I have phoned to tell them about significant events e.g. getting engaged, it has been like talking to robots or people who have been bled dry of normal human emotions by body snatchers!

roseability · 18/04/2009 18:17

PM - I too feel hatred towards my parents. The indifference is coming though and slowly out weighing the anger and hurt. That will never go completely but I am finding some peace. You can get there, I promise

oneplusone · 18/04/2009 21:21

Hi, all haven't been able to log on for a while. Have only just now read roseability's last post and can say that I agree with every last word.

In my family we were either having a blazing, nasty, no holds barred row, or...nothing. No other emotions were ever displayed. I think we all learnt very early on that we would be mocked and ridiculed if we displayed the normal happiness, excitement, fear, etc etc of every child out there and so we all kept our real emotions tightly bottled up and put on an act of 'no emotions ever' as required by our parents. How to unlearn this habit is now very hard. I do not know how to 'feel' my emotions now as and when they arise. Happy is not too hard, but pain, hurt, sorrow...I don't know what happens to them in my case. I just go numb when eg. DH says something hurtful to me during a row, and the next day notice a new patch of eczema, or some spots, some physical sign appears representing my 'unfelt' or 'undisplayed' emotions.

Also the thing about parents having NO REACTION to good news rings a very loud bell with me. I will never forget when i phoned my parents to tell them i was pregnant with DD. I thought my mother would be over the moon, but she said absolutely nothing, not a word. And yet when DD was born, she seemed to appear as if from nowwhere, out of the woodwork and forced her way into my life until I cut her off. Before that as i have said many a time, she may as well have no existed as she was never there for me in any way whatsoever.

I have been indifferent to my parents for years. I think it first started when i was still at home, as a teenager, a few years after my dad's abuse started. After I cut them off I felt a HUGE amount of hatred and rage towards them (I bought a baseball bat and used to imagine them sitting on the sofa and beat them with the bat til i was exhausted and I used to go in my car to a quiet place and scream out loud at them).

I think now I have gone even beyond indifference. They are just non-entities to me, they simply do not exist. BUT I do still have moments of extreme grief and sadness when it hits me all over again, the full horror of what I went through as a 10 year old little girl and the knowledge today that I was absolutely right all along that they have never cared about me. I suppose after I cut them off a part of me must have been secretly hoping that they would contact me and say all the things I wanted to say, apologise, acknowledge how much they hurt me and admit all their wrongdoing. Needless to say it hasn't happened and I think it is really and truly dawning on me at the moment that there is no hope, they will NEVER really think about me, about how they treated me as a child, how my dad abused me and my mother ignored/neglected/deprived me.

I have also realised how defensively i have always been acting, with DH in particular. I am so used to having to stand up for myself (i had to as a child, when my dad was nasty, cruel and vindictive towards me, after a couple of years I suppose, i started standing up for myself (and sometimes for my mmother and sisters) and defending myself verbally and also i realise now 'counter-attacking' my dad verbally. Of course he alwasy won our fights, but i would always put up a fight, i was never passive in the face of his attacks.

But yesterday, I had a bit of a row with DH about his mother. I told him i could not put up with her criticisms of me any longer. But he is between a rock and a hard place. He loves his mother and she has been a good mother to him. He also loves me and recognises his mother has treated me badly. But he cannot join me on my side and go against his mother completely. After quite a few hours of talking/rowing about the situation i just felt exhausted. Exhausted and tired of always having to stand up for myself, of always having to defend myself. Tired of having nobody there to look out for me, stand up for me, be on my side. DH said that if it was anyone else who had said hurtful things to me he would have had no hesitation in stepping in on my behalf but because the person hurting me was his mother it was not an easy situation. I was in tears. I understood his pov. But i just felt SO TIRED of defending myself, my feelings, my right not to be used as a punchbag, doormat, poison container. I had no fight left in me. I have been standing up for myself since I was 10 years old, so for 28 years and for 8/10 years of that time i was still a child.

DH can see that I am behaving with him as I did with my parents. That I am always quite aggressive/on the defensive, i always have to try and have the last word, insist on voicing my opinion even when i know I am annoying DH (sometimes to deliberately annoy DH). But it is only now that I can also see for myself how I am behaving with DH and that my behaviour is a habit formed out of necessity in childhood as a survival strategy. That sort of behaviour is no longer necessary in my current environment as nobody, least of all DH, is out there looking to attack me. I realise i must have always felt the threat of attack from my dad and i must have become extremely aggressive/defensive as a result. The trouble is when that sort of behaviour begins at the age of 10/11 it must become inbuilt, hardwired into my brain. Hopefully my recent realisation will help in breaking this habitual behaviour.

