ultimatum;divorce or adoption.

[mou]

18 months ago, following a tough time my H told me we either gave DS up for adoption or our marriage was over and at the time he really meant it. i knew i had to stand by my son and then H backed down. I really tried to get over this but relationship between H and DS continued to be 80% crap and i was continually picking up the pieces until about 2 months ago when i thought i was going to have a breakdown. H can be pretty shitty when he is drunk/angry or both and is so negative about everything. i have tried and tried to get him to talk to someone but he will only talk to me and i am exhausted.
DS's problems are monumental and we have been referred to CAMHS.
I am so sad and the anger at his ultimatum keeps bubbling to the surface, even though I know after all this time i should forgive him. sometimes i look at him and feel like I don't know him anymore, and I certainly don't know myself anymore. I'm terrified of the future but only feel calm when i am on my own. want it all to stop but fed up of feeling like i'm the one that is carrying the family as i'm not that strong anymore.
tired and sad.

mou - everyone can hear how hard you're struggling. It must be terribly hard for you at the moment.

Can I make a suggestion - one which others might strongly disagree with.

Your ds is obviously having huge difficulties with the idea of being responsible for your split - very common, I think, in situations where a parent is abusive.

If I were you I would be very straightforward and tell him: No, it is not your fault. For a long time Daddy has been behaving in a way which is hurting us all, so we are leaving.

If DS is 11, then he is old enough to hear you say that adults - even those closest to him - can do wrong. At the moment he is simply experiencing the results of that wrong-doing, without it being acknowledged or named. We are usually (rightly) wary of apportioning any blame in a split, but I think that, in a situation like this which really involves the whole family, that is a mistake.

IME and IMO, the acknowledgment of things is critical in recovery. If it's all mumbled about and brushed under the carpet, then a kind of rot sets in which doesn't go away.

In addition your son, truthfully, needs to see a therapist to try to put behind him the damage that has been done when he heard what his father said (and (I'm sorry) what to him must have felt like your vacillation). And I think you would find it helpful too, to talk to someone about how best to start the process of healing, after the separation.

I'm sorry this sounds so brusque - it isn't intended to be unkind.

Message withdrawn

not brusque or unkind, the truth isn't, Honestly not using it as an 'excuse'. i am/have been really uncertain as to what is the best for DS but i know what you say is right. DS cried last night said he didn't want daddy to leave, this is one of the times when i don't know what is the right thing to do.
i have told DS over and over again that it isn't his fault that things are the way thay are but i guess it will take time for him to believe it, especially when he sees how well his dad gets on with other three children. we do lots of stuff together and have silly nicknames for each other (he's 'gorgeous boy'..he calls me 'beautiful mummy',.. well to him . At the moment, i'm not doing too good ).

I told H it was over a month ago, that i couldn't stand back and watch all involved being destroyed. children cried and cried, wanting daddy to stay.

heart broken whichever way i turn.

If your son is crying for his dad to stay, I think what he really is crying for is his dad to turn around and say "Of course I will stay, I LOVE you." I dont think he wants it to continue the way it is, he is mourning the loss of his fathers love, and what he wants is not his father to stay and hate him, but for his father to stay and love him.

If his dad cant do that, then it is a really big shame. He is a child, he cannot see this clearly. Neither can he see what is best for himself in the long run.

mou

You told DH over a month ago but what have you done since?

Hate to bang on about this but flolloping around is not going to do you any good and do your son some (more) active harm.

i suppose i kept on trying to fix things and didn't see that i was going about it the wrong way. always believed that i could turn things around and i suppose i started this thread because i've realised that i can't. a tiny part of me wanted someone to say 'hey, we went through that and we fixed it' . unrealistic maybe but i did hope.
not mean to keep going round in circles, i suppose thats how my life has become. trying to fix something thats too big for me to fix.

That is why I think you need to confide in a professional (such as gp) who can help you in the right direction.

It is very good that you have such a good relationship with your son. You must work on letting him see that daddy is not only hurting him, but you too, and that he wasnt always like that, and that daddy is ill. Mental problems is as much an illness as having a cold and a flue.

I think I remember you say his family has a history of Sizophrenia (sorry about my spelling). My sister had a friend whose dad suffered this illness. He would be hot and cold, loving and hateful, angry as a thunderstorm towards her, but not towards her mother. My sisters friend left home when she was 16, and never spoke to her mum again. However, she forgave her dad, because he was ill. Her mother did not have mental illness as an excuse, and in my sisters friends opinion, her mum had failed her, and not her dad. When her mum died, she moved back home and became her fathers carer.

