How do you know when it's over?

[geisha]

Outside of abusive or unfaithful marriages - how do you know when it's time to stop trying?

Lilac21, did you see a collaborative law solicitor. I am not 100% sure about the terminology. There is (apparently) a newer type of solicitor being entered into the family law part of divorce.

The suggestions that the solicitor made sound helpful in some ways, but I can spot possible legal problems already. For example, what happens if the man brings another woman into the house? There isn't a law about that and I can expect the situation to be a bit uncomfortable. 2 years might then feel like a very enduring time. The other possible problem, if the man gets a bit intimidating a=or aggressive, if you call the police, him living in the same house can cause some difficulty, more so if he denies the allegation.

Obviously you know your ex better so you are more aware of what he might do or not do.

Thanks N1, but I am 100% certain those things won't happen...I may not like him much but I know him pretty well! I'm not saying living in the same house will be easy, but if he can't stand it he's free to leave...I can't afford to buy on my own and rent would eat up half of my take-home pay, he's on about 100k a year with bonuses and could rent if he had to.

Wish he was my ex already...then all this would be behind me. We should invent a new acronym for the-man-I'm-married-to-but-don't-love-and-don't-want-to-live-with!

Well done Lilac, on taking those first few steps.

It must make you feel better to know that you are doing something about it.

Hope things work out for you all.

Life is too short to be unhappy.

One day we will all look back and wonder why we put up with the shit that we have.

I also experience some of these feelings, I could have written the same as "veryembarrassedmummy" (and some others!).

I love being at home until he comes home, he just makes things difficult purely by being there somehow. The house runs smoothly until he is around and then it becomes chaos. It makes me feel irritated and angry but I dont know why??

Very embarrassed mummy - how the flip have you coped for 25 years?? Do you feel sad? I feel sad as we've been this way for about 2 years (although prob gradually over 4 years) and its tiring and draining.

I too am scared witless about wrecking my children's lives, I have too worried about finding someone else, how that would affect my DC's, how it would affect things if he was to find someone else, if he had a child by someone else, changing my DC's dynamics, etc, I have thought about lots of things and we are not even split up, so lots of confusion going on in my head.

By the same token, I am scared silly of living this way for months, let alone any more years, I really feel for you

We get along fine, so do we continue "co-existing" as we are, so nothing changes, except we both feel miserable and unhappy 70% of the time?!?!?! Its a shitty way to feel

SammyK wrote
"I was all set to leave a little while ago, and we are giving it another go after I laid my cards on the table again, but I have a few of the things in this thread, and TBH feel like my heart isnt in it anymore, I feel so detached.

Another thing I have, is I have developed an innapropriate crush, and when I think of this person my heart flutters, I smile, etc. Don't think like this with my partner anymore. Crush isn't helping.
"

I have a wonderful OH, who thinks the world of me and our kids but i just cant rekindle the feelings i had for him. I feel so bad even writing this and had to namechange cos he lurks on mn.

I too have developed an unhealthy crush with a guy at work who just has to smile at me to make me go wobbly.

I have fantasies of my oh telling me he has met someone else, just so i dont have to be the bad guy. I really dont want to deal with the fallout but i just dont know what to do. He'd love us to get married but the idea fills me with dread and i keep saying that we are fine as we are. I feel like i'm just stuck here

Well DP just left me for another woman, but I could have written many of these posts. Yes its painful when they leave, but you get through it. I will, and DD and will be happier for it.

Fizzfiend - thank you for your thoughts!!! I have contemplated a lover (was shot down in flames on another thread) but am feeling very insecure because I am not sure if he is in the same "space" as me. I know he has "feelings" for me. Also our situations are very different - he is loads younger (too young but heck I like him) and "just" has a girlfriend who he is clearly not in love with. A bonking partner maybe?

I have talked at (very painful) length to hubby about how I want to have freedom in our marriage and how I want to experience other relationships (well, just one other one at the moment, but obviously that could end up being a one night wonder!!). I have to be honest, even if the current crush went nowhere at all, I would want to have another relationship outside the marriage.

