ultimatum;divorce or adoption.

[mou]

18 months ago, following a tough time my H told me we either gave DS up for adoption or our marriage was over and at the time he really meant it. i knew i had to stand by my son and then H backed down. I really tried to get over this but relationship between H and DS continued to be 80% crap and i was continually picking up the pieces until about 2 months ago when i thought i was going to have a breakdown. H can be pretty shitty when he is drunk/angry or both and is so negative about everything. i have tried and tried to get him to talk to someone but he will only talk to me and i am exhausted.
DS's problems are monumental and we have been referred to CAMHS.
I am so sad and the anger at his ultimatum keeps bubbling to the surface, even though I know after all this time i should forgive him. sometimes i look at him and feel like I don't know him anymore, and I certainly don't know myself anymore. I'm terrified of the future but only feel calm when i am on my own. want it all to stop but fed up of feeling like i'm the one that is carrying the family as i'm not that strong anymore.
tired and sad.

If you are forced into choosing between your husband nad child then I would say there is no choice to be made. Your child needs you. It sound like your son expecially needs a lot of support and help, and you need to feel that you can concentrate on that with out worrying about your husbands totally unreasonable behaviour needs.

Hold on a minute - your son's father drinks, gets drunk, is negative about everything and has made it clear that he wants to put his son into care ... and his son knows this. And you think the CHILD has monumental problems?

Your family has monumental problems. Your son needs to know that you think little enough of this turd's comments to kick him out. but not following through the ultimatum, you haven't kicked your husband out so I am guessing your son is waiting to be put into care. It was one or the other, right?

YOu need to kick him out. You should NOT forgive him, he is unforgivable for allowing his little boy to see him like this, for allowing his little boy to know his father doesn't love him enough to keep him out of a situation where he will become vulnerable to sexual, emotional and physical abuse from other children who have been abused, where his behavior will lead to constant police intervention and, now he is ten, a criminal record. Don't comfort yourself with the thought that your husband wanted his child adopted into a nice loving family, unless he lives on Mars he must know that 10 year old boys with behavioral problems do not get adopted, they live in government care homes or move around through strings of foster homes. Your son's life would be shit, I'm guessing your husband would know this, and doesn't care.

Your son's behavior will probably improve immeasurably when he isn't constantly subjected to a biological father who wants him gone.

"Your family has monumental problems. Your son needs to know that you think little enough of this turd's comments to kick him out. but not following through the ultimatum, you haven't kicked your husband out so I am guessing your son is waiting to be put into care. It was one or the other, right?"

That's really well put. Kids remember ultimatums; he's on tenterhooks waiting for the people to come and take him away - even if you have told him it won't happen...

I think you need to act and fast to sort this out before it goes way too far.

I agree with Colditz.
I used to hear these ultimatums all the time.
My stepfather would tell my mother 'me or her', when he was still there it made it plain to em that she had chosen him.
It took until I was 15 for her to finally throw me at the care system but I was, as Colditz says just waiting.

Maybe this child will be better off in care. Anything to get out of your family, to be honest. Do you love your son? Or even care for him in the slightest?

He has a father who is drunk and angry, and hates him.
He has a sister that his father loves and get on with.
Daily he can see the difference in attitude his father has to his two children.
He is threading on eggshells.

Imagine this: A ten year old who is scared of being kicked out from his family because his father hates him, and his mum does not care enough about him to help him.

Mou, I feel so sad for you and your son. I agree with other posters that your son's behaviour is highly likely to be caused by feeling unwanted, unimportant, not listened to, not loved for the person he is etc. Even if DS hadn't heard the conversation - which is devastating for him and will probably affect him for life, if this is how your H feels then it will come accross to DS through his mannerisms and the way he talks to him anyway. It is not good for him to be around your H the way he is now.

If your H could get professional help and could really change and could then make it really clear to DS that he does love him and want him, he was just ill when he said those things, and keep reassuring him and making it up to him then this would be the ideal thing. Could this happen/is it likely? If this is not going to happen then it seems like the best thing is to leave your H.

Your son needs you more than your H and is more vulnerable. It is your responsibility to protect your son however scary that is, and I know it is scary. If you don't protect him and you put your H's feelings above his and your own feelings above his(because it will be very hard for you to lose your H and I acknowledge that), your son will never truly forgive you and will be very damaged. You will probably never forgive yourself!

So, if you think your H can change enough, get him some help and support him in coming to terms with what has made him the way he is. If you don't think your H can change enough to make your son feel totally reassured then leave him. It may be the hardest thing you ever did but after the worst is over you will know for the rest of your life that you did the right thing and you were very strong. If you take the easy option now to protect yourself and leave your vulnerable son open to abuse you will feel bad about it for the rest of your life.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh but this is emotive for me as my mum took the easy option of not protecting me from abuse and I am still messed up at the age of 36 and my relationship with parents is irreversibly damaged.

Your son is behaving as he is because he is hurting. His dad doesn't want him and he doesn't know how to express it.

For me, I would be ringing a solicitor right now and filing for divorce. You have to make sure yoiur son believes the marriage isn't over because of him, but because of his father.

I do feel that I should say sometimes children have behavioural problems that are not in any way caused by their parents. My friend's child is Oppositional Defiant, as part of AS. It is an immense struggle for his family, especially for his dad because he also has (very late diagnosed, in fact only as a result of the family accessing CAHMS) Aspergers. His dad has also threatened to walk out because he felt he couldn't cope. His mother has is in effect trying to support two people with lots of problems, and I do admire her for it. That may be totally irrelevant, but just wanting to point out that it is possible that the dad is really struggling with his own mental health, and may not be just "bad". Of course he might be Either way I think mou needs to get as much help as she can.

