Advice needed please..

[NewNameForHelp]

I have been wanting to ask this for a while, but it has really been getting me down lately and I think its come time to address it.

I have also name changed, as people know me on here, and I don't want anyone to know I feel this way about myself.

Anyway, I don't really know how to start. I am quite self-destructive, I do lots of self-destructive things, but I keep myself fairly under control since having DS (though probably still not as much as I should).

The main problem I have is with men.

I have to feel gorgeous all the time. I spend fortunes on clothes and shoes and accessories and makeup etc (I mean fortunes) and I am getting into debt. I flirt incessantly with pretty much every man I meet, and honestly, do it without even realising half the time. I need men to want me.

When I like someone, I pursue them until I get them, which is usually not long. Then I will sleep with them. Sometimes I sleep with people I have only just met that night.

Then, the ones who don't want to take things further (ie, just sex, no relationship) are the ones I want, and I get all het up about them. And the ones that do want a relationship, are the ones I don't like. Without exception, it has happened around 20 times in the last 2 or 3 years, which makes me think this is me, rather than bad luck.

I crave male attention, I get annoyed and 'bored' on a night out when there are no men there. Even if there are only non-single men there, I am happy. I need men to be around to be happy. I need to be looked at, and purposely go out with men who I know fancy me. I do this a lot, and actually feel bad about it as I know I am leading them on in a way.

I know this sounds awful. I don't know why I am like this, and I don't think I am ever going to understand why?

I have thought about maybe seeking help, as I don't think this is a normal way to feel, TBH. But obviously, MN first

If anyone has any advice, it would be really appreciated. Thanks.

Do you go for other peoples boyfriends NNFH?

I think it's a bit dangerous hoping you will meet someone and that they will change you - what a responcibilyt. You have to be responsible for yoursele. No one is coming to save you.

And addiction to realtionships/sex can be a symptom of an underlying psychological illness.

You have asked for help and now you say it isn;t really a problem. Fair enough. Seems a bit like denial to me.

Sorry I haven't put that across very well.

I do want help, but I don't want to get it from talking to someone in RL. I really can't do that, so that is why I am asking for help on MN.

I don't hope that I will meet someone who will change me. I hope that I will meet someone I feel strongly enough for that I will not longer feel the need or desire for other male attention. I don't think that is laying the responsibility on anyone, other than my own self, as I will have to trust my feelings.

If sex/relationship addiction can indicate psychological problems, then that is a bit of a worry.

Sorry - meant to add - no I don't 'go' for other peoples boyfriends, however I often find other peoples boyfriends go for me, and as Madamez put so well earlier:

Some people think it's wrong to flirt with or pursue people who are in a supposedly monogamous relationship with someone else: basically if the person you are flirting with is a functional adult then it is his/her moral responsiblitiy to decline your offers on the grounds of being in an existing monogamous relationship.

And I agree with this sentiment. If a partner cheated on me, sure I would be angry with the other woman. I would probably hate her, but I know I would not blame her.

I certainly do not ever intentionally do it, but I am not going to lie and say it has never happened. However, to my knowledge, I haven't been out with a guy who has a partner. I have however, been out with guys who haven't told me they are not single.

NNFH - I know this is going on a slightly new tack, but perhaps your thing about not talking about feelings in real life is linked to not knowing why you need admiration from men?
Bear with me here, it's going to either be really good or totally wide of the mark:
Perhaps if you talk about your feelings, it challenges your belief in who you are and that leaves you vulnerable, suggesting that perhaps you have a picture of who you are that isn't actually real and that any challenge to that picture might expose the "real" you, and that you are scared of that happening.
The fact that you run away from having relationships with men who want to be with you and hanker after men who aren't that bothered also suggests that you are avoiding your feelings, again suggesting that there is something hiding in there that you have successfully blocked out (maybe some kid at school said something about you being ugly, for e.g., and it stuck in your subconscious).

Or maybe I'm just clutching at straws here for you - I feel like you really do want to get to the bottom of this but there is an element of fear (is that too strong?) at what you might have to go through to get there i.e. bringing up feelings.

NNFH, it's also possible that you are simply not monogamous. Because pro-monogamy propaganda is thrown at us all so constantly, people who are not monogamous often feel that there is something wrong with them that can only be fixed by finding the 'right' partner, when they might actually be better off working out ways of living a monogamy-free life, maybe with one primary partner and a few regular friends-with-benefits, maybe by taking up swinging with a regular partner, maybe by just having a casual-but-friendly-and-polite sex life with lots of people.

