Toxic MIL obsessed with ‘kindness‘

[Thebestdaysofourlife]

Need some advice on how to deal with my MIL. She is obsessed with ‘kindness’ and everything she does has to be kind, she judges everyone else based on how kind she perceives them to be.

She does lots of things that we don’t like but if we ask her not to, she sulks as she was only being kind. Basically if we ever disagree with her then we are nasty people as she was just doing what she did or said with kindness. Examples - she reorganised all my kitchen cupboards one afternoon whilst babysitting, DH told her it was she had overstepped the mark, she got upset as she was being kind. We went on a day out and the children were behaving badly, I told them off and she was cuddling them saying I didn’t mean what I said - again she was only saying it with kindness. The crux of it is that her actions can only ever be good as they were meant with good intentions.

Earlier this year she had a bad mental health episode which unfortunately coincided with the birth of DC3 and also me being extremely ill and needing major surgery, DH had to get quite firm with her to arrange proper help for her (she wanted him to move in with her whilst I was caring for 3 DC, one a newborn, having just had major surgery) and now she says he was unkind in the way he spoke to her and she can’t forgive him.

How can we deal with this? It’s causing a lot of friction. She hasn’t got any other family at all so it feels incredibly mean to cut her off. We live close to her and every time we see her it’s ending in an argument. I dropped in with the DCs a couple of nights ago and she wouldn’t let me in!

Ok but stop playing into it. Why did DH ask her to elaborate? It’s fairly obvious what she was doing. With stuff like that you starve it of attention.

I’m not being rude but you are both being a bit dim. It’s fairly bog standard low level emotional manipulation, similar to a child. She wants space give her space.

how do you respond to tantrums to flap and feed into the behaviour and give negative reinforcement OR do you let it peter out?

she’s an adult give her what she wants. Space. If she apologises for being a bother say thank you and then leave.

If she doesn’t let you in, don’t go back and don’t send any begging texts either. She is treating you how you let her.

Dont have her baby sitting anymore. It’s not worth it.

we have to agree with her, go along with anything she wants as she’s always only doing so out of kindness

No, you don't. Create your boundaries and stick to them. It's not your responsibility to manage her reaction to your boundaries. When she trots out the "I was just being kind" nonsense, tell her firmly that 'being kind' is just a label she attaches when she's trying to justify her manipulation/interfering/overstepping, and you won't tolerate behaviour that causes upset. It's not so much a question of 'why is she doing this?' it's 'why are you allowing it?'

Except you don't have to.

When she does something "kind" like rearranging you cupboards explain how ubkkbd it is to take over someone's space and do what she wants. Explain it is unkind to expect a man to abandon his wife and new baby. Explain it is unkind to leave your family who are kindly visiting on the doorstep. Each time she does something which she wants to "excuse" as her being kind point out how unkind it is to someone else.

At present enjoy the peace of her staying away!

Every time you argue, tell her you were just being kind. Stick to this narrative like glue. She’ll get the point eventually.

My MIL was a bit like this when I was young. She would hugely overstep, behaving quite strangely. She would do things like rearrange my things in my drawers and private spaces, come round extremely early, five am, to "help". She would buy lots of presents and then get upset that I didn't want them. We clashed on all this and more and she would get so upset and shout that she was only trying to help.

Eventually I grew up a bit myself and took on a different role in the relationship, because honestly it was actually true. She was trying to help but she was just crap at it. She was insecure, anxious, controlling, all kinds of mixed up in her head and in her relationships in a way that I was luckily not and I learned (a bit) how to help her have a less fraught and crazy relationship with us.

A big part of it was massively reducing my expectations of her emotional capacity. She was not a Machiavellian genius out to destroy me, she was a flaily insecure mess destroying everything with her mixed up patterns of behaviour. She was doing her best, genuinely, and her best was pretty bad. As I learned more about her life and her childhood, I gained a lot of understanding and, honestly, respect for how far she had come and how much she had surmounted to get to where she was with it all.

Some things that worked: calmly setting boundaries. 1) Saying thank you to her when she shouted that she was only trying to help and really acknowledging that while continuing to set a boundary. Like: thank you. I really appreciate the sentiment and I know you are trying to help me. It turns out I can't use that help, but I really appreciate that you're always trying. 2) Being slightly over grateful to her when she did things I didn't mind or even liked. 3) Letting most things go.

She wasn't a terrible person even though she did a few terrible things. She was just a flawed person, and we're all flawed in our own way so I could relate to that. We never became good friends and I never "fixed" her, but we did accept each other and have a relationship of sorts. And I did end up being grateful to/for her, which is genuinely what she dearly wanted/needed, so hurray.

...she wanted him to move in with her whilst I was caring for 3 DC, one a newborn, having just had major surgery...

That's not kind, it's extremely selfish. She sounds very controlling.

Replace the fake word wrapper she’s using ‘kind’ to reveal her real behaviour - which is intrusive and controlling. You don’t need her to agree with you or to persuade her that she isn’t being kind - she’s doesn’t have the emotional intellect to even begin to understand that.