My ex-P was in a similar situation as a child, and did end up in care as a 12 year old. FWIW, I think if his mum had taken a harder line with her husband it would have been much better for him. As it was, he turned out to be a bit of a bully himself, and treated me like crap, probably because he saw women as inferior to the "head of the household" whose word was law. It hasn't helped him in his relationships as an adult, hence his "ex" status with me. I stayed with him for too long because I felt bullied but sorry for him too, and he needed my "mothering". If his mother had stood up for him and herself earlier on, I suspect he might have turned out differently.

I hope you get the help you need x

Your son needs you and needs to know how much he means to you - especially after hearing his dad say that. He witnesses his dad treat you like that and you wonder why he is angry and violent?

Your son needs to know that women should not be treated the way you are being treated by your husband, and that the way he acts isn't right. Your children will be happier living with one happy parent rather than 2 parents in this situation.

Agree with all the posters who have said that your DH is unforgiveable. What sort of father dumps their child aged 10 into the care system?

Why does he suggest that you are not right in the head? Is he just being vile or have you had issues in the past?

He has two older sons 23 And 24 with whom he was amazingly tender and patient and yes i know it compounds his crap behaviour with DS, but didn't kick him out straight away because i was blindsided by the change in him. might not have made the right choice but i have put and am putting my all into this child and he does not have a criminal record, the police were fantastic and sympathetic to the circumstances.
Do i care for my son Dominion? of course i do, i feel shit enough as it is. didn't come on here to be made to feel even more so, never claimed to be a strong woman but i am trying very very hard to do the right thing even if i'm not bloody sure what it is. i'm not looking life from the perspective of a rational confident person, i'm tired, confused, battling with depression and an eating disorder but yes i do love my son.

Just done a straw poll amongst my family here and the consensus is that you should be putting DH's clothes into bin bags rather than asking on here. I don't know if I've missed something crucial but there's no decision to be made as far as I can see.

You really need to chose between this man and your child and you need to do it quickly.

I am hoping that you chose your son and that you start letting him know that it is not his fault, but his father's, and that he is more imprortant to you than anything else. He needs to know that he is your priority and is safe with you.

Good luck.

You poor thing - I hope you can get some help for yourself too. It sounds like an awful situation to be in, and you need some looking after by the sound of it.

Mou - you can do this! You will need lots of support from friends, family, PMers and professionals, but you and your son can make this work.

PMers??? I meant MNers.

there is no choice to be made. your son is no doubt having monumental problems due to living with a nasty drunk father who wants rid of him.

agree 100 % with colditz on this one

whatever is happening, being without this man will be easier in the long run

'I am so scared of crossing the line and saying it is over'

I'm sure lots of people on here have felt that at various times and to varying degrees (I certainly have in previous relationships). The truth is, though, that you can survive without an abusive DH who refuses to take responsibility for is own son. Imagine that the choice was taken away from you (for example if your DH died or left of his own accord), you'd get on with it because you'd have to.

Of course it's frightening, but that doesn't mean it won't be better in the end.

I think all this vacillating is doing you or your son no good at all. You've said you have difficulty working out what to wear in the morning - yet sitting around wringing your hands for years is not going to solve your son's problems.

quattrocentro, as far as i know i'm not actually 'not right in the head'..apart from depression which lots of us suffer from, we were talking and he asked me to repeat some of the things that he'd said to me when drunk, i said no , he pushed it, so i did and he said he wouldn't have said the things i claimed he'd said, i've got no reason to make it up. he's also quite jealous and thinks my weight loss is because of another man. thats when he said it.

you are right, vascillating is a bad thing.
but in public life he's quite jokey and well liked, so people surprised i'm unhappy. suppose i came on to MNet because i think there must be people who relate in some way, and need some support...thanks

Mou - you're getting some really good advice and support here. I hope you don't think people are attacking you or being unsympathetic to your situation.

But it does seem obvious to everyone what the problem is AND what the solution is. There's lots of help out there (and on here) that you can access.

I really hope things get better for you and your ds.

Your son urgently needs to be removed from his father - by YOU. I'm sorry to be harsh, but he will never, never recover if he doesn't see that you will not tolerate his father's abuse of him.

You need to act now. I know that a future alone with your children, and esp with DS's behavioural problems, must seem insupportable, but it is what you must do if you do not want to look in ten years time at a crushed and broken young man and know that you could have prevented it but didn't.

It is very, very likely that DS's behaviour will improve immeasurably when he is not suffering the abusive behaviour of his father.

I feel very, very sorry for you, but you must act NOW.

The support is there for you, mou, either here on MN, or through a good divorce solicitor (who you can find through www.resolution.org.uk).

We do see how hard it may seem at the moment, but it doesn't look like you have a choice, other than to write your son off to life of even worse misery than he has now.

Many abusive men are actually quite plausible to those in the outside world. It is only behind closed doors that their true colours surface.

Your son is not the only one to be suffering at his hands. You all are suffering because of his abusive behaviour and you've become conditioned to it.

CAMHS won't necessarily fix things for your family either. Your family is in breakdown.

Why are you still with someone like this, have you become so blindsided to his many problems?. You cannot fix him or even attempt to.