I feel that to break up our domestic set-up which is very comfortable indeed - nice house, lovely children, financially secure, "just because" I am not "in love" with hubby is very selfish. Plus hubby is an old friend and has stuck the course with me - how many friends actually stick around and are loyal?? We get on well - I just wish we could have a brother/sister or best friends relationship. He is starting to get his head around how I feel. He says he has no interest in other women at all and is in love with me. However, he does understand (I think) where I am coming from (I had a crappy father and messed up teenage years so a few insecurity issues to deal with).
Phew - where will this all go? Who knows.
I am hoping we can, in time, work towards a "co-parenting" type of relationship with us both living in the same house but not necessarily in the same bed (certainly would have to change sleeping arrangements if I started seeing someone else - I just don't think I could handled that juggling two at a time gig....I'm a terrible liar and would end up calling them the wrong names....!)

I read an article about women and divorce recently - the women don't want another realtionship, or even a new lover, they just want their lives back. That's how I feel too. My dh is the sort of 'catch' we are all told to make, he's thoughtful, sincere, loves me, is a good earner etc. But after 20 years, I want to be myself. And like others on here, I am fine until he comes home. Then my heart sinks, my mood blackens and I have to stay out of the way.

I'd like to give co-parenting a go, we have a big enough house,and it's not fair for him to move out and lose the kids/house/garden etc just cos I want to split. But he wont. He wants all or nothing, to stay and try to make it work, or to move out altogether.

Another great quote from an article the other day on women and divorce - ' now darling all you need is a handyman and a lover!'.

I want my life back too.

My initial thought was to think, once in a relationship, you are in for life. the commitment is to the other because that's what you intended doing at the start.

So, I asked myself - could I restrict the other half if they were unhappy, my obvious answer would be that I wouldn't want to make anyone unhappy. By restricting the other, the unhappiness would grow and eventually over spill onto me.

Honesty and openness is one of the strong keys to having a good relationship. By speaking to the other half, the issue has been raised. It's not a question of asking permission, it's exposing a problem and looking for the best solution before anyone takes a step in the wrong direction.

Neither half should feel betrayed because the issue is in the open and is being thought through. If one half has a better idea, now is the time to present it. Presumably there is no rush.

I wonder if it's worth negotiating a time span of freedom, say 6 months, and then have a rethink about how good or bad it is to have the freedom on a longer term.

Obviously one of the halves is not going to be ecstatically happy, but if agreements are reached and both can see a way to make the 6 months work, then the freedom experience might show you what you did or didn't want to see. Sometimes a taste of something you haven't tried doesn't taste so good after biting into it.

OP, you have a very understanding other half!!

Do you find you're up and down with it?I have worked hard at it for years, supported him, been the source of social life, instigated the talks about the problems..he has sexomnia amongst other things. I now think he's the second child the relationship didn't have room for. He's leant on me as the dominant one. Have taught him about stuff as basic as flossing and kitchen hygiene. He can't instigate affection..it's down to me to be bubbly and faux demanding. Others seem to like him as kind, he cooks willingly and does childcare happily. He's ageing really badly, has to be asked not to masturbate next to me. Doesn't know that he's groped me, snores like a train...sigh. I do my best to look for the good stuff. It started because he was gorgeous and I was drinking and drugging far too much..and heart broken...and didn't want to be with someone who might leave me. I've felt a bit broken over the last few years (eight years of this!) and seem to have lost most of my friendships...too sensitive and no resilience, not sure if it's related or I've just gone a bit mad We share similar ethics, like the work he does, think of myself as the picture not the frame and baby comes first and family...but my god isn't nuclear just a f**k up really...must be a better way of doing it! Like now, he's sat behind me buried in yet another book and I'm desperate to go out and sit in front of a fire and have a beer and a giggle..oops beginning to feel sorry for myself, shall stop now! I posted a letter to Relate today asking for financial assistance for counselling, it's my first teeny brave step to trying to sort out were mad mummy and crap relationship meet. I have been happier than this.

i knew it was over and no more trying when i realised i actually HATED him, never mind LOVE my exdp. i actually realised middle of an arguement when it sort of spilled out. and he asked if it was true.

and it was like a weight off my shoulder when i said yes.

Update - I asked him about transferring the house into joint names and he was instantly on his guard, said he'd put a stop to that process as soon as I first mentioned an eventual separation. So no go there - but maybe he doesn't realise I'm still entitled to a share, apparently the settlement would be a 50/50 split although that can be renegotiated. If I have the children with me (which is certain) I may get more than 50% for their sake. I don't want a profit, I don't want this house, just a roof over our heads that's not costing me all of my income.

So we moved on to the next step in the discussion - separate bedrooms. He refused to agree, said he still won't tell anyone about our situation, it's no-one else's business, and refused to discuss it further. Left the room, then reappeared ten minutes later and I asked if I had a 'boyfriend'. No, I said, I just don't want to share a room and a bed any more.