Sorry, have to go, DC's are calling.

PinkyMinxy · 18/04/2009 21:30

Thank you Rosability. I feel quite bad for writing that, but it's the intensity of the feeling I find difficult to deal with. I loved them unconditionally for years and years- my whole life- and it has never been returned, so now I am feeling the flipside very intensly. I think have felt angry with them for the deep deep hurt I have carried all these years.

And yes, your are spot on. I am never allowed to show even the mildest disappointment in anyhting with out being told off. Those phrases sound veyr familiar. My mother's shorthand is just to call me nasty if I hint at disagreement with her.

roseability · 18/04/2009 22:37

oneplusone - I always tried to stand up to my father as well, was rarely passive. However he always resorted to saying things that he knew would really hurt me and I would end up devastated. Although I didn't take it lying down, I never came out as the winner (if there is such a thing).

I completely understand the being tired of having to fight and defend yourself. I think this comes from never having the unconditional love from parents who will defend you and be on your side no matter what. There is no other love like that (probably not even DHs) and we have missed it. Thus our great anger and sadness. However we can try and give it to our own children and try and find peace through that. I have to go now (very tired!) but will post tomorrow. take care

oneplusone · 19/04/2009 17:32

Have finally managed to read over the last week's posts. As always there is so much that I can relate to in what you all have said.

About mother's not teaching you anything; me too. I have had to teach myself to cook, do housework, everything really. In this respect I have learnt quite a lot from MIL, as she seems to be good at things like that and has an efficient way of getting things done. My mother was completely hopeless around the house and at cooking, she had no idea what a healthy balanced meal was and the house was always a disorgansed, chaotic mess. I think in hindsight the state of the house probably reflected my mother's state of mind. I have found that on the days when my mind is clear and not foggy, I can get things done so easily and quickly. On my foggy days, I cannot think straight and it is so hard to organise myself and the DC's etc. I think my mother must have lived in a permanent mental fog, it makes sense as she just seemed so useless and hopeless at organising anything and keeping some sort of order in our house.

Bop, I can completely relate to one of your posts where you talked about the gap in your life where your family should be (your birth family). I feel that void too, very much. I am so sorry to hear about the fragility of your relationship with your niece and again I can relate to that (although I do have a DD so my situation is slightly different to yours). It's just feeling of rejection I have I suppose from my sisters, or the youngest sister in particular. I know it is not really a rejection of me personally, more of an 'adoption' on my sister's part of her family in law to replace her biological dysfunctional family, but it still feels like a rejection of me and my DC's and also that I am not good enough to be an aunt to her DD whereas her SILs are good enough aunts and she prefers them to me.

Also, what people have mentioned about hoping our PIL would act as substitute parents. I realise now I did this as well, in a big way. I remember years ago MIL doing things for me that I, at the time, genuinely thought were really all about me and were because she loved me and wanted to look after me. I realise now none of the things she did were for me, but were all for the benefit of her son, DH. I think at the time i was so desperate for a proper mother in my life that i simply could not think straight and see the real motives for her behaviour which were the well being of her son.

My recent problems with my MIL I think stem partly from my mistake in thinking my MIL would behave as my mother. I think I had completely unrealistic and unreasonable expectations of her and so when she was nasty to me, I felt hugely and deeply hurt and betrayed, disproportionately so, I realise now. There's no denying that she has been vile at times, and has greatly overstepped the mark many times, even with the justification that she was only looking out for her son, but I think perhaps now that my anger towards her and the deep hurt i felt at her treatment of me may be in part due to the fact that i was seeing her as a mother, not mother in law and of course they are two very different things. So when MIL was nasty to me, i felt let down as i thought she wanted to look after me and cared about me as if she was my mother but of course this was never the case. As far as MIL was concerned, I already had a mother who would look out for me and her job was to look out for DH. MIL wasn't to know that my own mother was just an illusion of a mother, that she wasn't now and never had been a real mother and that she certainly was not going to be looking out for me or standing up for me or anything like that.

