Adult female friendships - keep getting dumped

[Threebear]

I have had an unfortunate couple of years in terms of adult female friendships. I’m going wrong somewhere and cannot seem to pinpoint the issue. Apologies for the long post to start. I F35 have been quite literally dumped by not 1 but 3 separate friends over the period of 2 years.

The first was a friend from childhood (from age 7) who I slowly lost contact with when I moved abroad (age 17) and reconnected with later on when I was pregnant 6 years ago. This was a best friend from childhood who also moved abroad to a very distant country to the one I’m based in. I visited her a couple of times as she lives near a very central world airport so was an easy trip to make when travelling places. Last trip as the previous was really lovely, however she was very stressed at work, and was worried she would miscarry due to previous miscarriage . She ghosted me after this trip and I presumed life stresses got the better. I sent a message once a month for 2 months, then another after 3 more months and then another after 6 months and no reply. Then I gave up. She did not miscarry in the end, rather had a beautiful baby and as far as I know, no postpartum issues. That was 18 months ago (2 years since ghosting) and I’m stumped as to what happened. All my messages were kind words asking how she is and saying I miss her a lot by the end one.

Second friendship from a different culture (and language), a dear friend for 3 years, decides to leave the country we live in permanently and quite literally dumps me the week of leaving stating the words very angrily “I don’t want to be your friend anymore”. Context is complicated as I was helping her out somewhat. I thought it was a classic case of don’t mix business with friends and she was mentally suffering a lot for her own personal issues, so thought probably closely connected with that. This was a year ago.

This year, another friend (from a third country and language which I think important to mention as its cross-cultural my issue) who has lived all around the world, finally moves to where I live. 8 years of long distance friendship and we both were so excited. I unfortunately mixed business and friends here as well (won’t be doing that again) and it caused a business disagreement which ended in her very nicely telling me “it just won’t be like it was but I do care about you”. I proceeded to go no contact and told her so in a very sobby lovely message (her message was also written very kindly) as didn’t want some half hearted friendship where the person states almost that they just don’t like me sometimes (I repeat, said in much kinder words but that was the general content).

Lastly, a group of women from my original country live here. Some I like more than others. All our kids are at school together. They appear to have formed quite a bond and happily discuss in front of me about their trips and WhatsApp group and birthday parties despite me never being invited even to the WhatsApp group. I really enjoy the company of some of them and would be quite like to invite them over or go for 1-1 drinks etc, and start a real friendship but it’s been 2 years of just no one ever inviting me despite sharing many tables with them in cafes while kids are at activities in eve.

I just feel I’m not liked. I have 3-4 male friends who I love the company of and vice-versa. I’m quite neurotic, intense and love asking questions about other people, discussing politics (not heavily opinionated however). These male friendships are great, we talk family, trauma, sport, politics and everything in between. I’ve never ever been dumped by a male friend.

I am totally perplexed as to why since age 30 I cannot make or keep any female friends. I take a big interest in people, love listening to their stories; I’m chatty and help out (taking other people’s kids to school or clubs, even bloody giving a job and renting an apartment cheapily to help friends - the 2 failed friendships above have to do with this).

My sister doesn’t like me yet my brother adores me. I always had female friends growing up, the issue with women began post having a child. My friendships are definitely more 1-1 than group since I was a young child. Friendship problems throughout twenties were few and far between. Really nothing that sticks to say there was any major issues in this period.

Feedback I have received after discussing with other close friends who live sadly in a different time zone / therapist / male friends : I am intense both for love and hate, intelligent, good humor, introverted extrovert, very very honest and blunt. Baseline I’m definitely more angry than most women I’d say and maybe this comes out. My “reactions” sometimes upset people. This means just stating if I’m unhappy with someone or something, and probably too bluntly for most people’s liking. I’ve got no problem communicating with people. I don’t shout or argue with any of these friends and never have. I’ve never got angry with any of them. I also tend to view silly selfish things as a personal attack and will often just not be able to forgive if a friend / acquaintance lets me down. But this is all in private, I don’t go explaining this to anyone and I accept maybe my feelings are on display but this is odd occasions with past friends, non of the above I have felt this about.