He says he doesn't want the children to know, I am being selfish and don't I know he loves them too much to hurt them. I know he has a point but I said 'Are you happy living with me?' and he said he has accepted the situation.

Since I haven't, I guess it's down to me to change it. Not sure what the next step is right now...

frame not the picture I mean. Didn't Nigella Lawson say that, need to improve my cultural references! Admire strength to admit hating. My plan is to make the rest of my life so big the bit with him in it doesn't matter so much...and then maybe will have the strength to move on/think it's the right thing for all of us. Feel for the point about restricting someone, conversely must be wonderful to know you make someone happy, that you are good for them.

Mediation lawyers or family mediation services are a good way to go if most financial and childcare issues have the potential to be agreed amicably. A third party versed in the law is invaluable.

"So, I asked myself - could I restrict the other half if they were unhappy, my obvious answer would be that I wouldn't want to make anyone unhappy. By restricting the other, the unhappiness would grow and eventually over spill onto me.

Honesty and openness is one of the strong keys to having a good relationship. By speaking to the other half, the issue has been raised. It's not a question of asking permission, it's exposing a problem and looking for the best solution before anyone takes a step in the wrong direction."

N1 - it was in this vein that I encouraged my now ex-dp to go and spend more time in the world of the arts. He was torn between me and that world and his resentment was poisoning our relationship, which had always been up and down anyway.
In setting him free, he realised that was what he wanted, not for us to live together (which I'd always said no to after our initial disastrous attempts)as I knew it wasn't the answer.

Our relationship didn't survive but we are trying to build a new one as parents, and I am happy that i made my decision based on love for him and need for security for me. So the honesty, while it led to a painful split, was the best option. If I had to, I'd do it again.

When do you stop feeling guilty and staying for the sake of the kids, when you know that its not a reason for staying with someone you
no longer respect.

Lolac21 - A house is security and a known. A known for you and the children. A house can also be the object that ties you to a relationship. Arguing over half a house can cause a life time of upset....think "war of the roses". A house in 2 people's names is helpful for the legal side of things. From what I can figure, the husband is not the sort of person who would be drastically unfair.

Sleeping separately. He didn't agree to that idea. Now I was thinking - I think you asked the question and expected an instant decision. Add delay and time to think. Think to yourself (from his perspective) what are you asking? To sleep in separate bedrooms. From the man's perspective, he wants (I am guessing) to be a leading role model for the children, where the mum and dad share everything, a room, a bed, a lounge, some hobby activities, etc. When you stop sharing a room, what else goes?

The man left the room - this tells me that he needs time to think about what you are asking.

I am guessing that you both sleep with pyjamas and there isn't much of a sex life. I am guessing that you get dressed and undressed if he is in the room because you are used to doing that. The man can see you and see that you are ok. The man then subconsciously doesn't need to ask or check because he can see you, when ever he feels the question needs an answer. Little things like that can't be compensated and talking about every single point is almost impossible.

Playing the ideal role model for the children - that's going to be a hard one to counter act.....outright. If you can't counteract, what then? Perhaps use a process to get from where you are to where you want to be. To get to a process, both need to understand the others perspective. The process is then predictable and easier to negotiate.

You asked to sleep in separate rooms. Could you offer a trend of observations over the last few years that show how you are feeling? Then show how that trend might be different if you and he slept in separate rooms? It might be worth mentioning (at this point) that it's a process that is going to happen but you want the change to be controlled and gradual. Your thought is an initial short period of time separation. Separation of some description. It might be worth explaining that things are tolerable at the moment, but what happens when things get intolerable? The simple answer is that people start doing things drastically. You want to avoid this.

How old are these children? If the children are older than about 12 then perhaps getting the man to agree to you talking to the children about you and he sleeping in separate rooms might be a possible step forward. Talking to the children first and convincing them that there might be a few changes happening which is not their fault and might be seen as wrong but a chosen preference. To the man, you need to use the term "test the water" as a way of getting him to agree that you (or he) talk to the children about you and the husband sleeping separately. Then some how you need to ask the children for their views, without actually saying that you and the husband want to sleep separately, to see what they think.

Have you considered that if you and your husband sleep separately, it might cause the children to show a loyalty to one or the other parent, in case the separation moves further?

