Adult female friendships - keep getting dumped

[Threebear]

I have had an unfortunate couple of years in terms of adult female friendships. I’m going wrong somewhere and cannot seem to pinpoint the issue. Apologies for the long post to start. I F35 have been quite literally dumped by not 1 but 3 separate friends over the period of 2 years.

The first was a friend from childhood (from age 7) who I slowly lost contact with when I moved abroad (age 17) and reconnected with later on when I was pregnant 6 years ago. This was a best friend from childhood who also moved abroad to a very distant country to the one I’m based in. I visited her a couple of times as she lives near a very central world airport so was an easy trip to make when travelling places. Last trip as the previous was really lovely, however she was very stressed at work, and was worried she would miscarry due to previous miscarriage . She ghosted me after this trip and I presumed life stresses got the better. I sent a message once a month for 2 months, then another after 3 more months and then another after 6 months and no reply. Then I gave up. She did not miscarry in the end, rather had a beautiful baby and as far as I know, no postpartum issues. That was 18 months ago (2 years since ghosting) and I’m stumped as to what happened. All my messages were kind words asking how she is and saying I miss her a lot by the end one.

Second friendship from a different culture (and language), a dear friend for 3 years, decides to leave the country we live in permanently and quite literally dumps me the week of leaving stating the words very angrily “I don’t want to be your friend anymore”. Context is complicated as I was helping her out somewhat. I thought it was a classic case of don’t mix business with friends and she was mentally suffering a lot for her own personal issues, so thought probably closely connected with that. This was a year ago.

This year, another friend (from a third country and language which I think important to mention as its cross-cultural my issue) who has lived all around the world, finally moves to where I live. 8 years of long distance friendship and we both were so excited. I unfortunately mixed business and friends here as well (won’t be doing that again) and it caused a business disagreement which ended in her very nicely telling me “it just won’t be like it was but I do care about you”. I proceeded to go no contact and told her so in a very sobby lovely message (her message was also written very kindly) as didn’t want some half hearted friendship where the person states almost that they just don’t like me sometimes (I repeat, said in much kinder words but that was the general content).

Lastly, a group of women from my original country live here. Some I like more than others. All our kids are at school together. They appear to have formed quite a bond and happily discuss in front of me about their trips and WhatsApp group and birthday parties despite me never being invited even to the WhatsApp group. I really enjoy the company of some of them and would be quite like to invite them over or go for 1-1 drinks etc, and start a real friendship but it’s been 2 years of just no one ever inviting me despite sharing many tables with them in cafes while kids are at activities in eve.

I just feel I’m not liked. I have 3-4 male friends who I love the company of and vice-versa. I’m quite neurotic, intense and love asking questions about other people, discussing politics (not heavily opinionated however). These male friendships are great, we talk family, trauma, sport, politics and everything in between. I’ve never ever been dumped by a male friend.

I am totally perplexed as to why since age 30 I cannot make or keep any female friends. I take a big interest in people, love listening to their stories; I’m chatty and help out (taking other people’s kids to school or clubs, even bloody giving a job and renting an apartment cheapily to help friends - the 2 failed friendships above have to do with this).

My sister doesn’t like me yet my brother adores me. I always had female friends growing up, the issue with women began post having a child. My friendships are definitely more 1-1 than group since I was a young child. Friendship problems throughout twenties were few and far between. Really nothing that sticks to say there was any major issues in this period.

Feedback I have received after discussing with other close friends who live sadly in a different time zone / therapist / male friends : I am intense both for love and hate, intelligent, good humor, introverted extrovert, very very honest and blunt. Baseline I’m definitely more angry than most women I’d say and maybe this comes out. My “reactions” sometimes upset people. This means just stating if I’m unhappy with someone or something, and probably too bluntly for most people’s liking. I’ve got no problem communicating with people. I don’t shout or argue with any of these friends and never have. I’ve never got angry with any of them. I also tend to view silly selfish things as a personal attack and will often just not be able to forgive if a friend / acquaintance lets me down. But this is all in private, I don’t go explaining this to anyone and I accept maybe my feelings are on display but this is odd occasions with past friends, non of the above I have felt this about.

I’m just at a loss at to what’s happened with my dynamic around women since having a kid / turning 30. Are other people finding friendships hard in this age range / other people starting to only find friends in men over the years?