I’m just at a loss at to what’s happened with my dynamic around women since having a kid / turning 30. Are other people finding friendships hard in this age range / other people starting to only find friends in men over the years?

I know it’s impossible to know what’s really going on without knowing a person but maybe someone has some experience and insight into why women are dumping me and others just make no active attempt to be my friend despite seeing me daily / weekly and enjoying coffees at times with me (with the whole group there)?

thanks for any feedback

Well @Threebear in that case you sound great and I'm pretty sure we'd be friends if we lived near each other. You probably just haven't found your tribe yet which isn't really that uncommon I don't think.

I'm 22 years older than you and started wondering about the white knighting thing when I started reading and commenting on various sites such as Mumsnet about 15 years ago. I learned the term "white knight" in the context of men helping women with a (possibly subconscious) eye on getting a romantic partner they feel superior to and can control.

I also had an older sister who, as my mother put it, "collected waifs and strays" and spent inordinate time and effort sitting with and therapising people. But it felt - and in fact was - manipulative and controlling and exploitative. Later she was diagnosed with a personality disorder (possibly covert NPD).

So both of these things resulted in my eventual realisation that caring behaviour can be performative and self-serving. But I didn't realise yet that I was also capable of that.

I grew up in similar circumstances as you and OP: by the time I was 18, I'd lived on 4 continents as an expat. I think such a childhood has a profound effect on your personality and the way you deal with people in adulthood because of the impermanence of relationships and geography and the feeling of not belonging to any culture (third-culture kid syndrome). On the one hand, it can give you a certain worldliness, confidence, independence, and an emotional and mental resilience that can make you seem invulnerable to others. On the other hand, you're accustomed to and even anticipating relationships being shortlived, which makes you intense and trying-very-hard-to-keep-the-friendship when you meet someone you click with. This, and your background, also mean that you don't fit readily in established cultures where most people haven't left their home town/country. So, to fit in, you (subconsciously) adapt your behaviour to be more pleasing and acceptable. If you stay in one spot a long time, this approach can work: you're still a bit of an oddity but you've integrated enough to make friends and to feel somewhat part of the community.

But it also means that you've learned (had to learn) to mime pleasing - but not fully authentic - behaviours.

I always had a best (girl) friend growing up but being an expat, they came and went. It was painful when one left, because it was impossible to effectively keep in touch in those days. But eventually I would find another best friend. I can map that period of my life in chapters according to who was my best friend at the time.

In my mid teens, my family and I emigrated to the 4th continent. Up until then, my best friends had been expats like me. Now I was among people who'd not left their town let alone the country. I felt more foreign in this place where I looked like everyone else than I felt when I lived in places where I was an obvious foreigner. I nonetheless made new best friends. But I think partly because of my perceived invulnerability and strength, I tended to attract girls/women who were softer, perhaps a bit dependent, often damaged by traumatic childhood and other experiences. I was reciprocally attracted to girls/women like that because they made ME feel strong. I also enjoyed their admiration, and the feeling of being accepted. Also, I had my own traumatic childhood experiences, and I guess I was subconsciously working through them by supporting others through their own traumas.

These were obviously not equal relationships: I was dominant, often the therapist. The relationships either petered out because of me moving all around the country and then later overseas for studies and work. Or they flamed out (or flamed and then petered out) when there was a conflict that led to hard feelings on my side and me walking away. Looking back, those conflicts were either because (i) my friend behaved in a way that challenged my idealised view of her (e.g. she said something racist) and/or (ii) my friend felt the inequality in the friendship and was pushing back, and that made me feel threatened.

My last best friendship flamed then petered out for both reasons. That was 10 years ago, and it hurt and disappointed me, because I'd really tried so hard and it was such a meaningful relationship to me. I initially blamed her but now really understand that I had contributed at least 50% to the debacle. I had idealised her and had lacked the maturity (and commitment) to reach across the divide when she disappointed me with quite a few things; and I had been trying to be superior to her and invulnerable, which was obnoxious.

