Our 5th visit to the Stately Home

[Nabster]

Here we go again.

I haven't even got to the point where I admit to myself that little girl was me.

Nabster - I can only echo what OPO says, it's a process you can only do yourself, your mother won't be the one to help you, sadly. It's very brave and honest of you to admit that you can't yet connect with being that little girl, that shows what a world of hurt is there - and I think that being on here shows that you do want to make that process happen. Am I right in thinking you are already in therapy? These things take time to get through, a long time sometimes. But every step counts, and you are taking steps, and that deserves respect and recognition. You have mine, anyway, fwiw.

Hello- is this the thread for people who have troubled relationships with their mothers?

OPO, i knwo it's a bit late, but just a couple of thoughts re MIL - I know from my experience with mine that sometimes I feel a rage with her that actually is more to do with my own mother, but because I do see MIL and don't see my mother it comes out at her. Sorry, all coming out a bit jumbled. My MIL is lovely in lots of ways and seems loving and warm, but can also be astonishingly rude, deeply insensitive and inconsiderate, and sometimes unnervingly cold. There is a coldness in her and it goes back to her own dysfunctional childhood that she has lived her life in cheerful denial about, and she won't change now. I got to the point once when visiting alone with DS (the first and last time) when she pushed me so far we actually had a blazing row, I just couldn't contain it any more (I have to say she shouted at me first!). What was surprising and that i wanted to share with you was how DH reacted. I was sure he'd be really pissed off with me that I'd upset his poor old mum, and yet he was strangely not that bothered in a way - and he adores her (though he finds her difficult too). And it occurred to me that maybe he was actually glad in some way that I got angry with her, because he's probably been angry with her for years and years but can't show it/acknowledge it really, so in a way I was getting angry for him. Just wondered if there might be any correlation there for you but it may be completely irrelevant!

We put things right fairly easily, to my surprise, and I realised that it's very different to things with my own parents - she can never hurt me like they did, however much she drives me mad - and she still does! Last time she stayed I left the house briefly and just vented big time on the phone to a friend who also has big MIL issues (fortunately it's fairly common), which made me and friend laugh quite a lot and got me through the weekend, so that's what I plan to do in the future too. Don't know if any of this is any use, but thought I'd get it down before the moment completely passes.

Bop whay you just said about your MIL is very interesting. MY inlaws are very well off and very generous. This used to terrify me because I thought they were trying to buy us, or at worst control us with their financial help. But I know that it was me projecting my own family's dysfunctional logic onto them. They have never tried to manipulate us, or put us down. They do not give with the expectation of complete compliance. They see helping each other out as a normal thing for families to do, and it is not done out of 'duty'.

My MIL sometimes says things I don't agree with or like, she is very deaf and talks for england and sometimes she says she doesn't like a piece of work I've made (and does not ince her words!), but other times she has bought pieces off me- she is someone I have learned I can take at face value, and I find her a great relief. My FIL is the same, a very lovely man who has sadly struggled with depression, which has sometimes made him a paranoid, and a major worrier, but never mean or unkind. He was hugely successful in his field of work- a true pioneer (something my parents have always been jealous of) and who sadly now has an unusual form of dementia. Their openness and enthusiasm, and desire to get behind and support their sons, their DIl's and their grandchildren's endeavours and interests is to their credit.

I used to see their support as a sign they thought I couldn't achieve on my own- my parents have always justified not giving me any support- in terms of praise, moral support or financial support by saying it was character building and would make me stand on my own feet. But I have realised that it's my parents who are selfish, and have let my IL's do their job to a large extent. (bearing in mind DH and I have been together since our late teens). The liberal, open minded input I recieved from them was a life-sver for me, I am in no doubt. But that did not stop me being very paranoid about them, fearing they were trying to control me-turning instead to the real manipulators, my true enemies - my family- who were only too happy to feed this paranoia for their own ends. Crazy.

Oh and anyone who is interested. You know I had arranged to see my mother this afternoon? Well she turned up an hour early, whilst we were still out, and left the DC's eatser presents on the doorstep and went shopping instead.

Thank you for all your congratulations all the cards I've been sent and congrats I have had on here this time round mean so much to me, unlike when DD1 was born and there was so much negativity about my decision...and cards from people I did not want to be related to or friends with!

