Online dating in your 50s

[Ffobele]

I guess this is a but of a relationship AIBU. Or maybe an AIB Old Fashioned!

I'm new to online dating after coming out of a 25 year marriage and I've had a couple of chats with guys online and on the phone. I am finding that there is a directness that I am really not used to and wondered if this is normal?

I figured that these preliminary chats would be about who we are, what we do, a little bit of life history, finding an emotional connection, seeing if we connect before we meet etc. Baby steps. But instead there seems to be an almost dogged focus on the physical side of things even at this early stage. These guys have been respectful and polite but talking about sexual compatibility, preferences etc before we've even met feels a bit presumptuous to me.

I get that in our 50s we all have a better idea of what we are after in a relationship and maybe there's a sense of urgency at this age or something, but what happened to good old fashioned flirting and finding stuff out bit by bit? Is it the norm to be setting out your stall so early?

Women need to realise that men are not like us! They want sex. To them, a relationship is a means of getting regular sex. Their ideal scenario would be regular sex with a series of different partners but as that takes constant time, effort and money, they settle for one partner. They'll put in the effort short term to secure this and then reduce the effort to a minimum. By that stage many women are already embedded in the relationship and so it's hard to leave. Men really aren't interested in love and companionship. They want sex. And in later years, a nurse with a purse. Don't be naive about them. The notion that there are a 'few good ones' on OLD who are genuinely looking for a relationship is also naive.

I'm not sure I agree entirely with the first part of this. Many will be chancing their arm, but I imagine in the OP's age bracket a good proportion of the men will be coming out of sexless or very low sex marriages (for whatever reason that is) and are somewhat ham fistedly trying to make sure they don't end up in the same position again.

That has no link to ending up in a sexless relationship though. The reasons why that happens are complex.

You can say upfront you expect a certain amount of sex but how does that realistically have anything to do with what could happen years down the road?

Maybe they were in a sexless relationship because they weren’t pulling their weight and expected a maid. Have they reflected on their own role in this?

it’s tone deaf and pretty clueless to talk about this before even meeting someone. Not to mention creepy.

@Ffobelehave a look at ‘Burned Haystack’. It’ll tell you everything you need to know about dating men x

And this is why I will be single for the rest of my life.

Dp was nothing like this. We have a great relationship. I see internet dating as exactly like the mega clubs of the 80s, which were also full of chancers looking for a shag.

TBH I have put men off with the directness of my sexual chat (on hookup sites though, surely that’s expected? He blocked me anyway) so I’m not immediately put off by sex chat. But then I’ve been doing dating by advert since 1994 - I don’t think I have ever been asked for a date by anyone I’ve met in real life after leaving university. I’m not as horrific to look at as that suggests either They used to say they were ‘tactile’ ‘passionate’. I put passion in my profile as well because I have had dates with people who don’t seem to have any interest in anything - not even sex - and that’s not for me.

I genuinely don’t object to an upfront discussion of a few basics, so I guess I’m the problem. But I have all the needs of life covered, plenty of friends, I’m busy. The bells need to ring in bed or there’s no point.

And going straight in with sex talk to a complete stranger will absolutely rule out many women who are looking for a great sex like with a partner but have boundaries around getting to know someone first.

There’s a strange unrealistic view on MN that women who don’t want sex talk with men they’ve never met aren’t interested in sex and it’s a bizarre take

"Holding a fish'" I think that's quite nice, unless its in a weird sexual way 😂

This is an interesting take, for me. I met my partner by chance out at a music event (he was 50, I was 47). One of the things I loved about him from the start was that he was completely unsleazy, no sex chat, we texted for two weeks before meeting again and he was genuinely interested in getting to know all about me.

We did sleep together the first proper "date" and sex was amazing from the start (now four years in). He is a lovely partner, thoughtful, attentive, affectionate, trustworthy, reliable.