So I suppose some of the rage I have been feeling towards MIL should actually be directed towards my own mother.

Also, this thing about always having to look out for myself, always being on the defensive against attacks from DH. I think now that as well as being just too tired to fight anymore on my own behalf, but also realising that there is actually no need to fight any more, or to always be on the defensive, or to be aggressive. Because as DH said to me the other day, he is not my father, he has no agenda, he has nothing against me. On the contrary, he loves me and wants to look after and look out for me as much as he can. It is not so much a case of giving up the fight, but realising that there is no longer an enemy to fight with. Everyone in my family (DH and DCs) love me. I suppose that is such a new feeling (of being loved and wanted and respected by my family) that I need some time to get used to it and to believe it and act accordingly. Until now, particularly with DH, i realise i have been acting just like i did with my old family, who themselves did act like my enemies, (I suppose they were in fact my enemies as somebody's therapist told them), and my dad definately treated me as if I was his enemy and that i was out to get him, manipulate him and use him. Growing up in that environment, with my own family out to get me and seeing me as the baddie, no wonder i became so aggressive and defensive and so keen to always fight my own corner and not let myself be exterminated. As a child i must have felt my only hope of surviving the attacks from my dad and the bullying and sniping from my sisters was by counter attacking and arguing back and basically always standing up for myself. If my mother had done that for me, as was her job, I am sure I wouldn't be the tough acting, aggressive, defensive, argumentative person I can be today, mainly with DH, when I feel 'under attack' by him or if i feel he is not taking my needs/feelings into account. But i don't need to be that way with DH. He is not my dad. He does care about me or he wouldn't still be with me. Although I know this logically, I still don't know if i believe it on an emotional level.

Sakura, I think that thing you read was very true, that once you go down this road, you have to be prepared to lose everyone in your old family and i think that is what has happened to me. I do still have contact with them but it's very superficial. But then I can't say I've lost them as I never had a real relationship with them in the first place anyway, it was all just an illusion.

PM, I just wanted to say a belated well done for saying no to your mother. I can clearly remember the first time I did that. I was shaking and scared inside, but I stuck to my guns and was polite and calm, and I think my mother simply did not know how to handle it. She just went on and on and on about what she wanted me to do and I kept saying no. I think she just could not take no for an answer and thought if she persisted I would give in eventually as I had always done in the past. I don't even know what gave me the courage to stand up to her on that first ever occasion, and I didn't realise the significance of that occasion for quite a while afterwards. So well done, it is a big step on your journey and it was brave of you to take that step.

I think I have gone on enough for one day, sorry to ramble on so much, all your posts trigger so many thoughts and ideas for me.

PinkyMinxy · 19/04/2009 19:24

Oneplusone
I am so happy for you that yopu have managed to think your way through your feelings towardsyour MIL, and your own family- DH and DCs. I feel I am still at the bewginning of that particular journey, though things are improving. I used to try to work out why DH has stuck with me all these years- and gone through the whole dark gamut of strange ideas- one being that he just wanted to have someone at home who would 'do' for him. I realise much of this reasoning is very silly, but I still find it very hard to accept that he has no controlling agenda and is with me because he wants to be. But things are getting better.

roseability · 19/04/2009 21:13

Feel a bit weird today. Had the usual unsettling phone call with my mother this morning. She had complained recently that I never have time on the phone anymore that I used to phone frequently and be on the phone for hours. That we don't seem to have anything to talk about and that I don't talk about my life.

Firstly this was pre children when I had time to do that. Secondly we were usually on the phone for hours having bitter rows or as my mother said in her own words, me acting as her counsellor.

So this morning I actually tried to chat a bit and got on a roll talking about DS and what he has been up to. She abruptly ended the call because 'the washing machine was too loud'.

You see she isn't really interested in my life because when I get chatting about it she has to go or changes the subject (usually back to herself). Or she tries to make suggestions about how I should be mothering my son and I can't bear it. She can't just listen or ever praise me.

Yet I listen to all her family and health problems. This is why I just don't speak on the phone as much, it leaves me drained.

There is a thread with people talking about their difficult relationships with their mothers, but how they let their mothers have a relationship with their grandchildren for the sake of the GC. This made me feel so guilty as I am worried I am denying my DS my parents by distancing myself from them.