Don’t waste your breathe. Don’t be controlled by her threats of volatility, don’t indulge her weeping and wailing. Don’t use words use actions.

Be clear on your boundary. State it once very calmly and include the deadline and the consequence. The consequence needs to be immediate and consistent and is always about actions. Eg If you do that again, if you don’t stop sulking we are leaving.

You are just in a process of managing her. Or your DH is. Keep her at arms length. Keep your contact down to minimum out of the house activities. Have a plan for her not to drain or impact your lives. You are very busy with 3 young children and a new born - relish the fleeting moments of motherhood - don’t let her be a fly in the ointment preoccupying you with her emotionally immature manipulative behaviours - don’t let her steal your joy. Shes always going to be a pain in the arse. Deal with her, nip everything in the bud and put in significant physical distance and detach emotionally in your head.

How difficult! I think the only way to handle this it to set boundaries.

“MIL, I know you were trying to be helpful and had good intentions but please don’t reorganise our house without asking first.” She won’t agree with you but that doesn’t matter - if there is any argument firmly insist that it is your house and it what you want in your house.

it was obviously totally reasonable of your DH to insist that she got help and he stayed at home to look after you and the DCs after your surgery. However, I think it would be mean to immediately cut her off despite her bad behaviour since she clearly has vulnerabilities. I’d try short visits and again set clear boundaries “MIL, your feelings are your feelings but if you tell DH again you can’t forgive him, we are going to go straight home.”

Well she wasn't kind at all, and you should call out how unkind her behaviour is (I appreciate in a mental health crisis she probably could not see the woods from the trees, but it should have been raised later how selfishly and unkindly she acted at a time you and the DC were so vulnerable, and she needs to have a care plan in place now for the next incident, so no one is left at risk again in the future). But yeah, just shrug and tell her it is not kind of her words/actions have not been considered in terms of how it will land or if it will hurt anyone. That is simply self-righteousness.

Alternatively, be "kind" yourselves until she sees sense...

@Pallaska You're clearly a nicer person than most! My DW would lose her shit if someone reorganised her kitchen cupboards without asking. I mean, those cupboards are exactly the way she wants them & they're the engine-room of her care for our family. She knows where everything is & everyone else has learned not to mess up her system. How dare anyone muck about with them, thinking they could do better?!

My MIL is capable of being fairly manipulative, too. One of her favourite tricks is to moan on about someone's behaviour towards her - eg her son, or her boyfriend, or a neighbour. And when you agree with her, saying oh that's terrible, they shouldn't have said that, or done that, she switches and suddenly defends them. "Oh, he's got psychological problems! It's not his fault, you can't blame him!" Essentially so she can portray herself as the defender of the world's misunderstood people - which she clearly considers herself to be. All the moaning is forgotten the moment she springs her little trap, cornering you into the unkind corner.

And I think a similar thing is happening to the OP. Her MIL is setting up dramas, but reserving a good role for herself, ie the kind person who's just been unkindly rebuffed or criticised. But of course many of the things she does are not kind by any stretch of the imagination. She wanted her son to move in with her & look after her while her DIL coped with 3 DCs immediately after major surgery!

The trouble with people who behave like this is, you can never level with them; you can't have an entirely honest conversation with them because their unmet needs are always front & centre, distorting everything. What made the difference for you was realising that your MIL was in fact trying to help, just going about it badly. But what if they're not trying to help? What if your interactions with them are just a charade of neediness and manipulation?

I've had to withdraw a long way from my MIL. When we visit, I behave more like a friendly repair man than anything else - because almost always, I'm fixing something for her. If she tries to trap me into being unkind or inconsiderate, I absolutely have to grey-rock. It's sad, but the conversations she wants & tries to have are meaningless, really. They're designed solely to deliver an emotional payoff to her, always at someone else's expense. So you have to behave as if the interaction you're having with her is the one YOU want. I keep things cheery, I don't respond to any bait-y comments, I change the subject. If things get too awful, I say, ok I'm going now, I'll be back when you're feeling a bit better. Shall I make you a tea before I go? Something like that - but I make it clear I'm going.

It's very much like dealing with a child behaving badly; you don't give them the payoff they're angling for - eg shouting, because of course that makes you the bad guy & justifies their crap behaviour.

I'm not a particularly nice person, no, but I do feel I am a hugely lucky person. The difference between me and my MIL is that at some point in her life, as a young child or maybe even a baby, she learned that it was dangerous to simply ask for the love, care and attention we all long for. So she created elaborate systems to try to trap people into giving that to her, by creating obligation and guilt and shame in her kids and partner. She couldn't make friends. Traps are a really good framing metaphor actually. I felt she was hunting and trapping me in some peculiar way.

I'm just so lucky that I have so many people that love and support me in my life. I had wonderful parents, I'm close with all my brothers and sisters. I have lots of friends. When I have emotional needs, I can just reach out my arms and ask for love. Not everyone can do this and it makes them pretty behave pretty weirdly sometimes. But underneath, it's not really weird to want to be loved and needed - we all do want this.