Bloody hell.

Well, that made me feel.. weird.

I have never been any good at talking about feelings, or showing emotion. I remember being very little and hiding to cry. I don't know why, as I was not brought up to feel that it was weird, or wrong or anything, quite the opposite.

I don't think I have ever cried in front of someone else, apart from the occasional drunken argument with ex's. I certainly cannot be after talking about this in RL to someone. Could not. I don't think fear is too strong, maybe you are right.

What sort of thing could I have blocked out?

Madamez - maybe. But does the fact that I get upset about it, and want a proper relationship not suggest that maybe I want to be monogamous?

Maybe you are right though. Maybe I am meant to be this way?

I'm going to be old and lonely. One of those old ladies with loads of cats.

NNFH: while I don't want to sidetrack you if there's other stuff going on that needs sorting out, there are more than just the two options of: monogamous (but not entirely satisfying to you) relationship or lonely old age. FWIW many of the 'lonely' old ladies are the ones who put everything into one monogamous relationship and have been unable to make friends or socialise after the death (or departure) of the monogamous partner, whereas people who have always been gregarious and sociable and outgoing (and have had the sense not to make their whole social scene about couplehood) generally retain the ability to make new friends all their lives.

Aha! Weird is good - that means it has hit a subconscious something-or-other.
(It might help you to know that I am a trained NLP practitioner so I am not talking completely randomly.)

Perhaps when you were very little, I mean before the age of 4, some adult (not neccessarily your parents) told you that, for e.g., "big girls don't cry" or "nobody likes a crybaby" or even "crying makes you look ugly and no one will like you if you're ugly". When we are very small, usually before 4 but sometimes up until the age of 7, we gain our 'core beliefs' about ourselves. These nearly always come from an "authority figure", someone older, usually an adult relative, who we (in our innocence) think must know what is right.

These core beliefs will then colour all our other beliefs that we create afterwards, and even though we might have learned to think that we are lovely individuals, there might still be a lurking core belief that says "if I'm not XX, then no one will like/love me".

Some core beliefs can come from the most throwaway remarks: my trainer told of her daughter, who at age 4 came down during an intimate dinner between her mother and new partner and was told "not now darling, we want some time alone". Kindly, but the DD took it on board as she was not wanted in this new relationship and it stuck with her until she was 16 and able to tell her ma and step-pa (same partner) about it. She remembered the incident: many people don't have conscious memories of these incidents.

Let's see if that's created any more weirdosity...

"I really won't go to counselling or life coaching or anything of that nature. Thats why I am here really, to try and get help without having to actually talk about it in RL".

I find that written comment made by you very sad because by writing that you sell your own self short. Putting your hand up and admitting that there is a problem is the first step. You have taken that on board by writing on here.

I still maintain this is mainly to do with your relationship with your Dad. Your father did and continues to help you out in practical terms BUT did he ever do anything for you emotionally?. Did he ever tell you that he loved you?. Did he give you lots of cuddles or did he tell you to run along and play?. You may well have seen him as a remote figure on an emotional level and you strived constantly to get his emotional approval. Your Dad may well have been a wonderful parent but he could have also been emotionally unavailable to you by suppressing his own feelings. This may well be why you felt unable to cry in front of others.

I think that Thumbwitch's recent reply was very well put. I get the feeling you're afraid of counselling because you will have to open up to a stranger and you feel you don't need to do that face to face. You;re "strong" you see and this will show vulnerability. Vulnerablity though is not weakness.

Are you afraid that something is going to be unlocked if you talk in RL; something that if seen will act in the style of Pandoras box. I think you need to get to the heart of the matter because if not you will continue to be at heart emotionally unfulfilled.

Hmm, I don't entirely blame the OP for being resistant to the idea of counselling. I am going to have to have some soon and dislike the idea but cannot escape it.
My resistance to the idea stems mainly from having met some counsellors (not consulted them in their professional capacity but met through work) and have had some friends with mental health issues or problems who have been to counsellors, and the thing is that some counsellors are utter fucking idiots.
SO I'd be inclined to say, only consult one when you are really feeling awful, try and get either a personal recommendation or go through a GP (because anyone can call themselves a counsellor) and if you think the first one you talk to is full of shit, look for a different one.

I would agree with your comments madamez, counsellors are like shoes. A person needs to find a counsellor that fits.

