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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Our 5th visit to the Stately Home

1000 replies

Nabster · 23/02/2009 10:59

Here we go again.

OP posts:
oneplusone · 09/04/2009 15:13

tmsb, thank you for your response, i wasn't expecting anyone to respond really, i just needed to vent, so thank you for reading and replying.

I know that i definately need to minimise contact with MIL, but that has an inevitable impact on DC's and i feel consumed with guilt. The only reason i do maintain contact is for their sake. If it was just me and DH, I would never agree to see her in a million years, i would most definately always have other plans if she came over.

Thank you for your in the moment suggestion I will definately try it. I feel scared at the thought of it though. I can just see the look on her face and i know she will be bitching behind my back to FIL, BIL, SIL the minute I'm gone. When once or twice i was quite short with her she started going on about her friend's daughter who 'always spoke to her nicely'. She of course doesn't have her as her MIL.

I was short with her because she kept wanting to know every detail about every appointment during my pregnancy with DS. I felt it was none of her business and i knew she was asking because she is a hypochondriac and is OBSESSED with doctors/hospitals/illness etc. If she's not going to the docs she is hugely interested in anyone that is. I bet if that friend's daughter had her as her MIL she would not speak to her so nicely all the time. God what a bitch, i hate her.

PinkyMinxy · 09/04/2009 15:27

LOts of great advice re MIL. She sounds VILE, oneplusone!
I used to get upset because my MIL clearly favours her other son and his partner aver us, but I know now it was just me seeing things from my own childhood perspective. She is not a bad person.

Had a row with DH today. I feel like he says things he knows will upset me- especially phraes he knows my mother uses. I feel like he ises it as a shorthand way of 'winning' an argument. But he just says I'm being paranoid. I am left wondering if I am being paranoid or is he messing with my head. I get quite anxious around him because he makes little comments about how I'm doing things which make me feel I am making a mess of things. Is it him or am I just being triggered? I dunno. But it's very difficult to handle.

ActingNormal · 09/04/2009 17:36

Sorry if I can't remember who said what today because I feel really tired. Somebody said about seeing things from their parents' side and feeling sorry for them and feeling like they should help them in some way. I sometimes feel pangs of guilt that I should be doing this too. The thing that made me go "Aha!" though was when you said had they ever felt that way about you - probably not! And they are supposed to be the parents trying to make us feel better not the other way round! Why should we worry about trying to help them when they never worried about trying to help us?! I'm going to type this sentence again because I feel it will make me feel clearer about things and less guilty:

Why should I worry about trying to help my parents to feel better when they never worried about trying to help me!

They failed to notice anything wrong ever when things were very wrong and didn't do anything even when I asked for help. I was thinking the other day about how even when there is something wrong but I am doing my best to act normal and not let people notice, DH notices and asks and asks me what is wrong until he gets it out of me! (I've just realised how much I should appreciate him for this when I've been quite moody with him this pm). If an 'insensitive oaf man' can do it why couldn't/didn't my parents?

Re MILs, I think they definitely feel competitive with DILs! We have taken their place as the most important one 'looking after' their sons and the main no. 1 mother (of their grandchildren). They don't feel so important anymore and if they have issues of wanting to feel more important anyway then they find it hard (I'm not saying this makes their bad behaviour ok though!). They want to feel they are better at those roles than you so they find lots of little things to criticise. It's nasty and it's selfish.

I think my MIL would also like 'better' for her son in some ways - eg a woman who makes his home cleaner/tidier, who irons everything not just his shirts etc. It is what she would do for him so she thinks I should do it the way she would. I can understand it (mostly, I think). I think (but don't know) that she felt I was taking advantage of him when I was doing a crap job of the housework because of my depression. She doesn't understand depression and thinks of it as patheticness. I'm better at it all now I am not depressed and it doesn't seem painfully hard work (to do anything at all). I'll still never keep my house as perfectly as hers though. I feel spending more time with the children is more important - they don't care if everything is perfect or not.

I've been thinking about lots of things I've done with the DCs lately and thinking back to my childhood. I only remember a handful of times when they actually did an 'activity' with me like I do with the DCs all the time. I was very bored a lot of the time. They didn't make any effort to get me to socialise with other children at all yet to me this has been an important thing I wanted to do for my DCs. They just seemed to do their own thing and we were just 'there'. I know this isn't terrible but it is another little thing that was a bit crap. They did do things for us like feed us healthily and keep us dressed adequately for the weather and make sure we were well educated but I just don't feel it was enough. I often feel I don't do enough for my DCs but I do MUCH more than they did!