I really agree with you that the best way to handle it is to act as though the interaction you're having is the best version of the actual interaction. I think that's key.

@Pallaska Yes, I'm sure you're right about the roots of your MIL's behaviour. There's always a story. What's the saying? - to understand all is to forgive all.

Except, in the real world, in which we all have to survive amongst the slings and arrows of Shit That Happens, horrible bosses, nasty neighbours and yes, manipulative MILs, we have something to protect. Our family; our sanity.

So how do we deal with people who are clearly damaged, who only know how to get their needs met by underhand means? If those people are older, there's no realistic chance of them re-learning how to behave in the world. As others have said, the elephant in the room for the OP is her MIL's mental illness. Dealing with mentally ill people can take an incredible toll on you; someone once described it to me as "like living with a food mixer" - when you're with them, they're constantly scrambling up your life, your thoughts.

I've known a couple of people like that & I had to dissociate in the end. Maybe there's treatment that will help them, but I certainly couldn't. I featured in their lives as food. They fed on me; whizzed me up & roped me into their endless dramas. It was having children that brought an end to all that; I knew I needed to be free of that nonsense in order to cope with my own suddenly very demanding stuff.

I think you are heroic to have maintained your empathy through it all. Me, I feel sorry for my MIL but I constantly remind myself, I didn't make her like she is so I don't have to feel obliged to absorb all her BS. She does have spells where she's nicer; usually after something's happened, eg an illness or a minor injury. She gets taken to the doctor, or hospital, and she's nice as pie for a week or two - she's being cared for. But the tricks always start up again. Even when you're doing nice things for her, she'll bite the hand that's helping, try and put you in the wrong. And then you have to sort of wind in your emotional antennae & be more grey. Doesn't feel great - but better than it feels getting sucked in.

Oh yes, I had to completely give up any idea of fixing her, or of having the sort of relationship I had with my own family. What I found hardest was to let go of the idea that she was making me feel this way or that way: sad or angry or ashamed. She was definitely trying to do those things - she knew no other way to reach me - but I came to think that I was just so evidently more in charge of my emotions and behaviour that I could probably brush it off if I tried. And I found that to be true. So I didn't join in, is what I'm saying.

I'm so sorry you've had this experience. "I featured in their lives as food." What a vivid description! I felt that so viscerally.

This could be about my MIL. Entitled, always overstepping every boundary, but you're not allowed to assert yourself because "she only wanted to be helpful/kind". Cue in the tears. At least your DH is able to deal with it, mine is completely useless. I stepped back and only see my PIL twice or thrice a year, so I'm the awful DIL, but I find I can live with it.

Thing is, I carry a lot of hurt and anger towards my MIL, but I also pity her, so it's complicated. I don't know what I'm trying to tell you here, I guess just letting you know that you're not alone.

She sounds awful. I absolutely wouldn’t be tolerating her behaviour!

See her for what she is. Dont put up with it but Play her at her own game.

She enjoys causing the drama. Stop engaging with her. Let DH see her as he wants but take a huge step back yourself.

Play her at her own game, rearrange her house and tell her it was done with kindness.

Absolutely! Id find ways like this to show her kindness and get her angry! 😂

Disagree with much of this

Avoid JADE

Justify
Argue
Defend
Explain

She KNOWS what she is doing, she knows it gets the result she wants and she knows you will respond with
Please dont, blah blah
Stop JADEing and just set the boundary

She doesnt have access to your house
Keep visits short
If she starts " waaaah waaah Im such a trouble"
Just reply Ok , no trying to find out what she means and leave

Anything wierd, toxic, " kind"
One and done
"Ok" said blankly and go
I suspect her MI was Narcissistic collapse

@Pallaska those 'food' guys were just friends - or, very troubled & troubling friends as it turned out. Bloody annoying, baffling but not debilitating. I was young enough to put it all down to experience.

@GelatinousDynamo anger and pity - absolutely this.

I don't think you can take revenge on people like this, surely that's getting sucked into the psychodrama big time? Not to say mean.

OP, that thing where your MIL apologised for all the trouble she'd caused but then wouldn't speak? That's manipulation right there. It hardly matters whether she's doing it fully consciously or if it's massive insecurity playing out from her childhood. Your response to it should be the same: refuse to get dragged into the drama. It doesn't help her to see her worst impulses hitting home & being acted upon.
It's difficult; you'll feel you're being cold. But you're not; you're simply refusing to get sucked into toxicity. You can carry on being nice, but on your terms.

Aren't they also your kitchen cupboards?

You can only be kind if the recipient deems your act to be kind. You can't decide yourself what's kind for someone else really. Just tell her that

How old is MiL? Is this new behaviour? Is there a chance of dementia type symptoms? My DM has become odd and demanding in a similar "Im just being nice" way and now has a diagnosis of cognitive impairment. DM never cared about being kind before now, so it was definitely something new going on.