Your dhs condition could maybe be controlled with medication.

Mou - Quatrro is right. A clean break hurts the most for a short time but a long, drawn out split hurts and confuses for longer. You are all hurt and confused and muddling through. A split (even if it is temporary) allows everyone to clear the head, and see the right path.

Chuck him out NOW. Pack a bag and send him to a B&B. Or you and ds and dd leave and go to a womens aid.

But DO something NOW. You know you need to.

• for you.

How're you doing, Mou?

got nowhere to go, and rely on his income and after mumsnetting issued an ultimatum..give up drinking and see someone about 'issues and anger management'. no, not an ultimatum just said do it. last chance. not to go down the same road but to mend his sons broken heart. i come much much later, if i have a heart left.
he fucking agreed.
said not want to lose me and chidren.
feel stronger because of support on here but got a LONG way to go. he will not hurt DS again.(emotionally, i 'lucky' he never physical) DS desparately wants his dad to stay as he remembers when it was different.
little steps, long road and not sure where it is taking me. got lots of supportline numbers if it even looks like going awry.
think he knows something has changed.
still tired and so sad but time to myself this week which will do me good.
thank you so much for your concern

Okay mou.

I worry though, that perhaps you are giving your son a responsibility that is too great. I think, to him, it will appear that you are asking him to choose what happens next, by asking him what he wants or by involving him in your decision-making.

I think it would be good to bear in mind that children often don't say what they feel, because it terrifies them, or they feel that it would jeopardize what security they do have.

DS may want his old dad back (of course), and at the same time be desperate, without even being able to admit it too himself, for you to show unequivocally that you will defend him against anyone who threatens him (emotionally, I mean). And that for you, he comes first.

He will never, in any case, get his old dad back. Even if your husband's behaviour improves, the old dad is the one that never said 'have him adopted.' It's not possible, ever, to get back to that dad. It's only possible to 'move on' from what his father said, and moving on is not something, I don't think, that a child can be asked to do. When he is more mature he can decide for himself if he wants to move on.

Children are also often scared of change. He will also feel that the weight of the whole family's happiness (brothers and sisters, and your own) rest on his shoulders.

It's possible, also, that you are telling him that you will leave if he wants it, but giving out all sorts of other signals that you don't really want to do that.

I feel a huge weight of responsibility, coming down with such a strong opinion when a family's future is at stake. This is what I believe, and firmly, but only you know what's best for him and you all, and I wish you very well.

I don't think mou has asked her son what he wants. I think he has just said what he doesn't want (his dad leaving) when mou said that the relationship was over. This sort of thing is a really difficult minefield to manouvre around, because it could be that her ds thinks that his dad is staying because of his wobbly, which might indeed give him the impression that he has the power/responsibility.

I really hope that you get a good CAHMS team involved. My friend with the very difficult son and husband has accessed support for herself, and a diagnosis and therapy for her husband through this route, and said the diagnosis made a big difference to all of them because it meant they could talk about things in a rational way, acknowledging his difficulties.

I hope that something similar can come out of this situation for you, because whether you physically stay with your husband or not he will remain a big part of your children's lives. Wishing you all the best, whatever path you take.

Oh mou, I'm so sorry to read this threaad

mou, you are the only person your ds has, your dh can find anothe wife, you can find another man but your ds has oly 1 mum and dad. Let DH go, you are better of without him as anyone who asks you to make that kind of choice is not worth having around. i hope you find a solution to your problem without to mych heartache as your son needs you and you need him.