I know it’s impossible to know what’s really going on without knowing a person but maybe someone has some experience and insight into why women are dumping me and others just make no active attempt to be my friend despite seeing me daily / weekly and enjoying coffees at times with me (with the whole group there)?

thanks for any feedback

What is the other condition @Threebear?

I think you would like Italy or southern France @Threebear. Personally I think you sound great! But then I tend to like authentic people.

“But if I'm feeling sensitive or stressed their abrasive personalities will sometimes feel too much and I withdraw a bit.”

That’s really insightful, thank you. It seems obvious but all of this is coming from my own ego and the reality is many of the circumstances if not all are wrapped around the other person having psych/economical/work/pregnancy/life issues at the time. It’s not that I suddenly think my directness isn’t the cause. But a sensitive person in a sensitive place has often gone on the absolute attack at me including one of the above out of nowhere after months or years of knowing me. Not because I changed suddenly rather they were suffering at that precise moment and suddenly my personality as you so correctly put it became highly abrasive to their very thin skin at the time.

Abrasive I think is a brilliant term to describe how my personality / ND affects people, either before they know me (and before they see this lovely caring loyal friend) or when they are in a dark place themselves.

I don’t live too far from these places. I speak many languages, the issue is cross-cultural including in the past with french women (making friends with them that is, as never have I actually made 1 good French friend) - my Italian friends have always stuck with me though I have to say 😅

I don’t mean to sound heavily mysterious, I would just rather not say. There is a long story behind it but I feel much more comfortable just stating ND and that’s all, only 3 people in my life know what type I have but almost everyone I meet knows I’m ND eventually. Most just presume ASD and I let them unless they specifically point it out and I just correct by saying it’s not that, and there’s more than the 2 (+ 3 extras) everyone knows about. Sorry I can see how I sound very odd hiding it but it’s for good cause I promise.

It is really odd saying you have this special mysterious other ND no one else knows about. Not sure why you’d be so weird about it on here when there’s a lot of awareness and understanding of being ND and enough of it about not to be outing. Anyway, on the wider point I agree all the bluntness and v v honest qualities plus the temperament does sound like an acquired taste and it’s got too much for some old friends and doesn't draw people into inviting you to the group, though there’s nothing to stop you inviting them if you want, and maybe modifying the bluntness if you can. There’s no gain to upsetting people and much to be lost if you really want their company.

Surely you 'correcting' people about a condition you've chosen not to inform them of and are needlessly mysterious about goes some way to explaining why you struggle to keep friends?

Too complicated/intense
Too high/unrealistic expectations/getting intimate too fast

Most friendships are actually quite light/superficial/secondary to your partner and core goals.

That doesn't mean they are not enjoyable, but there's not this amount of overthinking and overanalysing.

It sounds like you want adult female friends to be permanent besties/sister figures/very "deep"/problem solving for each other.

These interactions tend to crash and burn after a while, and then you feel rejected, and the rumination starts...

Maybe try to keep your social interactions at a "3" rather than a "9".

Don't stop meeting people but take things slowly. Keep your main emotional focus on your own life and goals. Don't overfunction or do favours.

It can be quite claustrophobic being in an interaction with someone who has pegged you as "potential friend" to meet a rigid mental model (and then gets upset if you don't reciprocate).

I think I recognise something in the way you talk that you might find helpful. I recognise it because I have it and I've realised it's obnoxious and a serious hindrance in making/keeping friendships with women.

It's a form of white-knighting that places you as the superior in the relationship. It makes you feel good, saintly, even heroic, but makes the other woman feel condescended to. It's not an equal relationship, so eventually - despite all your other lovely qualities and all your efforts - the relationship dies.

The fact that you keep your male friendships reflects - and I'm generalising hugely here - the fact that compared to women, men don't have such personal, profound, and deeply emotional relationships. That's why they are easier to stay friends with. But these friendships also tend to be shallower and more impersonal. (Again, am generalising)

I'll go through the points where I saw this white-knighting and superiority:

"I take a big interest in people, love listening to their stories; I’m chatty and help out (taking other people’s kids to school or clubs, even bloody giving a job and renting an apartment cheapily to help friends - the 2 failed friendships above have to do with this)."