However I need that distance for my own sanity and protection, especially from my father. The truth is I really don't believe they are capable of being good grandparents either, so my DS isn't missing out.

Again guilt, guilt and more guilt.

oneplusone · 19/04/2009 22:44

Rose, I understand how you feel drained by your mother's phone calls. I used to have the same problem with my dad. He just used to drone on and on about his things and I felt obliged to polutely listen for ages. But afterwards I always felt drained and like I had been used as he was never interested in anything I had to say. With my mother there was never anything to talk about, other than the weather perhaps.

I understand your guilt about your DC's missing out on their grandparents. I used to feel a lot of guilt about this but for some reason I no longer do. Not sure why though.

PM, thank you for your kind words. It is in large part to many of you talking on here about how you saw your MIL's as mother substitutes that got me thinking about why I felt so angry with my MIL. I feel a lot calmer now about her. Although I still don't like her, she is definately toxic.

toomanystuffedbears · 19/04/2009 22:51

Oneplusone, so sorry for you about your mil situation. My mil always treated me like an alien from another planet, which hurt for years...until I realized I didn't really want a connection with her after all. As in: "be careful what you wish for". They call the house here, and I immediately hand the phone over. It wasn't until I was married to dh for 17 years, did fil attempt to "chat" with me. Mil never calls. Sil calls only when she wants something.

Would it be possible for you to fade into the background regarding the inlaws-and let dh maintain his relationship? It doesn't necessarily follow that you have to have a relationship with the inlaws-especially given the way you are treated.

It comes back into mind one of the sayings on this thread: One wouldn't put up with [it] from non-family members-so why would we put up with it from family?

I can also relate to having to figure everything out for myself-like reinventing the frigging wheel every single day.
That figured into my forgiving myself for being me-all that frustration at being me..."well, this is what I have to work with, so get on with my life with those parameters." "It is not a perfect world" is one of my mottos; also-
"I am an eclectic work in progress".

Go to go-
taxi service time.

oneplusone · 19/04/2009 23:34

I can also relate to the comments about our parents not being able to see us as adults. Mine were exactly like this. Even when i was twentysomething they always treated me like a child, like they had to keep an eye on me otherwise I would do something 'naughty' and I always had a feeling they simply had no trust in me.

Eg. as a teenager i noticed that many of my friends had a phone in their bedroom. So their parents trusted them enough to allow them to have their own phone (in the days before mobiles!) knowing they would use it responsibly and wouldn't run up a huge phone bill or be on the phone all night when they were supposed to be sleeping etc. I would have loved to have a phone in my bedroom but I knew not to even suggest it as my father would not even contemplate it as he saw me as irresponsible, untrustworthy, and undeserving of such a priviledge. The fact is I was a hard working, sensible girl, who always worked hard at school and did well, never got into trouble. But I realise now that he never actually could see me as I really was, he just saw his own projected image of me, which was probably entirely based on how he himself was seen by his own father when he was a child.

There are some really good letters on the 'April' Reader's Mail section on Alice Miller's website. I would really recommend you read them. I will try and do a link if i can.

oneplusone · 19/04/2009 23:35

Here's a link, hope it works.

www.alice-miller.com/readersmail_en.php

roseability · 20/04/2009 09:16

Oneplusone - The lack of trust and projected images is so true. My father still thinks he was justified in bullying me into sport as otherwise 'I would have ended up on the streets'. He thinks I was a terrible teenager even though I was normal and relatively well beahaved.

I do believe this was his projected image of me. That I was a rebel to be tamed through the hard discipline of sport. He had an abusive father and I believe messed up his life in the early years. He had wanted to be a great runner but believed he didn't get the backing.

This was all projected onto me so that he failed to see the 'real me'. A deeply sensitive girl who just needed to be loved a lot (who had spent the first few years of her life in and out of foster care with a schizophrenic mother). Who had creative talent in reading and writing which should have been nourished. Who actually never wanted to be a runner but did it to please her Daddy and desperately seek love and affection through it. But I didn't get it because he would just rage and sulk at me when I didn't run to his expectations.