ActingNormal · 09/04/2009 17:43

I think it was a mixture of Smithfield, Bop and Sakura who talked about feeling you have to help your parents, so thank yous! And anyone I've missed out who added to this. This has really helped me feel clearer and I bet you never knew it would help someone so much!

ActingNormal · 09/04/2009 18:05

Writing those posts I just realised why I felt SO crap towards DH this afternoon. He had today off but I had planned to take DD out in the morning to see her friends and do 'just girls' while DS was at nursery today so I still went. DH was happy to have some time on his own at home, so far so good, and said he would also do some DIY jobs that needed doing while we were out. We went out and I looked forward to coming home in the afternoon and spending time with DH and having some help with DD as I feel I've done ALL the childcare lately while DH has been so busy with work. He phoned while we were out to ask me to buy him some lunch and bring it home and I thought "Can't he even get his own lunch without me?" and he thought I would just leave in time to bring him lunch at lunchtime but the children weren't finished playing yet! When I said this he did a forlorn voice and I felt angry that I should have to feel guilty for not doing it! Anyway....sorry this is so long winded ....we got home and he hadn't done the DIY - that's ok - but he decided to start it and do it after we got home instead of spending time with us and helping me with DD!

Anyway, when I wrote in another post about just being 'there' while my parents did their own thing and didn't even seem to notice or care whether I was there or not I realised that this was how I felt with DH this afternoon!

oneplusone · 09/04/2009 18:46

tmsb, thank you again and i absolutely remember the advice re being a detached observer and taking notes around toxic ones. I need to remember to do that next time i see MIL. I have had an important realisation about her in that i do think there is a part of me that wants/sees her as nice and motherly towards me, as she is the only mother figure in my life really and so i am always completely caught off guard when she digs the knife in. It's as if she first reels me in with her initial niceness and then later on when my guard is down she makes her nasty comments.

The one about the octopus/tentacles caught me so off guard. She said it in such a nice way, all smiling and pleasant as if she was saying something nice to me that i remember i was smiling back at her and nodding and agreeing with what she was saying, until i realised what she had actually said. And then i was just speechless and gobsmacked and totally unable to respond appropriately ie "What on earth do you mean by that? How dare you say something so nasty to me. Get out of my house." (She was at our house on that occasion).

So, i need to be on guard from the first moment i am in contact with her until i/she leaves. That has been my downfall i suppose, i am not by nature a nasty, catty person, i just try to be nice and pleasant to everyone, and with her being my MIL i simply am never expecting her to come out with such nastiness, and totally unprovoked.

AN, i could have written your 5th paragragh above word for word. I do think MIL thinks i am not good enough for DH (not uncommon i know amongst MIL's, but still no excuse to be downright vindictive and nasty) and she also resents the fact that i have been so unable to do housework/cook etc due to my depression and health problems since having DD. Like you things are much better for me now too and now if something is not done it is because i have chosen not to do because i too would rather spend that time with the DC's.

MIL is completely different and to her, keeping up appearances at all costs is her only and biggest priority. I hate the way she makes me feel stressed out if i have not immediately done the washing up after a meal in my own home. I am not a complete slob, i will do the washing up, but i am far more relaxed about it and will do things in my own time...even the next day sometimes!

And i totally agree with your last para too. I feel exactly the same, my parents, mum in particular did nothing with me at all, she did lots with my sisters. I feel i don't do enough with my DC's, i should do more, but i do a whole lot more than my mother ever did. No wonder i was such a bookworm, it's a solo activity, entirely fitting me for as a child.

oneplusone · 09/04/2009 19:19

God, i so wish i had ordered MIL to get out of my house after the octopus comment. I am going to be (I really do hope) ready and waiting for her next comment and I am going to respond appropriately.

I am going to find it very hard though. Would be so much easier just to cut her out/run her over with a bus.

oneplusone · 09/04/2009 19:42

Sorry just a few more things. About 2 years ago i had a strange dream. I was in the garden with 2 snakes and i was trying to get away from them. I then managed to get into the house and away from 1 snake which was still in the garden. I was happy i had got away from one snake and didn't at first notice that i had gone into the house where the other snake had also gone. Anyway, this is all a bit long winded but basically i realised that in the dream the 2 snakes represented my mother and MIL. I got away from my mother (cut her off) and felt i had found a new mother in my MIL, not realising at the time that MIL was also a snake. But my subconscious must have realised, all her nasty comments had registered somewhere in my brain, and my dream was telling me that MIL was no better than my mother. I am amazed at the power of the mind that it can work like this, see things that I consciously did not become aware of until much later.

