Our 5th visit to the Stately Home

[Nabster]

Here we go again.

Now I am panicking that you all think I'm an attention-seeking loon.

Or I have upset you all.
I'm sorry.

I am so nervous about tomorrow. I am building it up in my head, I know. I just want it to be over already. I can't believe I have felt like this,or similar for every family event- christmas, birthdays etc, and yet I still go back for more.

Pinkyminky, why would we think that of you? Not at all. I wish you all the best for tomorrow, i can fully understand how anxious you must be feeling. You are braver than me as i have not attended any family events, including my own sister's wedding, because i simply could not face seeing my parents.

Maybe have a drink before you go? Sorry, i'm not much help. Good Luck. Come back and post when it's all over if you feel it would help. x

oneplusone - your comment about your mother having PND and not bonding with you struck a chord. Also about her being irritated and annoyed with you a lot.

A lot of women have PND and have problems bonding. Also we all have bad days when our children irritate and annoy us. However there is a line that can be crossed I think, when PND is not an excuse for abuse and neglect.

I suffered PND and although I have bonded dearly with my DS, I do sometimes get irritated with him about silly things. When he was first born, he had colic and cried a lot. Occasionally I lost it with him and was physically aggressive . I deeply regret those moments but my counsellor taught me to move on.

However I feel people who have had sad childhoods like us are more sensitive about how we parent. Maybe this is a good thing? I feel a big difference between me and my mother is that I feel guilty when I am a bad mummy and I admit I am wrong and apologise to my DS. I will continue this philosophy into his adult years. I do believe for every bad mum moment he gets a lot of praise, warmth, love and affection. I didn't have this and I hope it makes up for the times when I don't get it right. We have insight that our parents never did. We are not using our abuse as an excuse to treat our children badly but are trying to break the cycle.

Pinkyminxy - I do not think badly of you at all. I dread special occasions. I am already worried about Christmas. The last one was lovely because my parents didn't come. I lied and told them I was working. I can't bear the thought of them ruining this one. My DS is just getting to the age of really understanding the magic of it and we will have a new baby.

I didn't go to a couple of family weddings last year because they were there.

Thinking of you. Let us know how you get on

Thank you.

Rosability I tried to have a Christmas to ourselves one year but my sister guilted me out of it (why I let her manipulate me I have no idea- she lives on the other side of the world for goodness sake). mY therapist has suggested that in a year or two I may be able to just say 'no, because we don't want to', rather than coming up with excuses, but I am clearly a long way off from being there at the moment.

I agree with what you say about being a more sensitive parent. I was just saying to DH that in a strange sort of way being the scapegoat could be the best role- as at least we are still able to care about other people, and understand thier feelings, and accept that we are not always right. I would hate to be my sis or brother. I really think I have the happiest life of all of them, despite my problems.

I have sort of sidelined the mothers day issue because my son has chosen her a little plant gift, and we will leave it at that.

I will never forget my therapist saying 'you will get it wrong' i.e. part of parenting is getting it wrong.

I think I wanted to be a perfect mother, to make up for all my self doubt and low self esteem (caused by abuse). However it was an impossible standard to live up to and it made me sad and irritable.

My mother however seems to think that she is the perfect mother by virtue of giving birth!

Good luck tomorrow PinkyMinxy, thinking of you.

Roseability, agree with everything you're saying about parenting.

Want to reply to so much more stuff but soooo tired so I'll keep it short and sweet.

Absolutely. I wish I didn't get so anxious all the time, and that my self-esteem was somewhere above the floor. MY big worry is that my children will pick up on bhow hard I am on myself when I fail, and they will feel the same.

My mother and father also consider themselves to be fabulous parents. My mother claims to understand child psychology. It is hideous.

oneplusone - I too have a deep anxiety about my DS feeling the same way about me that I feel about my mother.

Pinkyminxy - Mother's day is very difficult in these situations. I have sent a very plain card with 'to' and 'from'. No sentiments expressed. I feel a bit petty, that I should just not bother and stick to my guns. I suppose I am still scared of her

Goodnight thanks for posts. I needed it tonight!

Oneplusone let me know if that book is any good.

vonsudenfed, meant to respond to you last night as well. I am sorry you have gone through similar to me, it is very painful and all the harder because it is so hard to describe and pinpoint. But at the same time i feel comforted in knowing i am not alone in all of this.