You're helpful. But do you let others help you? Do you feel comfortable letting other people see when you're weak, when you've fucked up, when you're down or out? Relationships are a 2-way street, they won't work otherwise. You can't ask that people are vulnerable with you if you are not vulnerable with them. It feels unbalanced and wrong to the other party.

"can I ask how you think would be a more appropriate way to communicate if you are upset with a female friend, when I say upset it might just be disagreement with something they’ve said and I would bluntly say “well that’s not quite right, X and X happened” and if they push I just smile and move on to something else as clearly I know they are on the defense for belief they are right. I can see in these places women often shut down and get all funny with me. "

"I just smile" is condescending. People can see this, especially women, who are attunded to subtle power plays by other women.

"I have many positive qualities which I don’t go on to explain as they are irrelevant (extremely loyal, great listener, high emotional intelligence in most aspects (yes I’m aware expressions of anger do not promote for this), very funny, very sporty, open and inviting, caring mother bear like, supportive, helpful, never late to meet or reply etc etc)."

"open" - are you really open? See my point above about vulnerability. "caring mother bear" - you seek people who you can help, because it makes you feel good about yourself. Aka white-knighting.

"I probably shouldn’t have placed intense in the description as it’s not actually intense in a negative sense, only in a if you need a serious deep talk I’m here to listen and discuss with much interest. I take on the “therapist” role often and I consider it an in the name yet positive quality (people come to me, it’s not that I seek that position - I’m just a very open and interested person)."

"I take on the “therapist” role" - because it puts you in a position of power.

And taking the therapist role interests you. That was also a big motivation for me, when I myself acted as therapist and hand holder. I call it anthropological interest. I was (am) interested in what makes people tick, and women could sense that. It made them feel watched and dissected.

So your inability to keep and make female friendships may reflect an unreflected desire to be safe in relationships by never being vulnerable. Or maybe you really are invulnerable - you might have everything tied up just perfectly in your life, you have no need for a shoulder to cry on. In any case, you positioning yourself as the therapist and the helper means you are miming emotional intimacy, and other women can see this. That makes them withdraw from you.

As I said at the start, I realised this about myself. Maybe I'm projecting. But it looks very familiar to me.

you exactly described all of my personality issues and friendship issues too; my story is also similar to the OP. It’s only recently at 37 that I’ve been able to reflect on the white knighting as you put it.

Before that I couldn’t understand what I was doing wrong, because I felt like I was listening; being there for friends etc. but I didn’t equally open up. This was also compounded by my (before kids) previous study as a psychotherapist/working in mental health settings.

May I ask, how did you realise all of this about yourself? Was there a recurrent loss of female friendships? Therapy? Have you since made female friends?

If you are very very honest and sometimes angry men won’t care but women will generally avoid you. Just hang out with men.

Hazarding a guess here from your words. You’re too much. You’re too strong in views and reactions and ask a lot of questions and can be too blunt. All those things are really overbearing and exhausting to be around. Group dynamics are based around lightheartedness and levity on the whole. You sound rather intense.

but that’s who you are. Don’t change but accept that male friendships may be the way to go and be happy with that. I like how confident you sound about who you are. Please don’t lose that. You may not be a groups cup of tea but doesn’t mean you should change.

I knew immediately you have adhd as you remind me a lot of my ds who has a diagnosis. I notice his friends..guys..are people who give straight from the hip and take the same way. They are very loyal to each other but if l spoke to any of of my friends the way they do l wouldn't have a friend left. They are extremely open and know each others struggle and turn to each other for support and advice which they give and readily receive. But their straight forward talk makes me squirm and l know l wouldn't cope well and would run a mile from a friendship like that. My ds has no interest in easy going , nice friendships. Also with ADHD there is a highly sensitive spot that if someone touches it they are gone..over..done!
You are really doing nothing wrong . You are just different..just yourself. I found and l don't have ADHD that l made most friends when l gave up caring. Suddenly everyone was calling me inviting me when l actually had given up, stopped trying and let go. You sound wonderful with your sport, male friendships etc but are possibly too much for a friendly woman's group so look out for strong women like yourself..maybe at the extreme sports..and don't go all in. Hold back. Watch for a while. But generally enjoy being you .