I also realise i have been trying to enlist DH to help me against his mother and to a degree he has stood up for me. But he is willing to forgive some of the nasty things she says even to him as she has looked after him all his life and done so much for him which she has. I suppose he needs to realise that I am not willing to forgive or forget anything his mother says to me, i don't owe her any debt of gratitude like he feels he does.

smithfield · 09/04/2009 20:32

Pinkyminxy- Could you say to your dh that when he says x and Y (wether it is intentional or not) it really affects you emotionally. That it reminds you of your childhood and brings up some really painful stuff. Say it when things are calm. And say you are sure he doesnt mean to do this but this is how it makes 'you' feel.
It really is about your feelings after all paranoia doesnt come into it. If he is doing something that clearly hurts you so intensely he should stop.

Just had a phonecall from my db and feel triggered. But it is starting to become on such a smaller scale than it used to. I only came to notice over the past few months how much his phonecalls affect me. My mood would plummet afterwards, although I would feel genuinely happy (almost joyful) that a member of my disfunctional family cared enough about me to call me.
The disapointment came from him mentioning my parents in passing as he lives so close to them so is always in contact. This was still very painful to hear tonight, so clearly still a huge amount of emotion attached to them and feelings of loss.
I think I also find this painful because it also highlights just how superficial our relationship is. Despite everything that has happened he has never asked anything about it or how I feel about it. My feelings as always are brushed away. swept under the carpet.
The other disapointment is his constant put downs draped in humour. Its funny because I used to react but Ive found that if I say nothing and change the subject this completely stalls him.
He likes to assert his superiority and does it by constantly talking or implying he has so much more than I do financially. He makes sure I know what he has paid for things and how well things are going for him at work etc.
When we were last down he went out on the day we arrived and bought a brand new VERY expensive car. This used to get me down a lot but I find it easier to be philosophical these days. I realise that he like myself is trying to fill a void.
He got a phonecall from my dad and his whole demeanor changed. It had changed because my other db had taken dad to visit the very expensive private school he is going to send his ds to (other dbs son is only two). He looked really glum and I realised how much he wanted to impress dad. I felt really sorry for him.
I think there was such little attention for us (any of us) we had to compete with each other just to get a few crumbs thrown our way.
I dont think db sees me as a particular threat and so he likes having me around but younger db and sis he is competing with them and I guess to be dismissed as no competition hurts too.

toomanystuffedbears · 09/04/2009 21:04

I had a dream last nignt-I am so tired I hardly ever dream anymore.

I had been watching Northanger Abbey and just ordered Mysteries of Udolpho...

You all know my mom passed on ages ago, but it was on a Good Friday and her funeral was on Easter Sunday. 29 years ago.

In the dream, she had died and we were going to the funeral home. It was difficult to negotiate the driveway-erosion on the sides-it would collapse any moment- overhanging limbs scratching the car. Very Gothic. The building was part ruin, on and on. So we go in, and oh, the hallway...well, anyway we make it to the viewing room and everyone is standing around. So I say to myself-I'll go look-and feel bold to be the first.

Her appearance was as a younger mom than when she died. But her head was thrown back at an ackward angle. Then her eyes were open and she moved! A big lurching motion like she was trying to sit up but couldn't. And my father had come up behind me and saw what happened. I was wisked away and many explanations were given and we knew she had died, but all I could say was "are we sure she is dead?-can you be sure before you bury her?"

Then I woke up.
I believe it is a never ending want-to want your mother or rather to want to be mothered properly (reach a certain quota then you shouldn't really need it anymore). I didn't have much grief for her because we didn't bond (for years I felt guilt because I couldn't tell her I loved her one time she was in the hospital). But now with the truth, do I want to grieve? Not so much for her, but for my loss, since I have a clear view of what my childhood was lacking. I think that is what the dream meant.

PinkyMinxy · 09/04/2009 21:23

Thanks smithfield. I try to talk to him about it but he gets defensive. He apologises but I know he will do it again. Today he said 'ooh poor pinky she's so persecuted', when I asked him to help me tidy up the DCs painting session so I could serve lunch, instead of just making comments about the mess and then leaving the room. He knows my mum teases me like this. It feels like he is doing it on purpose. We may be arguing about things but he always makes it about me. I feel like he pushes my buttons deliberately.I think he may have picked up on some of the habits of my family, and he may need to un-learn some of these ways. I really don't think he is a bad person.