After that, I felt burned and reticent about getting a new best friendship for quite a while. I also moved to yet another continent with H, 3 kids, pets etc, which together with perimenopause took all my energy to just keep myself upright. Then I started a business, which continues to absorb much of my time and energy.

I now have two somewhat close female friends, although neither I nor them would consider us best friends. That ride-or-die love isn't there, although we care about each other. But it is with them and other friendships that started and then didn't work out that I realised that I was miming emotional intimacy via therapising, that I was positioning myself as superior, and that I had done that in my previous friendships too.

I don't think I am ready yet to be a best friend. I know that I disappointed my previous best friends, particularly the last one, and that upsets me. I think I still need to grow up emotionally 😂 It's probably funny maybe to hear a 59 yo saying this, but I am living proof that some of us need a very long time to grow up!

Anyway. Having a best female friend is wonderful. My H is my best friend too but as much as he tries, it's not the same. I often have to explain things to him that women just understand immediately. I hope, once the kids move out and I can take things easier, that I will find a best female friend again. And this time, I think - I hope - I will be wiser and a better friend!

But you said two didn’t, so for you and your other friend to go on about kid/parent/pregnancy related stuff would have been pretty tone deaf. If all four of you had been mothers those topics would have probably been dwelled on a lot more don’t you think?

This is a really interesting thread from my perspective, thanks a lot for starting, OP

It feels to me like you have left a lot out on your thread about why these friendships ended apart from alluding to mixing business with pleasure.

It may be that you haven’t done this deliberately but perhaps you genuinely don’t understand what went wrong. Perhaps there’s someone you can talk to in order to work it out - perhaps one of these women or someone else close to you.

How was your relationship with your mother? Did she have good female friends and model how to do it to you? I know a lot of my friendship issues are to do with this. I was never shown how to carefully navigate female relationships because my mum couldn't do it either and we didn't get on. I realise from seeing other women eg at book club how carefully they accommodate each other rather than being truthful. I can't do it.

The other thing to consider is being on the autistic spectrum.

I have both!

This is interesting. I have always struggled with friendships. I look at people with loads of close friends and am envious. However, I don’t think it’s in my nature to be that kind of person. I can’t make myself similar to other people. I don’t ‘go along with’, or want what everyone else wants. I mean, I can turn it off and literally ‘go along’ but I’m a bit reserved as a result I think.

Now I’m older, I’m much better at thinking, sod ‘em. I join in where there’s joining in available and do my own thing when not.

I think there may be an internal awkward cuss programme running. I’m not great at following instructions, I tend to go off piste for no obvious reason. Hey ho.

Learn to live without people who don’t want to spend time with you. Don’t invest too heavily in them, or classify them as ‘friends’ which means you put up with shit. People are people not categories, and when they aren’t behaving well you should move along.

No, I don't. No one's kids are that interesting to anyone other than themselves, and I simply don't see anywhere around me the idea that women with children default to talking about them. No disrespect to DS, whom I adore, but there are currently far more absorbing things going on in my life than his teenage melodramas.

I had five female friends around for dinner the weekend before last. We know one another because our children were friends in primary school (and still are, though now at different secondaries). Three of the others also have older and younger children.

From what I remember we talked about Stranger Things, Swedish death cleaning and ageing parents, a current political scandal, midlife career changes, working in the archive of a stately home (one friend has just started doing this) and a claim made by someone I know, that there are visible spikes in local women getting Botox and fillers in the run up to school reunions at the big girls' schools.

I mean, it's not Socrates, and I'm sure the children were mentioned (one is in a band that recently had its first proper gig), but were certainly not among the major topics of conversation.

Very interesting read. I definitely identify even with the white-knighting here despite not seeing it in the previous post of the topic. I wonder if it makes me feel safe to have more vulnerable friends who I can help, and I know “need” me (possibly a fear of abandonment pushes me to have this type of connection, for both the needy love and my control over it) and a lot of my deeper friendships definitely had this vibe over my lifetime.