Just hang out with men.

I wish this was an option.

I hear you, OP. I’m not everyone’s cup of tea in female friendship groups either. I find I have to mask rather a lot and stick to ‘safe’ (boring) subjects to be perceived as acceptable. Kids, pregnancy, school are the top 3 faves in my own experience. It’s remarkable how many time ppl can go through their pregnancy story each and every time a group of women (that I know) get together. It’s a massive event, don’t get me wrong, and it’s all to do with bonding, I get that, but ffs, that is why I prefer hanging out with men as the topics are generally a lot broader. I’m in a LT relationship however with kids, so me seeking out male friends is generally frowned upon. Even just chatting to dads will widen the social gap further in the playground and school social events. Funnily enough their wives are happy to chat to my DP for ages.

I guess I’m lucky as I have a couple of male friends from before my relationship started who I can communicate with semi regularly to keep me sane and not a complete social leper. I wish I could have more though, or find more women on my wavelength.

You are not alone, OP.

You must know some extraordinarily limited people. Women are precisely half the human race, so look outside the clearly small, dull group you know and find the ones who discuss books and current affairs or folklore or environmental activism or football or whatever it is floats your boat. Why don't you have mixed-sex groups of friends. A couple of my main friendship groups are about 50/50.

And I'm married with a child and have male friends. DH has female friends. No one I know 'frowns on it'. If married women are able to chat to your partner without the sky falling in, surely you can do it without being labelled as some kind of playground jezebel.

ones who discuss books and current affairs or folklore or environmental activism or football or whatever it is floats your boat

I would love this!

The groups I’m referring to are ones I’m in contact with or have been, recently.

NCT - I guess this would be understandable - but our kids are 10 years old! Toddler groups, again, that’s the reason we’re there, but when we go for coffee - why is it just limited to children? Mum friends - school is the main topic. I live in a village so there is a smaller pool admittedly. But even friends form school who have kids - the conversations chiefly revolve around their kids or their pregnancies etc. I introduce other topics but they always work back to the main topics of choice. I do have a mixed for ship group which are made up of my partners friends and their waves and the wives only really began to speak to em after I had a child of my own - as they must have seen a commonality.

I have some female friends without kids and the topics are just as varied as my male friends - but groups of women (as I said in MY experience) are boring, conversationally.

edited for typo

They've told you quite a few things that might put you in a kind of marmite category. Your strong opinions, intense feelings, unable to forgive people for petty things. You may think you're internalising it but your friends have noticed.

I think you just have to accept that you have certain qualities that can rub people up the wrong way. Maybe try and moderate that and see if things improve. You can be honest. But being hurtful or blunt and unforgiving of small things makes you sound pretty hard work.

OK, well you're going to have to go out and look for them if they're not in your vicinity. I didn't like my London NCT group and most of us didn't get on, so it quickly dissipated after the babies were born, so no idea how that would have continued. I met some enormously cool women at NCT coffee mornings and at a Mothers Talking discussion group, though -- an art restorer, an opera singer, someone who was on maternity leave from finding translators for obscure languages at the Hague international criminal court. I did spend a few years living in a village with some extraordinarily limited people, but there I made friends through work.

My male and female friends where I live now are artists, writers, academics, architects, nail technicians, tax accountants, musicians, medica, SAHPs, people who work in theatre, archivists, students, therapists, but I'd say they all have very diverse interests. What they probably all have in common is that they're passionate about something, whether that's their job or something else, that their job facilitates. Some have children, some don't.

-I’ve just seen there are loads of typos in here, sorry, I was in a rush!

That’s a really thought out text and full of a lot of food for thought so thank you. The reality is despite power balances being at play, I’m actually quite an open book. Looking back I could say actually my vulnerability is what turned some people away although that’s not exclusive to me, it’s just humans I would dare to say. In those cases I was white-knighting the entire relationship and when the tables turned and I needed help they ran for the hills. Great to read about however and something to consider!