And as regards your DB, I can very much relate. My siblings are all about money and status. They want to impress. They haven't realised yet that I am not after the same things in life that they are. One rather controlling, highly competitive mummy I know is always telling me that life is a competittion that has to be won, but I have said to her that she really needs to be sure she knows what the prize is, because not everyone wants what she wants.(She thinks I'm daft) Ask me what I want for my children and I will always say I want them to feel loved and to be happy. Unconditionally loved, that is.

BopTheAlien · 09/04/2009 21:56

It is indeed a never ending want to want to be mothered properly, that's a very good way of putting it, tmsb. I think I've only recently realised that emotionally I had no mothering at all in my childhood. Not from my mother, nor from any substitute mother figure (there weren't any). No wonder I was so needy. That point a few people have made (OPO, I think you were one?) about searching for a mother replacement in your female friends - yes. Check. And all the resulting power issues, abandonment issues, needs left unmet - jsut a big mess. impossible to let a friendship just be a friendship when you have this big screaming hole of need inside you.

I was round at a mummy friend's house yesterday, a little group meet up with our DC's, and the hostess had invited another friend of hers and that friend's mother who is staying with her. And they were so lovely. I ended up talking to the new friend's mum for a little while - she flies back and forth from where she lives all the time to see her DD and DGC, which is a round trip of 12,000 miles - on a regular basis - and she loves it, she couldn't dream of doing anything else because they are so important to her. She is obviously a massive support to her DD. She obviously loves her. As I was talking to her, I suddenly found myself thinking "I wish you were my mother" - and I had to really, really struggle to hold back the tears. Just the thought of it - I don't think I've ever even let myself imagine what it would be like before, to be mothered by someone really loving. It's a bit like trying to imagine what sight is like if you're blind, maybe. Of course I have the experience of love in my life now, with DH and DS, but they're different types of love. My therapist is about the only person I know I have felt mothered by and of course that's ultimately not a RL relationship in terms of someone you can pick up the phone to any time you want. Although she is there for me as much as she possibly can be. She's actually only a few years older than me but she is the closest thing I've got to a mother figure. And when I started working with her, the first thing she said practically was that I needed to learn how to mother myself, as I'd been so deeply abandoned. And maybe that's the only way of healing that tremendous lack - to be the mother to ourselves now, to our inner child/ren, that we would have wished for when we were really children. That's waht I've tried to do over these last years anyway, and it has worked and it does work, but the longing for someone else to be there for me in that way will maybe never go away, especially at the moment when I'm giving almost constantly, and it would be nice to have someone whose priority was to give to me. Not my mother, unfortunately!

oneplusone · 09/04/2009 22:20

Bop, your last post says it all for me. I cannot imagine how it must feel to have a mother who is there for you in every way possible. When you're a child to put a bandage on your knee, when you're a teenager to talk about boys/clothes (even if you disagree) when you're an adult and then a mother yourself. It ia how you describe, how a blind person would not truly be able to imagine how it would be to see. That is a perfect analogy. You are lucky in your therapist, mine is not at all motherly, in fact she is quite distant when i think about it. I need to find somebody else i think. So hard to start the search again.

Bop, thank you so much for putting into words how you felt, i have had moments like that too. I see other mums at DD's school with their mothers, and i find i seek out these grandmothers and talk to them. But i have never let myself imagine how it might have felt to have a different mother myself. I can't do it. I only know what i know, it is so hard to imagine anything different, growing up with an abundance of love; that's an alien concept to me.

PinkyMinxy · 09/04/2009 22:21

Bop I can relate to that. Thankfully my MIL is loving and kind, but it is not the same. I find these holiday periods very difficult as people are meeting up with family, gparents are taking their grandchildren on little trips/holidays. And my mum is just punishing me with silence for not being in when she rang me. It is always rejection. I have been feeling all week that I have done something really bad, that I should've phoned her before I went out (I know this wouldn't have worked- I would have been in trouble for waking her up, and anyway I would have been in trouble for having other plans- I cannot win),but FFS all I have actually done is not been in when she phoned. Not crime of the century, is it? But it eats at me. And she has not returned my call. This is my punishment.She will be waiting for me to call again, to come back into line. AARRRGH. I wonder how long it will be before she calls again. WHY DO I WANT HER TO CALL?? Why? So she can reject me all over again and again and again. Becuase I so desperately want to have a mother, a sister, a brother, a father? well I gave up on that a long time ago.It was easier with him because he was always rejecting and abusive- ther was no mixed message to give me hope. I suppose I can thank him for that.
But I agree. Every time somone mentions their happy childhood, or enjoying tiome with their family, it is like a knife in my heart. I feel the tears that have to be pushed down.