I have got the book and have read up to chapter 5. It is painful reading, but i recognise so much of what is mentioned. It is all the more paiful as i also recognise that what happened to me as a child has to a degree been repeated with my DC's, well largely with DD. So I am reading the book on 2 levels, in relation to myself as a child and also in relation to myself as a mother to my own DC's. It is the first book i have read that is solely devoted to emotional abuse/deprivation as all the other books also talk a lot about physical and sexual abuse both of which i thankfully was not subjected to. Although i did feel physically threatened many times and i did witness my dad hitting my mother a few times and also my sisters.

Whilst it is painful reading, I also feel a sense of relief that somebody ie the book's author recognises the nature and impact of emotional abuse/deprivation. However the book is largely aimed at social workers etc so is quite clinical so far. But still, not difficult to read.

I will continue reading and report back!

Hi everyone

PinkyMinxy, hope its all gone ok for you. Let us know how you are x

Oneplusone - 2 of your posts - 12.37 and 12.47 on Friday I could have written word for worsd. Good to know others feel the same (although obviously not good that they're having to go through it).

Since I last wrote I have had no real contact with parents apart from a couple of emails.

My DP has been seeing them though as he has been taking DD to see them. My Dad has spoken to him about things mainly saying how much he wants to sort this out and how much he wants us to talk. I appreciate that he cares enough to say this but just don't feel ready yet.

DP saw him yesterday and my Dad said to him that my Mum is so upset she can't sleep at night and is having to have nightnurse or wine to be able to. He must have known DP would tell me this and I can't help but feel - bugger off with the emotional blackmail!

Also my Dad keeps asking me about them having DD every Wed night Thurs day again (I've stopped it and DD is going to nursery instead). Everytime he brings it up it annoys me as it was my mum's constant 'Why doesn't she just move in here' comments that made me stop that in the first place.

I felt terrible the first week of no contact but this week I have felt strangely 'ok'. My OCD and general anxiety levels seem to be down. Its nice not to be criticised all the time. On that note, DD wanted to wear a big Disney dress to my parents yesterday, I knew she'd be playing in the garden but didn't care because a. she wanted to wear it and b. dresses wash. My DP came back and told me how there had been lots of debate between my parents about how 'she can't wear that in the garden, she'll ruin it' and how they kept trying to find her alternate clothing. My DP just said to them (x100 times), she's fine in it and eventually they gave up.

I know this sounds petty but it says to me THEY'RE NOT EXACTLY LEARNING!! Shes my DD, I obviously knew what she was wearing when she went over there and was therefore fine with it, my DP said it was fine so why can't they just leave alone?? Sorry, I know its petty in the grand scheme of things x

What the therapist said today, just in case it helps anyone...

She said I was still seeing things in black and white terms and 'good' vs 'bad' parents. She said thats not helpful, that I need to see the relationship with my parents as flawed and broken by the different personalities involved but that looking to blame wasn't going to help (that's me screwed then )

She said I was very angry (justifiably so) by the things that had happened in the past and that I'd built up lots of defensives, one of which was this anger. She said underneath the anger was hurt and I need to look at that and work through it to help with my anger.

She said I came across as quite hard and defensive and that really I'm very vulnerable inside but I won't let myself be.

This is very true, everyone I know thinks I'm hard whereas in truth I'm a total softie inside.

She said that when my Dad said they'd do whatever it took to sort this out and I started crying, he'd given me what I needed - ie he'd understood the pain and tried to say they'd help sort it. However, when I had the conversation with my mum, she'd just attacked and I attacked back and felt even more hurt and anger and rejection.

Worryingly I'm very like my mum, I can be lovely one minute and horrible another, especially if I feel I'm being attacked or abandoned. I have total panic attacks if my DP even wants to go to the pub one night with his mates, thinking he'll meet someone 'decent' and 'not ugly' and capable of having fun rather than boringly banging on about her parents all the time...

Anyway, thats the gist of what she said, although how I'm supposed to 'open up the hurt' or whatever she said I don't know. I always feel a bit of a disappointment to her because I don't cry in therapy sessions. See, I worry about upsetting everyone, her as my therapist and now you lot as I've rambled on for so long. x

Hi all. Just a (hopefully) quick post as i need to get some things off my mind.