Oh such a shame I can’t find more friends like yourself out here where I am 😅. You sound amazing and good for you, men are brilliant and it’s not what others say about sexuality or being more basic, they just let go easier and couldn’t care less if you are a bit intense or angry or just plain dissapear for months. I’m in a LT hetro relationship also, I just make sure to introduce male friends to my partner and most of the time he becomes their friends too. Often I am introduced to his friends and they end up with me as their favorite also. I guess he couldn’t have ever changed me, he knew this from the beginning and I’m so tom boyish it’s not like I would ever appear some damsel in the night with these men looking to swoon me (makes me laugh just the idea of it).

Furhermore you’ve hit the nail there with the topics. I love my child to death, I’ve even grown to love my friends kids but in reality I have 0 interest in kids or pregnancy and especially absolute 0 interest in babies. It’s the main conversation topic 99% of time; kids, home, babies, cooking. I totally respect and join in but it feels almost dumbed down compared with male conversation that have got some real core to them I find (politics / economics / moral values).

OP there are definitely women who want to talk about the subjects that interest you! How can you find them?

I'm ND too, into adventure sports, and child-free so obviously have no interest in swapping stories about childbirth, kids clubs, and what have you. But I have quite a few women friends. Most of my close friends are also ND though as I think NT women can find me a bit odd which is fine.

At the moment I'm trying to decide whether to cut ties with a friend who sounds possibly a bit like yourself in some ways. Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'll describe the friendship from my perspective and maybe you can see whether anything strikes a chord.

First of all, I come across as humble and easy-going and my friend who is intense and very confident in her own opinions often leaves me feeling steamrolled. The latest example was on a discussion about films and I mentioned I liked the Barbie movie. Well you'd think of admitted to being the antichrist or something because it turns out she absolutely despises that film and she really let me have it with her opinions that left no room for an alternative view of the movie. She kept saying 'no offense but..." which isn't a "get out of jail free" for running roughshod over another person's thoughts and ideas. Do you do that kind of thing? I find it exhausting to be put on the defence over every little thing.

My friend has extremely high self esteem and thinks she's right about everything, thinks her own concerns are more valid than other people's, talks endlessly about minor issues with her health that she blows out of all proportion including berating waitstaff about her dietary requirements in restaurants. Last month she almost left one poor young woman in tears. It was awful. Do you assert yourself to that degree?

Because my friend values herself so highly my own successes tend to be minimized in our conversations. Do you centre your own accomplishments rather than celebrating those of your friends?

I'm not at all saying you do these things but just wondering whether any of this resonates. When I'm with a friend I mostly want to have a laugh, support and validate each other, chat about all sorts of things, enjoy fun activities etc. I don't want to be made to feel like I have to defend myself in debates, compete to be considered successful, deal with a know-it-all attitude or have my accommodating nature misread as being insecure or a pushover. Do you think you might make easy-going people feel steamrolled?

Oh that, without disagreement, sounds horrendous, but no I definitely do none of the above. I’m not actually heavily opinionated hence loving to debate as you can easily persuade me if you have good arguments. I would never “crap” on a friends interests, morals or anything of the such. I absolutely celebrate the smallest achievements if it’s obviously a big deal to my friends even if for me it may be small. I think I have a good amount of confidence on the outside but am quite fluffy and soft on the inside and in friendships this very much comes out. Many comments on here how I must be intense but I’m really not 😅, difficult to explain but I’m actually a really laid back friend who’ll happily maintain friendships that are lighter or heavier depending on our click. My issues arise with “abrasive attitude” more when I’m discussing my things maybe, or opinions on something that happened in my business or my general resting “b* face that I’ve been told I have. I seem to intimidate people until the properly talk with me and then they say “oh wow you kind of terrified me but haha you’re all fun and games”. Obviously still having issues long term and likely it’s coming from where I’ve felt displaced or let down and the manner in which I express that in a too assertive way possibly. This forum has been really helpful anyway to recognize and cross off things that could be at play. Thanks!

Again, it’s seems strange that you only encounter women who only talk about parenthood and men who never do. I’ve never found this. What about your childfree friends? I’m not sure the topics of conversation differ that much in my male vs female friendships, or my parent vs childfree friends. I just had three friends over for lunch, who for various reasons weren’t working today. One has a child, as do I, and two don’t. I’m not sure I mentioned DS, other than in passing. We talked about local derelict housing protests, generational attitudes to adultery, a book about hag archetypes, and America’s Next Top Model, and I’m sure lots of nonsense I’ve forgotten. One man, three women.