The bloke mentions that he loves the children to much to hurt them, you see his point. The bloke accepts that the situation is not ideal and is living with it as it is. He sees you as the selfish one because you want to make the move. This man sounds like he is very fixed in his ways, get up at the same time every morning, same routine in the bathroom, has the same job for the last 10 (or more years). He doesn't like change from what he is familiar with. If you want change, small steps, slight change and aim to get him to agree.

Your next steps are to try to see things from the husbands perspective, then see what the husband thinks the child's perspective is and then get the child's views about what parents sleeping separately means and how they feel about it.

N1, thank you for your considered response. He and I have talked a lot yesterday, and a little today, including an apology for the some of the unpleasant things he said to me, but I've hurt him, and he hasn't responded in an unexpected way.

We had an irregular sex life, at his instigation and after several delaying/avoidance tactics by me, until late last summer, when he finally accepted that it wasn't what I wanted and agreed to stop asking/badgering/confronting me about it. He has not seen me naked "this millennium" (his words) because I have avoided it (sex in the dark with pyjama top or nightdress still on, only changing when he's out of the room). This is not because I have self-esteem or body image problems, as I'm size 8-10 and pretty fit.

We are leading separate lives, rarely eating together, we both work in the evenings at least some times, we rarely socialise together. We go to church together and we visit our eldest daughter together when she stays in school at the weekend (she boards).

The girls are 9 and 11. He is a traditional husband I think, we both work full time and he'll do some minor jobs around the house, empty the dishwasher, put the washing machine on sometimes. I pay a cleaner because otherwise I do everything. I do all the ironing except his clothes, sort out laundry and put the girls things away - he would leave them in a pile on the chest in our room until she ran out of knickers and only then think to put them away. He's untidy, never goes to the supermarket (partly my fault, I like to have some control over what I eat and can't see the point of the whole family traipsing round). I think he wanted a traditional wife who was a stay-at-home mother and is still struggling to accept the fact that I'm not.

He's going to talk to our parish priest and seek some counselling for himself, and has asked me again if I'll go to Relate. I refused before because I hadn't been as honest as I have now, but I am prepared to say how I feel in front of someone else, maybe it will help him to accept it. I have told my parents and they are not surprised, they could see how things were between us. His are both dead and he has no other family, I think that's partly why he is clinging to us as a family, it's very important to him.

We'll talk again during the week, I am not going to give up on the separate rooms issue, it's important to me. I have told him my aim is to live together amicably, in separate bedrooms, for as long as possible and ideally until the girls are both adults. Unfortunately, that means being open with them to an extent, and he's not at all ready to do that yet.

Things sound a bit worse than I thought they were (not that it's my place to think better or worse of you). The steps already established suggest that you want a clear image of what you allow and won't allow.

You are loving separate lives already, by not sharing a room, takes the leading a separate life one step further.

The children are older than toddlers, which allows them to understand some things but not old enough to understand things in an adult way. It's going to be tricky to discover their views about you and the husband sleeping separately. Sleeping separately should allow you to have things the way you like them and give you a taste of less responsibility for looking after him..... which should give him a taste of living with him only. Any chance of the man going to another comfort like drinking?

Relate might help. If nothing else, then another person saying that a separation might keep you and him together in the same house with the children.

With every step, it's going to take a process of adaptation. I would imagine a few months.

The man being untidy could also mean disorganised, but if his routine is set, then some of his ways could be organised. I would imagine that he needs a few days to think, perhaps get a second opinion before making a decision.

One strikingly good point is that you want to remain living in the same house so the children have access to both you and him. If you manage to get separate rooms before you start to show an outward dislike to the man, that would be good. If you can chart the negative feelings and negative thoughts, the trend should increase and the frequency should increase as well. Keeping on the trend pushes you into disliking the person to the point that you feel that you have to move away.

I think that the husband is worried about the 2 girls thinking that married people live in separate rooms and he doesn't want the girls to think that it's normal. He wants an excuse so he isn't blamed and he might want the excuse to point a finger at you for being the instigator. What to tell the children is going to be tricky and awkward, no getting away from that - honest or not.

Best of luck.

I keep going over and over this thread trying to answer something - is it a good enough reason to split "just because" you are not happy, can you never get that feeling back??

I only ask because its the one thing I cant get my head round, there are no arguments, no affair, no violence, nothing major to make me feel this way. I just feel sad and drained and tired of feeling this way. I have headache all the time and my body is aching through being so tense.

I swing from one extreme to the other but also reason with myself that maybe I think I can live this way just so as not to rock the boat and cause massive upset, or it will get better by some miracle??