We both had emerged from sexless long-term relationships. He spent two years OLD before meeting me and recently he told me that he sometimes used to quiz women about their sexual preferences on the first date because he was trying to be careful never to end up in a sexless relationship again. If he'd done that to me I would have immediately dumped him! God knows how many women he put off.

With respect this is largely nonsense.
A relationship is a means to getting regular sex whether you are male or female. Obviously it's more as well but that is a definite bonus imo.

As for 'men aren't interested in love and companionship' WTH? Like women, some men are and some aren't.

I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences with men to have formed these low opinions.

Just realised there’s a good % of people I know with a photo of them and a Carp on their profile.

Others tend to have a picture of them with a dog, which presumably alienates cat lovers?

I’m likely going to set up a profile in a few weeks, so this thread has at least highlighted I need to give considerable thought to what pictures I choose!

Caveat: I am no expert, just have been reading a lot (medium, the conversation, feminist blogs, scientific papers, reddit, anything) to learn more about how these apps work, after leaving all of them after a few months of me using them and feeling manipulated by the apps.

At our age the odds on the apps are stacked against us. Men our age may not see us as they have set their filters for a lower age range, there are many men on the apps who are in a relationship, just looking for sex, or looking for the proverbial nurse with a purse. So there is likely only a minority of men who will appeal. The burned haystack method mentioned on here aims to identify those men and discard the rest. However, what if there are some good men on the apps, but you just don't get to see them? And they don't see you? That would rig the game obviously, but make money for the apps as people keep hoping and swiping and generating revenue.

One thing that always gets overlooked on these threads here is that the apps manipulate you and who you see with the aim of getting you on the app as much possible, ideally pay and stay as long as possible, to provide a steady stream of revenue. You may have noticed that when you started the people on the apps seemed quite good. I personally have found that on Bumble and Hinge, and after a month or so and a few dates, suddenly it is mostly men in their cars, in their bathrooms, with a single unappealing picture, aka low quality matches. This may be deliberate by the app's algorithm, you get the good ones first to get you hooked, and then a steady stream of low quality matches with the odd good one. That way you stay on the app and don't give up, until there are not enough good matches, and then delete the app. That has happened to me a few times, and I am no longer of the apps as I do not appreciate being manipulated.

The apps will show you many low quality matches, with the occasional good one, and your profile will be shown to mostly low-quality matches (who then get frustrated because "women are too choosy"), and perhaps the occasional good match. Also, your likes may not be seen by the good matches, as they likely get a lot of likes, or they are not shown your like at all. Again, all to keep you on the app.

Years ago I was on Guardian Soulmates (2010-ish), and I paid £30 per month or so, which was expensive at the time. However, I met several good matches immediately and was off the app within a month. I think dating apps were like this up until 2018 or so and then something changed, instead of having people pay to find a mate, the business model changed to get users hooked on the app and ensure that they stayed on the app as long as possible. So the apps say they want you to find a partner, but do everything they can to keep you on the app as long as possible and not find a partner. People who find a partner are not making money for the app and the shareholders as they will leave the app.

So I think there are several main types of users on apps, very broadly speaking:

• The high quality matches, attractive, with a good profile, clearly looking for a partner and stating their intentions, good pictures, etc. For men this may be successful attractive men in their 40s-50s, for women the same, except younger. This rating is based on likes, some apps use something called an Elo score (a zero sum score taken from chess originally), a small percentage of users
• Middle ranking users who do not pay (people like me, too old, not pretty enough but with decent photos and profile), most users
• Low-ranking users who pay (one picture, poor profile, etc.), mostly men, I'd say 25% of users

If you are not paying, you are the product and the app will try to get you to stay by bread crumbing just enough potential matches to keep you on the app. Even though you are not paying, they can still make money out you to by showing you to the paying low-ranking males, who keep hoping one day one of us will see how great they are and match with them.

I could go on for a while, but this is already too long. In conclusion, I think the game is rigged against us over 50s. Our best bet is to get off the apps, go join a club, try a new sport, get out there, ask friends if they know someone. Good men are not on the apps, or if they were they were snapped up soon, or got disillusioned like us. The people where who say they found a good one were the lucky ones (1 in a 100) who defied the odds and beat the game, but it is not a common experience, unfortunately.