BopTheAlien · 10/04/2009 00:13

So, spurred on by the recent posts about clearing out, I'm on a mission to get rid of the things i have that my mother gave me. I find this incredibly hard - it's like I'm clinging onto the last vestiges of hope that she is in some way a real mother. I'm always terrified of throwing anything away, but find it exremely liberating when I do. It's like I go into real survival stuff - it's life or death whether I keep this hideous scarf she gave me or not. And given it's that hard with the things I don't even like, with the rare things where she's actually given me something that's quite nice, it's nigh on impossible. But, as I say, I'm on a mission; have already thrown out a book they gave me as a child, which I've clung to for years and years as "proof" they cared (unconsciously) (the wolves of willoughby chase, if anyone else read that - typical story of girls left in care of wicked governess and suffer terribly but lovely parents come home in the end and all is well, PAH!); and also some of the clothes she's givne me have found their way to the charity shop this week. There's a lot to get through.

Sakura, you posted a while back about how things came to a head with your mother and your wedding, and the control issue - it's kind of dawning on me now how much controlling there's always been from my mother too. AN, I think you wrote on this too. The thing is, because my parents made me so dysfunctional in every respect, including financially/work wise, I was always dependent on them to some extent. Which gave my motehr the opportunity to demonstrate her largesse on many occasions, giving me stuff, helping me out with money, sometimes in quite big ways. This has always been something I've felt really torn about, friends in the past have commented on what a "wonderful" mother she was for helping me like that, and I found it really hard to justify cutting her out of my life when she's been apparently so supportive. But - two things - one, if she'd looked after me properly and made sure I was able to function on my own as an adult (instead of the opposite - she and my father and brother made damn sure I was completely and utterly incapacitated) then I wouldn't have needed her help, and I would a million times rather have been self supporting (like my brother was, because HE was not trapped in the spider's web) than needing handouts from them. It was sickening to be reliant for help on the very people who'd left me so badly damaged, if that makes sense. Two - she ENJOYED being still in control in that way - it made her feel good, it made her feel like she really was a good mother and she didn't have to take anything I said really seriously, because she was BUYING me. As long as she paid for me, I was still a little girl without a voice and not an adult who has to be listened to. Is that a bit how it was for you, Sakura, and why you put your foot down and said no when it came to your wedding, and why she went so bonkers when you did? I think I'm only jsut starting to get it.

My mother is starting to go crazy now in her own way because she's losing control. I'm finally no longer dependent on her/them [albeit now I'm supported by DH, but he does value the job I'm doing in looking after DS, and lets me know it]- oh but that's anotehr thing, they got so many services from me for free over the years, I was unpaid counsellor, friend, dumpee, garbage muncher, emotional punch bag, and I made them NORMAL - they didn't have to live wiht the stigma of being the couple with one living child and one dead child, they could just be mr and mrs normal with their 2 children, which made their lives great - but not mine. they both used to say to me that they could talk to me about things they didn't talk to anyone esle about, not even each other. This was in between telling me how totally useless I was. ANYWAY, i digress. Now that she can't buy me, mother is getting antsy. She wrote to me again this week - I have asked her repeatedly not to write/phone etc - and to the untrained eye, the letter might look as though there were some serious goodwill involved. But I know better. She's suggested going to see my therapist together, but what she really wants is to find a way to get her and my father off the hook while getting me back in her life (and DH and DS, though she doesn't know DS, saw him once for 5 mins only). She wants to have a nice "normal" life again but WITHOUT having to admit just how much evil and darkness there is in that family. She thinks she can find a way to sneak in under the fence, and she will say (and has said) "yes, we were partly to blame, but you were partly to blame too". Or she will say, "yes it was all down to us", but then the next day she will start shouting at me again, and I know she's only said that in the first place to "get me back" but she's got no intention of actually follwoing through. It's like a man who won't commit and when the woman threatens to walk, he makes promises he has no intention of keeping once she's back by his side. Anyway, the whole tone of the letter is shockingly cold - nothing from the heart at all - yet signed "your loving mother" becasue she has to convince herself that's what she is. When we last had phone contact, last year, she went from pretending to be all conciliatory to trying to be bullying and controlling in a few weeks.