Spoke to my middle sister on friday. She called me but only because i was going to call her and she said she'd call me when she was free as she was working. She told me she was pregnant (with her first). She said she had just had the 12 week scan and that neither set of parents had been told but she had told our youngest sister. I immediately felt upset that I had been told after our youngest sister. I know one of us has to be second to find out but why does it have to be me? I think i always knew when she fell pregnant that i wouldn't be the first to know. It really hurt me as when she has had problems in the past eg with boyfriends etc she has always come to talk to me saying our youngest sister was too busy with her own life to have any time for her.

But when it comes to something like this she tells me second. And i also feel upset that she probably told my youngest sister ages ago as she is already 12 weeks. I feel like an outsider as i thought, rightly or wrongly that most people tell their close family that they are pregnant quite early on after they find out themselves and tell the rest of the 'general public' around the 12 week mark when you are thought to be past the most risky possible miscarriage stage. So i feel in her eyes i am simply a member of the general public instead of her sister, who she is quite happy to turn to when she has problems but only because our youngest sister has no time for her but when it's some good news i come second.

And if i hadn't said i was going to call her on friday myself i don't know if she would have called me anyway and if not when would she have called me and told me her news?

I know i should probably just avoid contact with my sisters as i can see that nearly every time there is any contact i am left feeling upset and hurt. But I just can't seem to do it. I suppose perhaps that ultimately i realise my sisters are toxic but not as toxic as my parents. Not bad enough to justify cutting them off as whilst there are benefits to doing that there is also a price to be paid and in relation to my sisters i don't feel, yet, that the benefits of cutting them off outweigh the cost. Whereas in relation to my parents the benefits far outweigh the cost of cutting them out.

Another thing that is bothering me for reasons which is simply cannot fathom is the following: my youngest sister married into a very wealthy family and when she had her first child last year she went private for all her ante natal care and the birth. I knew that when my middle sister fell pregnant she would be desperate not to be 'outdone' by my youngest sister and that she would want to try and go private as well for the birth and ante natal care etc. But middle sister most definately cannot afford it, as she is married to a student and her DH will be a student for the next 3 years. But all her life i have watched my middle sister tag along behind my youngest sister, always trying to copy everything she did. It was strange to watch as usually it would be a younger sibling tagging along behind an older one and trying to do everything they did.

Anyway, I asked my middle sister which hospital she had been going to and so far she has been going to her local NHS hospital. But then she told me that she has managed to find and take out some sort of insurance which is actually meant for british people living abroad, which will pay for her to have a private birth. She is basically committing insurance fraud due to her absolute desperation to have a private birth like my youngest sister.

She of course will never admit that the only reason she wants to go private is because she is copying our youngest sister, she is trying to make out that it is because the NHS is so terrible and I suppose not good enough for her.

I had both my DC's at NHS hospitals and whilst the first one where i had DD was pretty awful the second (different) one where i had DS was absolutely fantastic. I almost feel like she is saying that the NHS is ok for the likes of myself but not for her. ie she is worth more than that. Never mind the fact she can't actually afford and is defrauding an insurance company to get the private birth she so desperately wants. My youngest sister can afford it very comfortably and so i was not surprised in the least when she told me she was going private. And i suppose i was waiting to see how my middle sister would get around this seemingly insurmountable hurdle in terms of finding the money to go private. I never in a million years thought she would go to such lengths to get what she wanted.

I just can't stop thinking about it all and yet i have no idea why it is bothering me so much. It is definately nothing to do with the fact that both my sisters may end up with private births and i was on the NHS, that absolutely doesn't bother me, i was perfectly happy with my care and DH and I are comfortably off and DS was born nearly 3 years ago and so births and hospitals are long forgotten for me now.

I know it is more to do with the fact that my middle sister just cannot seem to think independently and do her own thing, do what is best for her and her situation. Instead all she ever seems to do is try and copy my youngest sister in everything, even when she simply cannot keep up comfortably and easily. Perhaps i am jealous and hurt and feeling left out that my middle sister only seems to notice and copy my youngest sister and i don't seem to even feature on her radar.

It certainly doesn't feel like we are 3 sisters, more like 2 sisters and I am just some sort of stranger who has been tagged onto the family but who has never really been taken in and accepted as a real family member.