Maybe it’s the age factor then. Mine is in primary and the other shortly to follow. It’s a small community so a lot of local things revolve around the school and PTA events. I guess this is natural, but also maybe the over protectiveness maybe and laser focus 🤷🏼‍♀️ But my other friends with older kids still focus a lot of conversations on them too. I guess with older kids they are more independent so can organise themselves when it comes to social events and largely look after themselves at home. Parents are also less involved with playground politics as they aren’t there at pick up and drop offs like primary school.

But before children it was fucking weddings.

Your circles are just different to mine, then. It's not that I don't hear you. I did spend several years living in a village environment that sounds similar to what you describe, though I didn't see much of it because I was working and not doing school drop offs and pick ups much and most of the other mothers of DS's classmates seemed to be SAHMs or at least to work very PT. I remained in total ignorance of any playground politics (it's a bit hard to see someone as some kind of all-powerful 'Queen Bee' when she just looks like a normal woman you see across the yard...) I did volunteer, host playdates and help out where possible at school and village events, but I think I was generally considered a bit odd. The environment just didn't suit me, and we ended up moving on when DS was seven.

I got married in jeans with two witnesses, one friend got married on her lunchbreak from work at the register office next door to her practice, several friends aren't married to their longtime partners, a couple got married very quietly in lockdown. Some friends did have big weddings years back, but I don't think it was ever the main topic of conversation, either!

This really is a fantastic discussion so can’t thank you all enough. I’m going to give a bit more detail and my conclusions which in great part have come from this thread:

1. first friendship I honestly don’t know, nothing happened other than sharing a lovely few days. This I would presume is more about her than me. She grew up with me so knows me through and through. It just doesn't make sense so I conclude she may well come back one day and I’ll decide then if it’s worth being her friend given she’s hurt me.

1. friend 2 was subletting a rental of mine. Conditions were clear, cheap price and help with my dog when I go away, that’s it (2 weeks a year). She was having a mental breakdown when she left, paranoid about all her friends, thinking in very scary terms about Israel (antisemitism) and starting to believe conspiracies. She was smoking a lot of pot (I do not touch it) and I think it set off something. She was very damaged from childhood and far from home. Here I was her savior, therapist, mother bear and the last conversation we had was me being very abrasive about her antisemitic comments and her treatment of my dog. Not shouted nor argued but very direct and she was an absolute mess so she couldn’t handle hence the message some days later (at the time she appeared slightly mildly annoyed nothing more). Here we could say it was a white-knight relationship and then an abrasive abruptive end. For her treatment of my dog and not paying rent honestly good riddance though deep down I of course miss her and wish it had never happened.

1. last one gets extra complicated. I sponsered her partner into the country. Gave him a job all in name of our friendship because I wanted my friend to move here. They stupidly went behind my back and messed up something in the process putting my company at risk, it was a silly mistake with huge consequences. I don’t know or really like her partner so that didn’t help. I was very direct in telling them how it wasn’t ok and that I demand they rectify. She didn’t like it and just stopped talking (nor me to her for I was bloody pissed off for a long time). Months pass and I let go and decide to make peace. She then tells me “she sometimes isn’t sure about how I react to things as she wouldn’t do it the same way and that she cares but she’s not sure it’ll be how it was”. Having done what I did I expected a real best friend from her for many years so receiving a “we can be aquaintances” wasn’t enough for me. I had out too much into it and my black and white view of life means I just couldn’t step down from besties to light friends.

The abrasive comment I definitely most identify with. It’s the first contact where people I’m sure think I give an air of anger or superiority (just body language). Once they properly talk to me it’s like a light switch goes on. After this I definitely do a bit of over helping over therapist possibly for reasons discussed but this is with very precise deep intimate friendships that no doubt make me feel loved and needed.

i have lighthearted friends, they include these mums and 2 other women I see once every 2 months maybe. I have lots of female friends abroad. I just don’t click click with the ones here, to anyone else they’d just be happy but for me as I’m now missing closer friendships I’m possibly looking at pushing that on people I clearly don’t like “that” much. I have concluded right now I just don’t have a bestie nor any lady in my life that could fit that gap. I just don’t share the mummy vibe with them and that’s fine, I’d rather just enjoy the coffee ever week or 2 and be done unless something more comes one day which I would of course be open too if I too felt the click. But so far hasn’t happened.

the main sport I do is DH biking, it’s very very man oriented sport. To give an example there is only 3 women in the resort I go to who live in this country that practice it, 3 that’s it… and I fell out with 2 of them years ago 😂 (one dumped me because I was vulnerable and the other was very vulnerable at the time and no doubt my abrasion was too much).