The good thing about the letter was it's a kind of barometer of how far I've come internally, and I could see from it that I have made progress - although it's a long way from waht I would like in my fantasies to hear from her, it's better than her out and out denial that there's even a problem. She's only shifted because I've shifted, internally. The bad thing was that once again she has ignored my wishes - I've asked her not to write because it destabilises me so much, and I was thinking about why today, cause I had a sort of delayed reaction to it that was at its worst today, and poor DS bore the brunt of it as usual when she has messed with my mind. The thing is, every time there's a letter from her, I can't stop the hope from rising, the hope that this time she's written to say "I've got it! I'm so sorry! We were so awful to you and you've suffered so badly because of us and now we're going to do everything we can to put things right!" And of course she's never written that (and logic tells me she's never going to write that). But once the hope is there, it brings up all the childhood stuff - I suppose it was a childhood hope that one day I would wake up and they would come in to me and say "everything's going to be allright from now on". And that it actually would be. And of course it never was. And so I dreamed of leaving home and things getting better, but when I did they got worse instead because they had crippled me so badly that i couldn't live, and all the feelings I'd never been able to fully feel as a child started to march to the surface and it just felt like I was going crazy for a long long time. And this went on for so long, and I tried so many avenues that purported to offer help, to offer the solution, and they were just not up to the job, or charlatans, or just bonkers themselves and so they all failed me too; so I had years upon years of layers of damage building up even as I was trying to repair the original damage - more failed relationships/friendships, more self-attack, more lack of everything, and the longer it goes on the more unlikely it seems that you will ever be able to enter the world of "normal" people and have any kind of reasonable life.

So when my mother writes to me, she triggers the absolutely helpless, totally vulnerable child who was me not just during my childhood but for all those years afterwards, and I fall back into believing that my life depends upon her, that only she can save me, that if she doesn't give me the love I crave from her, then i will die. Because at the primal level this is where we come from - if our parents don't love us, and don't look after us, we risk literally dying, and with the knowledge of my "sister"'s brief life, I was always all too aware of that. SO IT'S NOT SURPRISING THAT CONTACT WITH HER MAKES ME GO INTO A TAILSPIN OF ANXIETY AND FEAR AND PANIC that manifests itself as this horrible rage and shouting at DS (especially with the lack of sleep).... but at least today i did identify it after only a couple of hours or so, and now that I'm writing this I'm seeing so much more. I have to repeat some of this, it seems so important -
When we are children, our lives are literally in the hands of our parents.
If they don't love us, we risk physical death as well as emotional annihilation.
This is terrifying.
So their love seems like the one thing that stands between us and extinction.
So we grow up desperate for that love.
And even when we have tried our best to separate from them, whatever unresolved residuals of that fear and desperation are still in us are reactivated when they dangle the hope of that love in front of us, together with the threat of the denial of that love.

Maybe too many words, but never mind. I'm just getting that the craving for their love is so deep in me because it still seemed like the only thing that could save me for so long - because I was so very frightened that i was never going to be able to "grow up" and have a normal life. I was starting to have visions of myself as an aged spinster living alone in abject poverty, if I wasn't prematurely dead. But as I'm writing this I'm getting that - hello! I did it! I grew up, I got away, I did repair the damage enough to enter the world of normal people, and even though I still feel hugely at a disadvantage quite a lot of the time, I'm there. I saved myself. I'm breathing my own air now. And as therapist said this week, my job now is to integrate the work i've already done. Fuck it. I am a powerful woman. I have moved mountains. and I am a good mother to my son, no matter how bonkers they sometimes make me. And I want to start to recognise myself!!

As always, thanks to everyone on here, for making this thread such an amazing community. And thanks for prompting me to the chucking out of stuff and all that goes with it! xx

BopTheAlien · 10/04/2009 00:28

OPO and PM, cross posts - thank you for your words, and PM, well done for not phoning your mother - the feelings you are feeling are all from your childhood and that is why they are so intense, maybe you can mother yourself a bit? What would you say to one of your DC who was feeling abandoned and frightened and scared of punishment? Try and say that to yourself....

OPO, I know how hard it is to start over looking for a therapist. I think the ones I had before my "real" one were a reflection of where I was in my head before - I had to go through a whole process to get to having a therapist who was going to really help me sort things out. Does that make sense? It's really far too late now, i have totally binged on here tonight, as you will have seen. also have a story about MIL to share with you but have to be another time now, have GOT to get to bed! (DH out tonight, hence a bit more time for me to come on here )

roseability · 10/04/2009 11:48

Hi everyone

I was reading back through my journal this morning and found a quote/passage from Ingmar bergman. It is on the DVD of one of his famous films Wild Strawberries, where he talks about the inspriration behind the film. It struck such a chord with me, even made me cry that I wanted to share it. He had a terrible relationship with his parents and I think he had mental health problems as a result.