I had a brief glance at those letters and they really triggered emotions for me so thanks for posting them

I suppose we just have to learn to smash that projected image we have internalised, like a big mirror into a thousand pieces. Learn to trust what we know is the real us and embrace that. Ultimately give ourselves the love and recognition that our awful parents never did.

oneplusone · 20/04/2009 10:11

tmsb, hi and thank you for your post and suggestions. I think I am getting to the point of not wanting a connection with MIL. Giving up on the idea that she will ever have my best interests in mind. I feel I have 'detached' myself from her in the same way I have had to detach myself from my old family. I read somewhere on this thread ages ago that somebody's therapist told them that detachment was the 'holy grail of therapy' and I really understand and believe that statement.

I think something happened last time I saw her, I almost felt myself detaching from her. I remember she was waffling on about something in her usual incoherent way and normally I just smile and nod and do my best to work out what on earth she is talking about. But this time i just said politely "I'm sorry but I have no idea what you're talking about" and I could see her face, she was taken aback. Then she tried again to say what she wanted to say and it still made no sense to me so I said again that I had no idea what she was talking about. Eventually she managed to explain herself but it was like I took back control. Instead of feeling or being made to feel like I was somehow stupid or ignorant for not understanding what she was saying as it has been in the past, I made it clear that she was making no sense at all and made her repeat herself until I understood what she was saying. It doesn't sound like much but in my mind I feel a shift in how I see her and relate to her. Her behaviour hasn't changed but my reaction to her has and this is the same thing that has happened with the rest of my family. I have stopped accepting their rubbish, none of them have changed in the slightest.

It's all about that common phrase, you can't change how other people behave, all you can do is change how you react to them. Sounds easy but I have found it a very hard thing to do in practise, it has actually taken quite a bit of courage on my part to change my usual way of reacting to all the toxic people around me.

Rose, I'm sorry to hear about how your father treated you. I was also pushed by my father into doing something that simply wasn't me, i can see now he was trying to achieve what he had always wanted but never managed to, through me and my sisters ie gain a professional qualification and achieve financial success. But i was unhappy in my career for the whole time i was working as it was just not suited to me or my personality or skills, i was only doing it because i had been pushed into it by my dad and i had not had the self confidence at the time to stand up to him and do what I really wanted to do as it would have meant going against his wishes. He would have made life very hard for me and not supported me in any way whatsoever and I just didn't have the confidence to go ahead on my own.

ActingNormal · 20/04/2009 12:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

smithfield · 20/04/2009 12:41

Have not been able to get on here for a bit.

Bop- wanted to say thank you for your post to me. I think you are right that there is a deeply buried level of pain that exists within our parents. It is totally inaccessible. I think may be it gets to a point when you have relied for so long on a way of being that there is no way back.
When I was in my early twenties/mid twenties I got this sudden feeling that I had changed somehow. That I had become harder, tougher and less kind and I remember feeling sad about it, but at the time I had no idea what the feeling meant. I put it down to a loss of innocence or loss of naivety.

I remember even writing a poem about it at the time and that writing showed how misguided I was about it all.

As a child I had no care for the pain which disappointments bare
For my mother would brush away all fears,
And my father would scold me if ?ere I pleased to follow where fallen angels tread.

This simply wasn?t true. My mother never brushed away my fears. She was often the cause of them. My father?s scoldings were often completely out of proportion and sometimes I was being attacked because he needed an outlet for his pure rage and anger.

Yet I had constructed this myth inside which I existed. That my parents control and rage was necessary to spare me from the disappointment and pain that life held.

I also wanted to say to you Bop that my Nan (mums mum) was one of nine children, but all 8 of her siblings died of childhood illnesses (they were very poor). One sister lived until she was 15 and when my Nan passed away in her 70s, my mum was going through her things and found this sister?s glasses, my Nan had never mentioned her sister much so it felt like there was so much sadness hidden in that little compartment carrying a pair of little girls glasses.
.
My Nan had also had a stillbirth, the child was named, and buried (it was a boy). Then my mum was born a short time after.
I guess I?m telling you this because I think there is a huge link between these kind of family traumas and losses that are kept hidden in closets gathering dust. Or hidden as it were in glass cases. But they seep out and they are the poison that is so destructive. May be when a child with great sensitivity is born into all of this that is when so much damage is done. The child soaks it all up and the rest of the family get to pretend all is well in the world.

I sometimes feel as if am having to mourn for several generations at a time.

Anyway what I?m saying is I guess it is not that unusual that when a child dies the one that lives pays the price. I think my Nan paid the price and so did my mother.

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