I know I’m marmite, I’ve always known it. I just have to accept right now today for the first time ever I’ve found myself without a best friend women and that’s ok. I’ll find another maybe or maybe not. My partner is my bestie and my guy friends and man (gay) business partner. I mention gay as he def. Brings female vibes to the table 😂.

For some reason my really long comment just Messed up, going to quit while I’m ahead, but sometimes things just aren’t related to each other and looking for patterns is a waste of time

Ok, a couple of potential patterns ) blind spots for you to consider from your last post:

1. Over investment and the creation of obligation with the expectation of loyalty. I don't think most people experience friendship this way or enjoy feeling in debt to their friend. The way friends two and three behaved was terrible yet may not have happened if they hadn't been in this position that you mutually created with them.

1. Black and white thinking. If the only acceptable category for some of your friendships is “best friend,” many relationships will fail. I don't think many adult women have the time or emotional energy for that kind of closeness.

1. You identify as abrasive and "marmite." Do you think you're just being honest when you're blunt and telling it like it is and are you resistant to seeing other's viewpoints and valuing harmony?

Overall though I think this sounds normal. Friend 1 either grew apart from you and you didn't realize it or didn't know how to back away from your intensity which didn't feel rewarding as you live far away. Friends 2 and 3 behaved badly but obligation twists friendship and this was pretty predictable. Mostly I just think your expectations of closeness in adult friendships are unrealistic and you're doing just fine as you are.

I don't want to overly push the white-knighting/superiority thing, but the third friendship is also white-knighting. There was a clear imbalance in that relationship: you were the gracious benefactor, she became the grateful recipient of your largesse. Sponsoring her H introduced obligation into the equation.

It might be worth wondering why you agreed to/offered something that would so significantly imbalance the relationship.

It's flattering to have someone be grateful to you, admire you, need you. And it's particularly soothing and reassuring to those who have abandonment fears, which I also have and which are a major cause of me needing to be invulnerable and superior.

But it results in unequal relationships that will eventually peter/flame out. True friendships can't be built on such inequality.

You remind me very slightly of an ex friend that I parted with about 3 years ago, on mutual terms. She would describe me as too much of a people pleaser. I would describe her as intense, blunt and honest to the point of being hurtful and unlikeable. Prior to our “breakup” she sat me down to tell me all of my perceived flaws and faults, including that I wasn’t intellectually stimulating enough for her. I don’t think my self esteem has taken that much of a battering before or since. She would hide behind being neurodivergent as an excuse for everything she said. She had trouble keeping friends, and none of her family seemed to like her.

From the other side, I don’t want friends who are intense and tell me everything that is wrong with me and my life. I know my faults already and don’t need to be told them 😆 but friends need to add to your life, be a source of support and fun, not constant hard work and an additional source of stress. My friends make me roll my eyes inwardly sometimes and there’s always going to be things that you don’t agree on and don’t have in common. But friendships work by overlooking the stuff you don’t share and bonding over stuff you do. If a friendship has waned it’s absolutely ok to let it go in a nice way. You mention this has happened since becoming 30ish which is also the time people typically have kids and often climbing the ladder at work so a lot of pressures in their lives - friends need to be low maintenance at this point.

It sounds like you have a lot of self awareness, so I’m sure you will take some of these comments on board. Best of luck.

I used to have a friend who had BPD who would insist on my attention whenever and for as long as she wanted it. Once she rang me over and over again while I was trying to get my shopping in Tesco insisting that I drop everything to speak to her and then it turned out she didn't have anything in particular she needed to talk about. You wouldn't do anything like that, would you?