'I was feuding bitterly with my parents. I couldn't talk to my father and didn't even want to. Mother and I tried time and again for a temporary reconciliatation, but there were too many skeletons in our closet, too many poisonous misunderstandings. We were making the effort,since we so wanted peace between us, but we kept failing.

I was quite sure I had been an unwanted child, growing out of a cold womb, one whose birth resulted in a crisis, both physical and psychological.

Through Wild Strawberries I was pleading with my parents; see me, understand me, and-if possible - forgive me.

The driving force in Wild Strawberries, is therefore, a desperate attempt to justify myself to mthologically oversized parents who have turned away'

The poisonous misunderstandings and skeletons in the closet I can identify with, but the phrase that struck me most was 'mythologically oversized parents'. I do believe this is a barrier to healing from dysfunctional relationships and abuse. We have to let go of this 'myth' that parents are some kind of supreme beings that we have to love and cherish. We do indeed 'oversize' them and make them more important in our adult lives than they should be (and this includes MILs as well).

That is not to say I am denying the importance of a loving mother figure who sees us and understands us for who we are (as Ingmar Bergman so desperately wants) but more a realisation that mothers (and fathers) are human and can be severely flawed and fail miserably at this task, thus denying a child this basic human right and need. If they do fail we need to 'down size' them, see them for the flawed human beings that they are and stop seeking from them what they can't give. We need to break free of this societal myth that our mothers deserve our love and respect because they always embody the image of love, comfort and motherly instincts.

Ingmar Bergman talks about forgiveness. I absolutely agree with Susan Forward that one should not have to forgive parents for abuse. This can be more damaging. Heal and move on yes (even if this means cutting contact) but don't deny that little girl inside you who desperately wanted to be seen and understood.

Ingmar Bergman asks for forgiveness from his parents. To me this is tied up in the guilt that some of us feel. That we shouldn't feel this way about our parents. No - no one should seek forgiveness from abusive parents. As Atilla said guilt is a terribly destructive emotion at times.

roseability · 10/04/2009 11:58

Our parents might have covered the basics of survival i.e. food, warmth, shelter (and some don't even fulfill those needs) but humans need so much more. Indeed even some animals need more than just these basic requirements.

We need love, sympathy, understanding etc. This is why we are highly evolved beings. Mothers should be evolved to provide these higher needs.

Bop this ties in with your reference to the desperation within us when the hope of such love is dangled tantilisingly within our reach. But each time our parents fail.

roseability · 10/04/2009 12:02

Without realising it sometimes we have fulfilled these needs from elsewhere and although it can never truly be replaced we have enough to break the cycle. Thus we destroy this 'mythological image of oversized parents' who are the only ones that can save us.

oneplusone · 10/04/2009 14:12

I have just gone back and re-read the past few days posts and there is soooo much of value there in everything people have said. I do get a bit overwhelmed sometimes when there are a lot of new posts and so much i want to respond to, but my mind gets scrambled and things that occur to me whilst reading go out of my mind when i go to post.

But thank you to everyone who has offered advice/personal experience re MILs. I think i have been partially blinded into not fully seeing her as she is because she like everyone has many sides to her personality. She has been a good mother to DH and is a good grandma to my DC's and she seems to have been a good wife to her husband. Perhaps I am the only person in her close circle who gave off "kick me" vibes which her subconscious picked up on and so whilst she was nasty to me i could see her being ok with the others and so i wasn't expecting the attacks on me at all. I do think she probably does 'attack' others in her outer social circle and they, not being constrained in their response like I am because of DC's/DH do strike back. I know this because she complains about people being nasty to her at social gatherings and saying horrible things. I am sure they are simply reacting to her nasty verbal attacks on them but she is so unaware of herself that she seems to have no idea that she is being nasty.....or at least that is the impression she gives. I think she probably is aware of how nasty she is but the way she delivers her attacks is so subtle, it is very easy for her to later say she didn't mean it/was only joking/feign ignorance about the effect of what she said.

Anyway, i think now that finally my blinkers about her are completely off and I will no more be taken off guard by her initial niceness when meeting.

oneplusone · 10/04/2009 15:29

I just want to mention a book that I would recommend, unike my last one, called John Bowlby & Attachment Theory by Jeremy Holmes.