SAKURA - Birth Skills by Juju Sundin get it off amazon. She's a physio and is very practical and deals with the whole of the birthing process and what is going on. Really really helped. Expensive at £15 but really changed me from being an 'epidural gal' to a 'natural birth' person...just because she is so encouraging...and its not hippyish at at all...men could read it and understand the logic behind it. Oh and okay...I did have an epidural...but knowing so much from the book I was able not to panic...I just knew exactly what was going on. And I read ALOT before birth of DD1...taught me things I did not know before.

Gotta go...I think DD2 possibly wants a feed..

Hi SweetestThing, It can be about mothers, but generally it is about toxic relationships involving family-especially parents/inlaws. (For me, it was my narcissistic middle sister.)
It helps so much because shared experiences validate our feelings and help us to see with a clarity never before available to us (because we were too busy just surviving) to get to the truth).

PM - lol at your MIL, mine too is quite deaf and talks for England - and has very strong opinions on absolutely everything, even things she knows absolutely nothing about, which she expects everyone else to agree with! OPO, I meant to say, I was really shocked at the octopus/tentacles thing - I can quite see why you couldn't take in that she had said it to begin with, and why it was so upsetting. An awful thing to say.

Oh and PM, what an update on your mother - sounds like arch manipulation. "you won't play ball on my terms, I'm not playing on yours." She's really playing games, given that you had an agreement. Doesn't like not being in control, I suspect. Hope you're ok. And glad to hear you're facing the clearout thing too - I managed to get two more bags to the charity shop this weekend, that's three this week, so am quite pleased with that. It is really hard going sometimes but sometimes easier, and it's bringing up a lot of feelings, and I know it's a really positive thing to do.

AN, I meant to say, I really loved reading what you wrote about doing things with your DD and bonding with her, it was a real joy. And I love your thinking of your DC as "human animals" - I know exactly what you mean, when we've been brought up to have to keep everything in and obey the rules, it's very hard, much as we want to be different, to do it really differently and allow a child to be a child. I have been shocked at how wound up I get about a mess being made (and I am NOT a perfect housewife, not by a very long shot!) for example, or how strong it is in me to try and prohibit and curtail things. In my case I think that comes partly from a pervasive feeling of unsafety, that I have to be monitoring him all the time or else great harm will come to him, because of all the unnatural, premature death in my family (not just my "sister, there's more), but whatever the cause, I find I'm starting to break out a bit more now, and your analogy is very helpful like that.

Roseability - interesting quote from Ingmar Bergman, and very interesting points you raise. I totally agree about the need to "downsize" our parents into the real, (very) flawed people they are, and the need to break out of our society's belief that mothers are ALWAYS the source of love and comfort and protection, your mother is always on your side, you can always trust her at the end of the day even if you have your disagreements - and so on. This myth is played out on just about every TV show/film/book ever; but as most of us on here know, it's a big fat lie, sadly. There are good mothers, and there are bad mothers.

The trouble is though that even though as an adult one can be very aware that one's parents are very flawed and not that powerful, to the child within us who was at their mercy for so long (and depended on them totally, and was indoctrinated by them) they ARE still mythological and over-sized! And it is the child within who is still crying out for their love, still fearing their abandonment, still convinced that they and only they can give us the love we need. And that child needs to be so taken care of and reassured and loved and protected - re-mothered, effectively - as that is the only way that on an emotional level we can eventually see them for who they are and see ourselves for who we are.

AN and OPO, my parents also failed to notice when things were wrong. Even on the very rare occasions I tried to tell them. Well, i tried to tell my mother - it never, ever, once occurred to me to go to my father for help or support - when he spent his whole life criticising me, ridiculing me or raging at me for my supposed "offences", why would I? Ditto elder brother, just a different shade of bullying. But my mother i did try and talk to once or twice and she pretended I hadn't said what I'd said, basically, or that what I'd said was happening wasn't really happening. So then she didn't have to deal with it. And I had to go on living with the everyday hell that I was asking her to rescue me from, but she could sleep soundly at night, because in her version of events, there was no problem. I think the phrase "turning a blind eye" sums up my mother's behaviour very well. If something was difficult or painful for her to see, she just didn't see it; so she could stand by and "watch" me going through agonies, watch me flounder, watch me stumble and fall again and again, and feel no need to intervene, no need to help, no need to take any responsibility for her part in the situation or my father's or my brother's because she was so good at pretending it just wasn't happening. Or, if it was - it didn't matter. Therapist says that a hugely important part of being a parent is protectiveness - and that was one of the things that was completely lacking. And that does matter.