We have been in gradual decline for the last 4-5 years, so not as if we havent tried to work through it, it just isnt getting any better/easier (pretty much the opposite). He refuses to go to relate or marriage counselling, says we can talk and sort it out between ourselves, but I dont think he hears what I am telling him, he prefers to ignore it and thinks it will go away. I know it is difficult to talk about potentially splitting up but I know we are going to have to go through it.

In every other way we get on fine, just in a platonic way which was fine but as days go on there just seems to be an uncomfortable feeling, not sure if he feels it too - although he would probably say it was coming from me.

I'm sorry N1, you're such a hypocrite.

"So, I asked myself - could I restrict the other half if they were unhappy, my obvious answer would be that I wouldn't want to make anyone unhappy. By restricting the other, the unhappiness would grow and eventually over spill onto me."

This from the man who refuses give money to his exwife to pay for his child's upkeep?

This "I wanted it to be over, but I didn't want to take the first step." from the man whose reason for quitting his job and hiding from the CSA is his wife broke her wedding vows?

Pinkfox - that's exactly how I feel. There's been no afair, no abuse, no reason at all for me to want out. But i do.

Is it fair for me to want out and to shatter my dc's lives, just because I want to be happy? I know deep down that I am being selfish, that it is unfair of me. But what else can I do? Stay with it for another 7-10 years, until the dc are adults? That's not really fair on dh either.

going together to relate is a good move. it will help clarify things for both of you, i hope. one way or the other....

but you planning to live as flat mates "for the sake of the children" - or because he can then pretend everything is normal?

it isnt. it hasnt been for ages. you know that.

you are not having a happy married relationship. he knows that as well -but doesnt want to admit it...

my ex wanted to sleep, just sleep, in my bed. he said, dont leave, i will sleep in the other room, we can still stay altogether...

why? what was the point for either of us?

now in a small flat it just wasnt an option but i am not sure that in a big house it would be viable either - unless you could divide into two flats.

however, if your house is big enough and can be divided so you lead separate lives, can invite people over separately etc then sure, share a house.

but i think the children need to be told straight and maybe even have a say in it. hold a family meeting. ask them what they think. mum and dad are living separately. would you prefer we stay together in same house? we both love you all but our marriage has changed. we may both get new partners at some point, etcetc.

but they need to know and process that you are not together as man and wife.

my sister's friend at uni was devastated when he went to uni and in the first term his parents split up - and mum moved out...and told him well we stayed together for you darling but now you have left home we thought it was the right time....

it is never the right time. but that 18 year old was devastated that he was responsible - in his eyes - for them staying together and being miserable - he wished they had separated properly earlier. he felt responsible for their misery in the last years.

pinkfox and sparkybabe - putting your own needs first isn't fair, putting everyone else's needs/wants first isn't fair either. I'm the only one in this family who wants something that no-one else wants. My parents are trying to be helpful but feel I should try harder to save things and reinvigorate the relationship. But if you feel nothing, should you? And I have 9 years until both mine are adults, will that be the right time to separate? Is the right time when they are 15...25...30? There will never be a right time, just a time when it is a tiny bit easier for them to handle, and I might not manage to wait that long.

The question is - how do you know when it's over.

I think the simplified answer is - when one person stops trying.

It's over. The things that follow move towards dislike then withdrawal, then sadness then resentment and then anger. The steps might not run in that order and there might be more steps, the trend seems to get worse.

Can you imagine being asked to have an intimate relationship with someone that you don't want to sleep next to?

The live is already that of a single person but the two people are sharing the bills.

You might be seen to be putting your own needs first now, but you are only thinking of the now. What about in 2 years time? Can you realistically see yourself in the same position as you are now, but 2 years older? Would that make you feel like you are living a lie. Living in a way where people think that everything is fine and happy but inside the house, the older people move round the house avoiding each other, just to avoid confrontation.

At the moment you want to separate on talking terms. You are thinking about living in separate rooms in the same house. If after 6 months both people think that moving back together is a better idea, you are both in the same house and the move back is easier. If things get more strained and the move is from in the house to another house, is a move back still as likely?

The "right time" is when you and he can reach an agreement. From what I can remember, the man wanted to seek more advice, in fairness the man should be given a few weeks to mull things over and get a second opinion. A few weeks isn't going to make that much of a difference.

Rather than fight to get to the final outcome as quick as possible, choose to look for small enough steps to make the changes as easy for everyone as possible. Have a written plan so you know where you are working to and you know when you get to the next step.