I am sure you will have heard of John Bowlby, the founding father of attachment theory. The book is a review of his work, I think JB wrote 3 huge volumes on attachment, seperation and loss and so far it is spot on. It is quite hard to read in places, there is a lot of jargon but I am ploughing through and finding it extremely interesting, enlightening and indeed comforting to know that what i experienced as a child and how i reacted and coped was not in some uniquely freakish way, (as i have always secretly suspected) but a 'normal' response to my type of parents.

And my type of parents seem to be quite common in dysfunctional families. My parents fall in the category "absent father/depressed mother". My father was present in the home as in he was physically there but he was not there as a father (more like a monster) and my mother, i am sure in hindsight was depressed, probably a combination of undiagnosed low level PND lingering for years after the birth of my youngest sister and due to being bullied/abused by my dad.

I have felt indifferent to both my parents for a long time, since i was a teenager. And the book describes this sort of response as being born of " the determination at all costs not to risk again the disappointment and resulting rages and longings which wanting someone very much and not getting them involves.....a policy of self protection against the slings and arrows of one's own turbulent feelings". I identified very much with that passage. I used indifference as a defence mechanism to avoid the pain and disappointment of being rejected time and again by my parents when i needed them.

AN it struck me when you wrote about your parents not even noticing that something was wrong when you were a child and even when you told them something was wrong they ignored you. My parents were the same, they were too self absorbed to notice when something was wrong in my world, although my mother always noticed if there was something wrong in connection with my sisters. But the difference between us is that from a very young age i simply stopped even going to my parents and telling them when something was wrong because i suppose the pain of being ignored/rejected by them was too much, even worse than it felt to cope with whatever problem i was having alone.

Nabster · 10/04/2009 15:54

I am wondering how I can resolve whatever feelings I have about my mother and what she did, when I never speak to her or see her and she doesn't think she has done anything wrong. I am sure she slags me off and plays the sympathy card as I am a terrible daughter who never sends cards for mothers day etc.

OP posts:
PinkyMinxy · 10/04/2009 21:20

Fab posts here today. Bop yes absolutely. sO much of what you write strikes a chord.

And I didn't ring her. But she rang me, tonight. She asked if we were booked up for the weekend and I said I was.. YAY I actually managed to sort of say no to her. She is popping over for an hour tomorrow to drop off the dc's easter gifts, which I am not looking forward to, but I thought it was a compromise for her. She was doing a bit of a wounded animal impression. But I feel quite good about myself.

Oneplusone- No way am I going to forgive my parents, or my siblings. No way. They have carried this on for the whole of my life.

But the giving parents too much power is spot on. My therapist said this to me the other week. And it is spot on. Veyr difficult to rebalance this situation, but they don't want us to have a life of our own- because we are only here to serve their needs, so of course we give them too much power.

I have 'becoming attached' and that is a very interesting book. It's funny but before I had DS I found myself naturally leaning towards attachment parenting- I am not fully AP but we do co-sleep quite a lot, and I carry my DC's in slings. (you should have seen how my mother responded to that lol). I just felt intuitively it was the way to go. Maybe I felt I had to make sure the bond and security I had not felt was there for my DC, but I didn't realise this at the time.

Good luck with the clearout, Bop. I have a lot more to do, as well. It is hard.

PinkyMinxy · 10/04/2009 21:37

sorry- rosability, that was you who talked about the forgivness- got mixed up there.

Nabtser- I don't know if this makes sense to you, but when I found out that my mother most likely has NPD, I made my first breakthrough in getting through this.Because then I could begin to grieve for the mother I have never and would never have.I could write her a letter, saying what she has done to me, but there would be little point in sendingit, in fact it would give her too much personal stuff to use. There is no way she will see her faults- she thinks she is fantastic with children, and once I could begin to give up the hope of having a normal relationnship with her, it took some of the guilt away, and it has made me stop seeking her approval- I cannot mend her, and it is not my job to do so. But I can try to mend myself- for my own and my DH and DCs sakes. HTHx

oneplusone · 10/04/2009 22:00

Nabster, you do not need anything from your mother in order to heal yourself. You do not need her to 'agree' that what happened to you actually did happen (she is very unlikely to do this), you do not need her to say sorry (again she is unlikely to do this).

You need to focus simply on yourself as a little girl, and bit by bit, discover and feel all the painful emotions you repressed because they were far too much for a little child to deal with.

Roseability, thank you for your post, I haven't seen that film, may seek it out. I do remember (I think) Alice Miller talking about Ingmar Bergman in one of her books, so I do know a bit about his childhood history.

The bit you quoted about growing out of a cold womb sent chivers down my spine. It is a good description of how my mother felt about me and sadly how i felt about DD for a long time, cold and detached.

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