@Beesd great summary - I think you are largely right and it makes depressing reading. Let's also add into the mix the percentage of profiles that are clearly AI or fake.

Also, after me talking to a friend about the poor calibre on offer, suddenly my Bumble feed is full of very attractive men.

@Plasticdreams - I have a similar tick list. Where do you find such unicorns men?
Also what is the benefit of being incognito on Bumble?

The sudden appearance of attractive profiles could be a) a glitch of the app, or b) the algorithm noticing a decrease in engagement and trying to sweet-talk you into staying. You will likely notice that over the next few days the appearance of these good profiles will reduce again, as you are hooked again.

The apps' algorithm as I see it shows similarities with an emotionally abusive partner: they withhold affection (the good men), until you threaten to walk away (delete the app), and they they will show affection again (some good matches), and the cycle repeats.

I've given up, life is too short for this, I am going on group hikes, am going bouldering, and will take up rowing soon. Because even if I do not find a partner, at least I had fun (instead of sitting and swiping) while doing it and met some new people.

I love your attitude.

Why should you lower your standards/values to engage with creeps. Enjoy your freedom to make your own choices.

This abusive partner comparison is fascinating from a sociological perspective, and very close to how we understand algorithms to work.

Apologies if this is your area of work/study etc! Just wanted to say your instincts are incredibly accurate here.

In terms of online dating more generally, I don’t really think it serves anyone, least of all women.

What guff.

If some random stranger starts chatting to you about anything you don't want to talk about, it gives you the perfect opportunity to see how they handle a polite decline. You just say "I'm not ready to talk about that yet" and if they can't handle a polite no thank you, then they are not worth getting to know. Great way to suss out wankers early on.

I'm so glad I started this thread. It's fascinating, especially the analogy with emotional abuse. Depressing but also fascinating.

@Elektra1 I am also intrigued that you are finding the same with women too. I would not expect that.

I wonder if that is just the inherent laziness of the human race at play with people who put no effort into selling themselves at all or just want to skip to the good bit (sex) without apparently tedious process of flirtation and courtship.

That's very interesting thank you. I've never used a dating app but what you've posted makes complete sense, especially once you acknowledge the apps are purely business ventures and not altruistic tools for the single.

I'm not saying it's effective or wise! Just explaining the thought process. A relationship counsellor explains it here better than I can: https://drpsychmom1.substack.com/p/should-you-say-you-like-sex-in-your

I'm a scientist, but not a social one, although I work on AI tangentially, I just find this area fascinating. I find it twisted that people monetise our desire to find a partner by using manipulation techniques know to make people addicted. (See also: other social media, betting industry).

@Ffobele I met both on bumble under the incognito setting. The benefit is you aren’t out there for anyone to see. You swipe right and if they like you back, you’re matched. All very discreet. I set the filter to the highest education level and it seems to filter out the riff raff 😂

It’s not true that men are literally only interested in sex and having someone cook/clean for them! I have men in my life that are definitely interested in love, friendship and a caring relationship and they say that (talking about brother and sons). If I had only experienced men via dating apps I would definitely believe that they were awful though as my experience has been very much like the OPs. Yes, I’m interested in sex BUT I do not want to engage in sex talk with some bloke that I’ve never met in person and probably wouldn’t be interested in if I did. These men are just disrespectful and grim, I much prefer being single to scrapping the bottom of that barrel.

Women need to realise that men are not like us! They want sex.

I'm a woman. I want sex. I've already got lots of friends. I don't really want to spend weeks getting to know someone and then find out they're crap in bed.

I would prefer not to have sex with someone with ED, either, which is a risk at our age. It's one thing if you've had a long relationship already, but frankly, I want a decent erection at the start, even if it doesn't last forever.

There are decent men out there, but you do have to look through a lot of the haystack before you get to the needle.