And my middle sister also is quite happy to criticise the area where i live and make out that where she and youngest sister live is far superior. Again youngest sister got married first and chose the area where they live because it was near to her DH's family. But the only reason middle sister also chose to live there once she got married was purely and simply because youngest sister was there. There was no reason her her to live there and again it's an area that she can't really afford and so she has a rather shabby place there as opposed to my youngest sister's beautiful apartment.

I suppose middle sister's constant tagging along behind youngest sister may be triggering memories for me from when we were younger when exactly the same thing was happening and i used to feel really excluded and left out. I just didn't seem to feature in their world, i was a completely seperate, unconnected person with whom they had nothing in common. They always did loads of things together, i was always on the outside. But it was always my middle sister who seemed to be consciously excluding me and ganging up with my youngest sister and leaving me out.

I guess in a less obvious way she is still doing the same thing. She and youngest sister have private births, i have the NHS. It's a ridiculous dividing line but nevertheless it is a dividing line just the same as there was when we were children. Me alone on one side and my sisters togther on the other side.

Am sorry for rambling on so long but writing all this out has helped me work out why this whole thing was upsetting me so much. Thanks to anyone who has read so far.

Hi all,

Anyone read the "Mummy Dearest" article (p24) in the Daily Express magazine today?.

My parents are both disinterested more than anythign else but even so I could not bring myself to do what Georgina Harris suggests:-

She writes, "From my research I would say its best to give up on truly awful parents as adequate people. Always remember they have just as much right to be ghastly as the nutter on the bus, and that the fact they had you is a coincidence (and your bad luck, not theirs). So use fun - a theatre trip, afternoon tea out - to divert from the business of a serious relationship.

She also writes, "Your Mother may not be able to produce the solid, loving support you've always wanted, so, to avoid guilt and to have something nice between you, fill the gap between what should be and what is with everyday niceness and treats - enjoyable, but most of all, deliciously impersonal. Fun is impersonal - happiness isn't. You may not be able to achieve happy, but fun is a pretty good second best for both of you".

Would be interested to read your opinions on the article and the above. I think what she writes is way off and excuses such behaviours especially from my own readings.

Attila x

I suppose also my middle sister trying to justify her insurance fraud by saying the NHS is so rubbish and not good enough for her is a subtle put down for me. I used the NHS because i am inferior to her. She is far superior and the likes of the NHS are simply not good enough for her.

When my youngest sister told me she was going private she didn't feel any need to criticise the NHS and say it wasn't good enough for her. She simply said she was going private and she and I both know she can afford it comfortably and i was perfectly happy for her that she was doing that. My miodle sister i am sure harbours a lot of jealousy for my youngest sister as well. I don't feel any jealousy at all, I am very happy and grateful for all i have, i don't really go without anything i want or need.

I still don't feel i have got quite to the bottom of why this mad NHS/private situation with my middle sister is bothering me so much. I know it will be on my mind til i work it out.

Hi oneplusone,

Maybe your Middle Sister is narcissistic.

What you have described is very similar to what my NPD BIL has said. He has shunned the NHS saying that its "no good" either whilst going for expensive private treatment which has done him no favours at all, it certainly hasn't cured him. I feel he is being conned but he won't have it any other way because he sees the NHS as inferior.
BTW he does not work either so who is going to foot the ever increasing bill for his trips?. As the country he has gone to for treatment does not have a reciprocal NHS arrangement with the UK he is fully liable for paying up.

Would not tie yourself up in knots re middle sis, she's not worth your time honestly. BTW too jealousy and low self esteem go hand in hand. Think your parents as well have an awful lot to answer for.

And if anyone happens to read the Daily Mail magazine article about Mothers I would also be interested to read your opinion.

MN was mentioned in the course of the article and so has the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread title (not any postings related to that thread). I was not best pleased to say the least.

I went on line to have a look after your post and I have emailed them, AtM.

infrequent visit back ((sorry for not coming much. I try and hide from mother thoughts most of the time!)).

does anyone else feel heartsick on days like this??

I really really hate mothers day

I feel quite low today. have tried to hide it for my DS sake, although he is only 3

Atilla - could you post link to the DM article on mothers? Very interested as my mother reads DM!

I just told DH I really hate Mothers Day and felt quite how much it bothered me.