Bop thank you. It's been a difficult week, really. I hav etried to compromise with her, to keep my fears at bay, and still she leaves me feeling rejected. And worse, my DC are placed at the centre of her manipulations. She left us a message, basically trying to push me to agree to a regular visit. It's daft because she keeps being too busy for us. She's away at my brothers next week. It's so much like when ym sis visits- she wants to see me, but makes it clear I am not a priority. I am so sick of it. I am tempted not to ring her again, I don't see why I should bother. I don't want her coming every week at whatver time she feels like so we are left waiting for her to degin to turn up,then be horrible and dismissive towards me. But still I feel rejected, stil I crave my mother- this, as you say, mythical figure. And so my internal conflict goes on.

When something bad happened to me she would either dismiss it as nothing, or find some way of making it my own fault, or make it about her- about her being put through hell by her daughter, yet again. So then I would get in trouble with my father and my siblings for causing mother upset. Sometimes it felt as if she would send me into situations where she knew I would be bullied, I don't know why. For instance, they boy who punched me- I was often sent there, and I was always bullied and she knew it. Did she just not care, or did she do it deliberately? I don't know.

Interesting new development, though. WE had a lovely day, playing in the communl green near our house, with another neighbour family. Lovely time. DD1 making mud pies, children palying happily together, adults chatting about nothing in particular, etc etc.
Then another family turned up. THe mother is one I used to see a lot of when our first children were babies. She always made me feel anxious and inept, but I would do as she asked- she would often ring me to say she was going to the park in 5 mins and expect me to jump- and of course I would. Seeing her today I could see how controlling and shouty she is. She treats my DS as if he's a thug or something (everyone else find him to be a very sweet boy) and she kept making snide comments about my parenting (I am naturally quite laid back). It was quite good, in a way, because it showed me how far I have come in just this short time and a few months of therapy- I could see this woman for who she was and did not let her get to me, make me doubt myself or my children. That was a real positive. It echoes with what other on here have said - In have strted finding the nice, kind friends, and seeing the toxic ones for who they are.

smithfield
Thank you for the comment regarding my shaping a life for myself. It meant a lot.
I wanted to respond to your post about your mother being in competition with you.
Mine wasn'T like this as such but she definitely took any achievement I had and believed I had only achieved it because of her. Any "bad" traits I had were because I was born bad, or from my father's side. ANy "good" traits I had i.e achievement were because of her, thanks to her, and the way she raised me. I could never win.
In one of her evil letters around my wedding she wrote "I even taught you FRench!" (A classic 'but we took you to stately homes' metaphor). Hmm, so how is it that I can speak french fluently, but my mother can'T speak it at all? Because of the blood and sweat that it took to learn the bloody language, thats how. She sat me down all of TWICE with a kids french book and pointed out a few words to me. I remember this clearly because it was one of the few times she interacted with me without screaming SO now, apparently, I owe all my linguistic skills to her .
I recently won a writing award and am getting published. I would never tell my mother this, because she would pat herself on the back about what a great mother she had been and how SHE had given me the chances in life etc. NEver mind the fact that I only discovered I could write AFTER I cut her out of my life!

Anyhow, I think the way forward is to just try to recognise these tendencies in ourselves. I don't feel jealous of my daughter's beauty or cleverness of joie de vivre, but sometimes I do get pangs. I had the strangest thought once. I was trying to teach myself to knit last year (of all things) and it struck me suddenly that I didn't want my daughter to know how to knit better than me because then I wouldn't be able to make things for her . Luckily I have the insight to recognise this totally irrational feeling and not act upon it. Of course she can knit if she wants! Of course I'll be pleased if it turns out she has a talent for it and I would try my utmost to supress any jealousy I felt. With time I believe that if another case of irrational jealousy strikes I'll be able to analyse it and not let it affect my relationship with DD. I don't think we have to feel ashamed or bad for feeling pangs of jealousy sometimes, but I think we have to try our damndest to behave ourselves and not act upon those irrational feelings or take them out on our kids.