to explain a little. i haven't asked my DS to have any part in the choice as to whether or not his dad stays. this comes from his heart when he is calm and talks to me and that is why i am listening to him. he is an exceptionally sensitive child and whether i like it or not and no matter what i say, he blames himself. after i started the thread i told H that he has to quit drinking and repair the damage he has done or i can not forsee any kind of future for my DS in which he has a part. he has also to see someone about depression/moodswings/anger management. and he has agreed. not for me, for DS.
i don't know where this man came from and to a certain extent where the woman that i have become came from.
I have to consider that as a woman if i had some kind of breakdown and screwed up as a mother there would be a massive amount of support in getting me back on track, and as a human being i need to put that in place so that if the man i once knew is in there he has a chance to find it. my confusion and vascillating stems from the very fact that he has changed, he really was a tender, protective, funny man, and i don't understand what happened.
This really isn't an excuse and i am not going down the forgiving only for it to happen again route. talking on MN has really given me the strength to say 'no more'. i asked him what he thought our DD would grow up thinking of him even though she doesn't bear the brunt of his anger. what would his sons, whom i love dearly, would think of him if they knew how he treated us. i would never of dared before i came on MN. I have so many issues that i could start so many threads with, this is just the beginning. i don't have much self esteem so if someone says 'you are a bad person', i believe it.
i got defensive at Dominions comment at first but she was right, what kind of a mother have i become? and i have my own damage to repair through my own weakness.
H stays in the house to help rebuild my broken son, so he sees us go to therapy together, sees his dad make amends. i have drawn a line and it will not be crossed, one drink, one angry uncontrolled outburst and we not only split but everybody will know why.
in truth at the moment our marriage is over and only after we do right by our children can i even begin to find out if there is anything left to salvage. i don't know what the future holds but it is certainly not going to be like the past 18 mnths.
thanks for all the support, it really has made a difference and if i waver i look at this thread and draw strength.....

Mou I have been following this but not had any advice. I'm glad though that MN has given you strength and confidence. The hardest bit is yet to come, when your H first tests how strongly you feel about this. Anticipate that this will happen; be prepared to push him regarding therapy (also be prepared for a long wait before he can get any ), and come back here again when things get tough. MN is here for you

No, you misunderstand me. I didn't mean that mou was literally asking her son to decide, but that in using what he wants (or what he thinks he wants, or what he thinks she wants him to want) as the basis for her decision, she might effectively doing the same thing.

Mou, Have read this thread with great sympathy.

Just one thing I fear, you have drawn a line in the sand in your mind - one drink, one angry uncontrolled outburst - how long does that apply for?

So if it is a week down the line and he gets pissed up and verbally attacks you and DS, he is out the door. Fine, I agree with you.

BUT what if it is a year down the line? So much good work done, so much recovery, I fear that for the sake of that good year and the hope of more to come, you will not throw him out, you will give yourself one more line in the sand. Which will be eroded, not a year later, but a few months. And the next time, a few weeks. I hope I am wrong but I think it likely I am not.

Separations do not have to be irrevocable. Your DH has serious issues, and your DS has issues (which sound as if they are being exacebated by DH, but I am sure will not just disappear if he is out of the picture and will probably temporarily get worse). You cannot hold all this together. Some time apart, with family therapy, is to me the best way to go. And if DH was not willing to do that, with a view to reuniting as a family when all the issues were under control, then it would be a one way ticket out for me.

I think what georgimama said is spot on.

georgimamma

I like what you said about the line in the sand - and how after time it may not be as strong.

But isnt that the course of relationships - we all have lines - but after building the relaionship they become blurred? Once there is some 'investment' in a marriage it would be foolish to throw the towel in for a small outburst.

I do think there needs to be continued communication on both sides about where the relaionship is going. But there also needs to come a point where the past really is in the past.

Obviously these should happen in all relationhips anyway.

Happy, I agree with you that sometimes things have to be let go, but the thought of the little boy on constant tenterhooks, worried about when his world is going to collapse and he is going to be marched off by social services because Daddy doesn't want him, would be too much for me.

The past does belong in the past, but I don't think mou and her family can truly get past all this unless they are open and honest, and seek counselling separately and as a family.

yes i do agree - it just struck a chord with me as i have a ds who is quite sensitive and my h put us all through quite a bit.

I still do find it hard to keep it in the past but we do try and be more open and have had counselling too.

There really is a huge burden on this little boy. He'll probably get it into his head that he has to be perfect and always please daddy or daddy will go away and it will ALL BE HIS FAULT. I'm sorry Mou but I don't see any way that this can improve, apart from a full commitment from your husband for family therapy. Your poor boy

Mou, I am reading your posts (perhaps wrongly) as more vacillation. What is going to change?

It is relatively unlikely for grown middleaged people to change their characters substantially.

How will you make sure that any change (should it happen) will become permanent?

By not making changes (and this is the toughest question of all so you have to forgive me) are you in fact placing your needs and those of your husband ahead of your child? Are you placing a further emotional burden upon him?