Yeah I dumped a “friend” who was like this. Brash, loud, opinionated, didn’t particularly care who she offended, bitchy and had vastly differing morals to me which came to a huge head. Bye bye 👋 and good riddance

Thank you for starting such an interesting thread, and huge thanks to @LouiseMadetheBestBroccoliPasta for such a thought-provoking post.

As a fellow ND woman, I’ll be honest: I think neurotypical women can smell us. They may not identify it as neurodivergence - it cold be something that makes them uneasy or irritates them but they can tell. They can spot inauthentic masking, too. If you are aware of certain tendencies, by all means try to dial it back a bit - but you are who you are, at the end of the day.

Don’t be afraid to have boundaries - you don’t have to help everyone you could help, or sort everything out. It sounds like some of your issues have come from blurring of boundaries.

I’ve found it easier to focus on the phrase about friends being for a reason, a season or a lifetime. If you really think about this, you’ll see most friendships fall into one of these categories and a lot are about being in the same place or same stage of life together for a time, and then you move on. Most friendships won’t develop into lifetime friendships - that’s ok. But it’s nice to have people to walk with on this particular stretch.

Check out adhd and rejection sensitivity as it may put some things into context. Friendships with new groups take time to develop and if you’re a newcomer you do have to put yourself out there, but it’s hard if you jump to ‘they’re rejecting me’ immediately.

question, are you a second child? Based on anecdotal evidence only this seems to be a much bigger problem with second children than first.

think about what you actually want, is it deep and meaningful connection or is the main thing that you just want people you can catch up with for a coffee and general chit chat. You may have to accept that superficial friendships work for you right now and keep a lid on more philosophical conversations, they’re hard when you’re juggling young kids, work and relationships. And yes, this is absolutely masking but if it serves a purpose it may be needed
im waaaaaay older than you, and my friendships have changed massively during the decades. I probably had the widest friendship group when my children were at primary and it was great but I was absolutely filling the model expected of me. As my children got older I ended up with a host of ‘friends’ where I was basically their on call therapist. I provided the counsel and validation (and sometimes the kick up the arse) they needed. Every single one deserted me when I was struggling. One in particular dumped me when I put boundaries in place (divorce and told I may only have 6 months to live).

if you want practical suggestions, join groups which match your interests which can give you the connection you need. It’ll be in depth on only one facet but that should help ease any feeling of loneliness.

source: 60 something, v abusive childhood and almost certain somewhere on the spectrum but hugely good at masking, just cba any more. Feel free to DM if you want to chat

@LouiseMadetheBestBroccoliPasta What an incredible thoughtful post. It might not have rung true to OP but it def has for me. Thank you.

God no 😅

I find this thread really interesting. I still think you need to be careful of over analysing this stuff, which will dent your confidence further, and avoid soliciting criticism from too many people. But the quote I was trying to write in my post earlier was something by Maya Angelou. ‘People will forget what you said, they’ll forget what you did, but they won’t forget how you made them feel.’ Perhaps that is what links the three situations, you unwittingly, by being generous and able to travel, provide jobs and accommodation, made all three women feel shit. But your intentions were good so don’t beat yourself up about any of it.

Interesting thread, OP. Genuinely.

What I am about to say may seem incredibly cold-hearted - and I would never normally speak to a stranger on the internet like this (unless they had really wound me up) - but, you say you are troubled by what is happening in your friendships, and you would like to unpick it - and you certainly appear to be robust enough to take honest feedback.

From your posts, to me you appear to think you are very different from, and better than, other women. You seem to feel that men like and understand you, whereas women cannot comprehend your unique and special qualities.

You speak of a form of neurodivergence that is rare - yet you won't name it - what is it? Does everyone agree it exists?

You casually mention the fact that you are neurotic - like that is nothing.... (Neurotic people are INCREDIBLY hard to deal with). No sense emerges that you would be willing to change any aspect of your character that may be troubling to others, or hard to deal with.

The overall impression you convey is that you think you are fascinating, unique, superb, and essentially just a lot BETTER than other women (though not, necessarily, than men).

I could be wrong, of course I could, wildly, but that's the impression I get.

If other women get the same impression too, there's your answer.

What is this rare form of neurodiversity called?