Bop,
IT is interesting the way your husband reacted to your argument with your MIL. Mine automatically took his mother's side.
HOwever I've noticed some interesting things as time has gone on and I do sometimes get the feeling I am being used as a buffer between him and his mother's over-controlling, suffocating, domineering personality.
I won't see her anymore but DH takes DD every Sunday to his mothers. I use this time to read and write. Its suits us all. Strangely, last Sunday morning, I kept asking DH about taking DD (i wanted to write) and he kept sort of glossing over the subject. In the end we went out for brunch, did a bit of shopping, chilled out during DD's nap then went out for a meal in the evening. I realise that DH wanted to spend the Sunday with me and this desire (finally) overode any feelings of duty or obligation he felt towards his mother (and in Japan duty and obligation are HUGE parts of the culture). SO going to his mother's house was quietly shelved. I'M sure MIL will think thats its because I made demands on DH and I think thats what DH wants her to think. He wants her to believe tHat he didn't go to see her because of me. But I wouldn'T ever dream of manipulating him like that or putting the guilt on him to spend time with me. People are their own persons and are free to do what they like. Inside, though, I feel like I've won a quiet victory.

My mother said to me recently 'everything you are and everything you have done is because of us'

So does that include all my faults as well then? The fact that I self harmed and struggled with PND and anxiety?

No definately a case of 'all your success is ours and your failures are your own'.

Sakura - congratulations on your writing success. I recently did a creative writing course and I am trying to write a book about my birth mother. How did you get into writing?

Bop, not much time today as off to see MIL soon (am going to observe and take notes from the minute we step into the house) but I am amazed at how similar our experiences have been. The way you described your mother as turning a blind eye to what you were going through, standing by and watching you fall/stumble, well that's my mother exactly. And how you said you would NEVER even consider going to your dad with any of your problems, well me too. I would not even contemplate going to the person who bullied/abused/hated me for help; he had made it clear to me he didn't care about me or what happened to me so there was no way i would go to him about anything. I spent most of my time trying to avoid him and ignoring him, never talking to him.

And what your therapist said about a big part of the mother's role is to be protective, well I totally agree. It's something that in our so called civilised times we don't think about as children perhaps are not in the same danger as they would have hundreds or thousands of years ago. But I agree that, as with all other animals, i HUGE function of the mother is to protect her young and ensure their survival. My mother COMPLETELY failed to do this, she stood by and WATCHED whilst my dad terrorised me and then just carried on as if nothing had happened and expected me to do the same. Like your mother, my mother wrote me a letter about 6 months ago. In it she admitted she had been a coward all those years ago, but she said she should have stood up for herself a lot more. NO mention was made of the fact that she should have stood up for me. I just tore up her letter and threw it away, clearly nothing has changed, she is still only thinking about herself, not about me just like she has always done.

Sorry, have to go now, but thank you to everyone for your posts, i don't always respond to everything but i do read every word and take comfort from so much of what is said. xxx

I hope you don't mind me posting on here but this is the first time I've ever found people who share such similar experiences to my own.

My mother is only interested in the children that she has some control over. She has no such hold over me and hates it. One vivid memory I have is as a child of about 6 or 7. I had done something that she didn't like. I can't remember what but it was something like not eating all of my tea. She pulled me upstairs to my room and hit me repeatedly. The whole time she was shouting at me "Cry! Cry!" but I refused to. She was very open about the fact that most of the hitting was because I hadn't given her the satisfaction of crying rather than because of whatever it was I was supposed to have done.

She still tries to play these games now only without the hitting. She tries to engineer situations that will upset me so that she can get the reaction that she wants. She hates that I just shrug my shoulders and leave her to get on with it.

I think I could post an entire novel's worth about her tactics and behaviour but will leave it there for now.

Sakura, what you wrote about your parents seeing your achievements as being down to them and anything else as being your own fault is more proof of how crap parents seem to only see themselves and nobody else and it is all about them and only them.

God, I feel like this is me today (wanting to see only myself), I want the children to leave me alone so I can think about my own stuff and I am disgusted with myself for it. Can I use the excuse that everybody feels like this sometimes and that I'm not like it all the time only on my worst days?

There has been loads of stuff about inlaws on here lately and I feel pissed off with mine the last 2 days but I don't know how much is their fault and how much is down to my own problems colouring the way I see things.

My MIL likes to try to be in charge and I HATE being controlled. I see her as wanting to be the important one all the time when I want to be the important one! These are MY children and I didn't feel I had any importance in my life until I had my children. I see her as trying to take this away from me by trying to take over with my children.