BACP are worth considering.

#Oh but it's easy to rationalise when you haven't been deceived yourself. But that fact is you don't react in a rational way when that happens, you act in an emotional one - anyone that denies that must have some kind of agenda or in denial about the pain they inflict. Of course you?d blame her ? you?d blame him too. It?s really not something you can call in a rational moment.

And the huge excluded middle in Madamez' argument - as usual - is that of course it's okay to flirt, but we are also moral animals sex drives or not, we know the difference between right and wrong. I'm quite understanding of people falling in love and having affairs, but pursuing someone in a long term relationship especially (maybe only) with kids involved who is maybe going through a bad patch isn?t any way to act really, not if you are a decent person.

Flirting and pursuing are two very different things. We can all be weak and stupid in moments of low self-esteem or emotional crisis. No one deserves a medal for exploiting that. How do you define a functional adult? Are we functional all the time, or do we have ups and downs? Of course we do. And all relationships, especially with kids go through hard times, that?s life - it isn?t necessarily a signal of a relationship failing.

I have had a lot of come on?s from men over my life ? was stunningly beautiful in my 20s and men used to go to quite ridiculous lengths to be near me. How many times did I have to hear them say that they wouldn?t be a man if they didn?t find me attractive. I reckon that?s a universal line. A lot of ?attached? men and some with families ? I never indulged them but did start to recognise a pattern that they were just general ?players? .

Fancying beautiful people is also not a ?crime? in monogamy. Your problem has nothing to do with monogamy, it?s about how you feel about yourself, which doesn?t seem great.

NNFH - I have another question for you - if you do meet a man, apparently single, and he doesn't appear to find you attractive, what do you do?
How does it make you feel?
Do you find that you try harder and harder to get him interested?
If he still doesn't respond, how do you feel then?
My point here is, what feelings come to the surface if a man rejects you even though you are looking your best and being your most attractive?
Or has this never happened to you?

MT, at the risk of hijacking the thread (shall we scoot off to Wankers' Corner?) the difference between 'flirting' and 'pursuing' is very subjective: some people feel that a long and intense and enjoyable conversation is a breach of monogamy, others think anything short of actual penetration is 'not cheating'.
And I think the OP said that she has never knowingly gone after anyone who was committed elsewhere: if you sleep with someone and only find out afterwards that they were supposedly in a prior exclusive relationship then the moral failing is 100% theirs.

Thumbwitch - honestly, this has never happened. What a thing to say but honestly, I can't think of a time where I've been told someone didn't think I was attractive.
Also, that is very sad about your trainers daughter, and also very worrying, that any little think I say to my son could affect his entire life

MT - I would never and have never knowingly pursued any man who is in a serious relationship. Ever.

Atilla - My dad told me he loved me all the time. He was very affectionate, we would cuddle and give kisses all the time. He would lie in bed with us and read stories, and if I was scared of the dark (which I never really was but I would pretend) he would stay and cuddle me till I was asleep. I was (still am) an absolute princess to my dad, and can't work out why this would have something to do with him, though I am aware that normally womens relationship problems stem back to their fathers.
You are right about one thing, I am concerned that if I start to talk about things, maybe I will open some kind of pandoras box, and that is a rather frightening thought.

Basically there comes a point where the unhappiness your behaviour pattern is causig you becomes big enough to make the annoyance/unhappiness/other unpleasant consequences of the behaviour pattern worth enduring.
Despite all the mundane propaganda, casual sex is not wrong in itself any more than wanting a monogamous couple relationship is wrong in itself. What matters is how you see it.

I hope I am not repeating anything that has already been said but I was wondering if women liked you and enjoyed being in your company? You sound confident but do you have low esteem and not much confidence but put on an act of confidence - Like role playing? There is obviously quite a lot bothering you about the way you act and it does sound a bit self-destructive and shallow. How much debt are you in?

havent read all of the posts but i wanted to reply. i fekt a bit sorry for you actually and i dont mean in a nasty way i actually mean sympathetic. you talk about making a man to make you feel differently, to make you see yourself differently and it is like all your self worth is tied up in how you look. like your noone if someone doesnt think your pretty. I am sure you are but surely a connection like you seem to want is going to be about more then how expensive the makeup you use is. no matter how hard you try age is going to get you and if your relying solely on your looks its going to be pretty lonely. do you have hobbies. you sound very popular so you must be a nice person - doesnt that count for more? i jsut felt a bit sad that someone who obviously has a lot going for them was so focussed on what a man would think and not about liking who they really are as opposed to what they look like? more to life imo

and i read through some of the (highly intelligent for this time of morning) posts. i started seeing a therapist recently to help me work through why i went into an emotionally abusive relationship with a man who didnt, couldnt and wouldnt love me and nearly destroyed me in the process. i am succesful and would say i have self esteem but i allowd this to happen. i am not mentally ill but i accepted that for some reason i didnt like myself very much and was seeking approval from someone i would never get it from for the wrong reasons. my councellor is an amazing person. she doesnt tell me how to run my life or judge me - she listens and allows me to come to my own conclusions suggesting things along the way. what i am trying to say is 1. it happens to the best of us and 2. a good councellor is worth their weight in gold. try a few but definately try to find someone to help you work through your issues. it wont solve it overnight but will help you look at yourself ina different way.

How old are you? Do you have kids?

have read most of the thread, but not all of the latter posts so forgive me if i'm posting something already said.

I've had some ahem, issues with attracting the wrong men of late, so will pass on the same advise I had to you.

STOP!!! stop looking, stop going out if you really must of a night, you need to re learn to be happy & content by yourself, without the need for male attention - which I think tbh is something to do with your childhood. in a round about way I had issues with mine.

there is a prob I feel with your self esteem. apparently paul mcceanna (sp) has done a good book on it - where you write down one positive fantastic thing about your self in the mornings, then the next morning you repeat it and add to the list, and soon you believe it. not tried it myself. You are worth more than this, and in true JK fashion, you don't need to 'give' yourself to a man for them to like/fancy you - but I am thinking that by them sleeping with you it;s the proof you need that you are desired/fancied. eventually this behaviour will put you back to square one, and you'll be so low the depression etc will come back - althou i do wonder, if a way you got over your depression was to shop and have attention from men - so you're worried if it stops?? I don't know random thoughts there. if i'm up the wrong tree please say.

oh and the confidence thing, my XP on the surface was the most outgoing and confident person there was going, but scratch the surface, and I found an insecure man, go a little deeper, and I found a scared little boy wanting to use sex as a way to feel loved & special. He was v v insecure, and liked to be fully in control - this was due to low self esteem. it's very draining emotionally to be with someone like that.

also re the debts, might be worth looking at those. we all like to look/feel nice, but at what price? I really feel thou if you won't seek therapy you need to step back from everything and do some really hard and painful thinking.

oh finally, an old male school friend of mine (known each other 20 years or more) when I asked about my circs form a male pov, he said one statement about his current partner.

'I had to wait 3 weeks for a kiss good night' coming from the man who I know he is I knew what he meant - she valued herself worth grately. & he was so keen on her he waited. You will find a man like that.

IS that some reference to Bukake Madamez? I ain't doing any amount of talking there!

(the spelling of bukake may be wrong as I really wnat to avoid googling to word for fear of what might pop up!)

Sorry everyone - thanks for all the replies. I have been working all weekend..

MT - I am 26 and I have one child.

DTM - I don't intentionally 'look' for men, most of the time. I am happy with myself, I am very content in my own company. I work full time, and as this is mainly the place where I meet men, I can't really do much about it. And I do go out socially quite often, with friends, female and male, and am approached by men, most of whom I practically ignore. But, some are nice and so those are the ones I will chat to.

Though I am willing to consider the possibility of self-esteem issues, I don't know how I can have these. I like myself, I am confident inside and outside, I think I am pretty, and I dress well and look good. I could make a list of things about myself that are good, but don't think there would be much need to repeat them to myself every day as I already think them about myself. (God I sound conceited.. )

The depression I had was PND and didn't really have much to do with anything else in my life. Shopping and male attention are something I have always done/had, long before I was pregnant. If anything, when I had PND went out less.

The only thing I can think is that maybe I am doing as your XP did, although if I am I don't know I am. Maybe I am trying to make myself feel better?

The debts are just credit cards and such like, Its not that bad and I am trying not to use credit cards any more, I earn a reasonable amount. However, I would like to save more rather than spend thousands every month on clothes and shoes and things.

I honestly cannot work out why I need to feel desired all the time, and why I am attracted to the ones who don't want me and not to the ones who do. Maybe it is as Madamez says, and this is the way I am. Or, maybe I just haven't found the right guy yet.