My FIL keeps inferring that I am lazy and I know that I shouldn't care what he thinks but it really seems to touch a nerve and I find it hard to let it go. We were going for a walk with them and he said to me "It's about time you got some exercise". I said I get plenty during the week and he said "No you don't your children are at school and nursery". Well DS goes to nursery 2 days a week and DD is on Easter holiday at the moment and when she is at school I still have her before 8.45am and after 3.15pm. He seems to think that looking after them and doing the housework is too easy. DH often makes horrible little comments that infer this as well and I can see where he gets it from (his dad)!

Maybe I am seeing what he says as him saying that my job of looking after the children and doing the housework is not important and this is why it gets to me so much? I feel like he is trying to take away any feeling of importance that I feel as well! Before I had children it used to really wind me up that he belittled whatever job I had and said things like "What do you mean you have had a stressful day, you don't earn enough to have stress" (not like his son). It feels like everything I do and all my hard work and 'myself' is dismissed. I felt overlooked and dismissed as a child and I don't want to feel this now. Especially as a lot of the time I feel good seeing the in laws because they make me feel more 'parented' than my own parents but then I feel betrayed and disappointed when they say things like this. Do I need to not care how the in laws feel about me as well as my parents? To protect myself from how it makes me feel? Doing this would make me feel more alone.

I know I should find my sense of importance within myself and not need other people to 'praise' me or something but it is hard doing it all for yourself when you feel like nobody else thinks you are good. I want people to think I am good and I just don't feel that today. It is hard to feel you are any good when you don't feel like anyone else thinks you are.

I know I am full of self pity today and I don't care. I blame it on PMT although it is probably just me.

Sorry, me yet again. I sometimes feel like my self esteem is on a knife edge as one little comment from DH's dad or DH which infers that I don't work hard enough or something makes me feel like not bothering any more. This morning I was rushing to get a load of housework done before taking the children out and getting stressed because the kids were on at me all the time and I thought why am I bothering to work hard and get stressed when nobody will ever think I'm any good whatever I do. (I know DH would say I am overreacting or hormonal)

AN I am sending you a lovey. You sound veyr fed up.

NoNayNever your experience sounds awful. SOmetimes I think our mothers were/are so consumed by jealousy, rage, low seld esteem, whatever that they just became cruel and evindictive towards their children. Sounds simplistic but it just seems like that to me at times.

Was out today- therapy then the park with DCs and friends and their DCS. Had a lovely time. Got home to find sis had rang 3 times, no message. But it waqs late afternoon so too late to call her back (she lives in OZ). Next thing I get a text from her- must be about 4pm here.I reply-yes lovely wekend thanks, how about you? Fairly normal. Then a text but I'm bfeeding DD2 AND MAKING dcS TEA so think, I'll get that in a sec.
Then another text- basically saying she gives up, doesn't know what she doing wrong but she's not going to bother calling me ever again because I don't reply, even though she 'loves me dearly' (??) and I wasn't interested when she came over to visit. What cr*p. I offered her a bed and everything- she didn't want to know. I am so fed up of this. She will have been very drunk, wanting to offload. I am so weary of it all.

I just texted back that I'd been out for the day, had replied to her, and if she sends me another outburst like that I won't reply.

Was that ok? I am new to this sort of thing. Old me would have rung her up askign what wrong etc. etc.
She id reply, said it was hardly an outburst, that she was merely expressing her emotions at my lack of interest.
I din't reply to that. I went to play with my children instead.
Did I do right? I feel terrible.

Pinky, thank you, just those few kind words means a lot.

Your mother sounds like a 'nut'! How can you reason with a person like that! She seems really needy of your attention, like she needs you to look after her. But surely that is her job isn't it, to look after you?

It sounds like you said the 'proper' assertive things and sounds reasonable. Unfortunately though some people don't/won't understand 'reasonable' and relationships with them are very hard work!

Hope you are ok

Thanks AN. the calls today were from my sister. They are both as bad as each other IMO, it could easily have been my mother.

I am ok- ish.It just makes me feel so sad. I think they are all getting in a tizz because I am deciding when to speak to them- rather than just being availablewhen they want me to be, regardless of what I'm doing. The problem with answering my sis is that she will just go on and on regardless of what I'm doing- out for the day, working, looking after the children- she just keeps going on and on for HOURS. I owuldn't drean of answering the phone to her after midday our time becuase she will be very drunk by then.

apologies for my typing,I'm very tired.