Dealing with my mother

[SarahAndQuack]

My mum has always been difficult. My memories of my childhood are pretty awful. She's now in her early 70s; covid seems to have hit her very hard and left her very depressed. She does have positive qualities, and I can see that she is miserable and lonely. But I know that, invariably, she will make any significant life event extra stressful, either by having tantrums or making unpleasant comments if it's something positive, or kicking off about how I've ruined my life/how much worse things are for her if it's negative. That is just how she is. She would be mortified to hear it, but it's the case.

I have two brothers both of whom have wives and children; we're all in our late 30s/early 40s. For a while we tried doing family Christmas with mum hosting, which she desperately wanted to do, although in practice it meant me cooking in a filthy kitchen while she had a tantrum/panic and got very stressed. Over the years, one or other of us would say we were doing Christmas with our partners, and she would organise an 'alternative Christmas' where the same thing would happen. She is absolutely fanatical about this. She is also furiously jealous of her children's in-laws and will rant for ages about how unfair any arrangement is. For a while my younger brother and his wife did alternate Christmases with each set of in-laws, as they live nearby. My mum constantly complained about being invited to a Christmas that was not perfectly to her taste, whinged loudly about every detail, and generally made herself objectionable.

Gradually, both of my brothers have reduced levels of contact, which I find understandable.

My dad reinforces all of this. I don't get the sense he is miserable and lonely - he's still working which keeps him busy - but he actively encourages mum to see everyone as against her. An example would be: mum's a keen gardener with a lovely garden, but had some health issues and needed help. I found her a gardener happy to do a trial run. Instantly mum picked holes in every trivial thing this woman did - she'd trimmed grass an inch too far; she'd used shears for this when mum would use scissors. I couldn't get her to see that these things were trivial, or to accept that it would be ok just to say 'actually, this isn't working but thanks'. A few weeks in the gardener got in touch and said tactfully that she didn't feel it was working out. Weeks later, mum is still bitching about her, going on about how little she seemed to know and how poor her work was, while my dad smugly reinforces it by telling us all how talented mum is. My dad informed us that we should think of it as if mum was a master painter making great art, and she shouldn't have to put up with being assisted by someone who spoilt a masterpiece.

Everything in her life is like this: she is sure she is right and she has levels of knowledge/talent far beyond anyone around her, and my dad will always agree with her. So, for example, she volunteers at the local school to listen to children reading, and she becomes furious and frustrated that the qualified teachers and the headteacher do not take her perspective more seriously. She has some background in education (she did volunteer work for years), and when she was younger my brother and I tried hard to encourage her with that because she wanted to make a career out of it. But she wants to go in at a very high level and be treated as an expert, and it just wasn't going to happen without her putting in the work and the time to get qualifications or develop a career.

I don't want to have a massive showdown or 'go no contact'. But I've also hit the point where I just can't take it any more. For years I've done grey rock religiously and I've got very good at nodding and changing the subject. But increasingly, I feel very uncomfortable at the level of vitriol at other people she expects me to absorb. This Christmas she was ill and I saw both of my brothers (separately) with their families, and it was just lovely for me and for my DD. I really don't think I am being unreasonable here (I mean, say if I am). But I would like to know how other people in similar situations have managed it.

Distance yourself even further.

Both your parents are the issue.

Why do you not want to go no contact?. You owe her nothing let alone a relationship here. Indeed distance yourself even further. Grey rock only works up to a point and it can be emotionally exhausting to keep up.

Its not your fault your parents are like this and you did not make them that way.
Your parents had a choice when it came to you and they chose to abuse you. Your mother cannot do relationships at all and needs a man like your dad to help her. Your dad is her willing enabler and cannot be relied upon either. He has and will throw you under the bus out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.
Do read and or post on the current Well we took you to Stately Homes thread on these relationships pages.

Ooft, well I’d be going NC. Why don’t you want to do that, they both sound awful. Go LC at least, and see how much better your life is op.

'But increasingly, I feel very uncomfortable at the level of vitriol at other people she expects me to absorb'

I can relate to so much of your post, but this stuck out. My mother has expected me to contain so much of her emotions for her, and it's utterly draining and soul destroying. I fully understand how you feel and you don't sound unreasonable in the slightest

Your parents seem to have a dynamic that possibly works for them, to a degree (a very unhealthy degree). Hopefully you know this already, but they will never change. You, however, are not obliged to get dragged in to that dynamic, playing your role as part of your mother's hype squad. People like your parents (and mine) don't seem to see their children as separate beings in their own right. They cant see past the role that they want / need you to play in the drama of their life. You're just a supporting part, they're the main character. Again, hard relate to how utterly soul destroying and corrosive this is

Your brothers have distanced themselves. Time for you to think about how you could do something similar. For what it's worth, I'm still in contact with my parents, but it's low contact and I don't share very much at all with them. No contact is not the only way forward, but you need to find a way to manage the relationship that allows you to keep your own peace and sanity

It's a really tricky one. I don't want to go no contact because I think it would be harder to do than the alternative. I have had a couple of periods of no contact with them, and - partly because both of my brothers were very resistant to it - it felt like being separated from the whole family. I know it can be a good solution in a situation where that isn't the risk.

Thanks.

YY, I am increasingly low contact, as are my brothers. I suppose what I'm trying to work out is, how do we manage to preserve a good family bond - which I think we all want - while not getting sucked back into our parents' drama? I am conscious of it because this year, because of illness and coincidence, I got to see both of my brothers and their families (separately) before Christmas, and we all enjoyed seeing our children playing together. However, I know that both of my brothers would be resistant to the idea of organising a family event that excluded my parents, so we end up seeing less of each other as well, and it's a pity.

You describe the dynamic so well with the gardener, that even though the content/detail is unfamiliar, I recognise the outline perfectly from my own parents and half sister. I can't exactly name it all but the resonance is real. (I should add that I think in my family autism factors in, as the older generations without diagnoses had elaborate and destructive defences for their self-worth.)

I think you are saying your relationships with your brothers depend on you staying locked into this dysfunction. I think you ought to question those relationships too -- are they strong enough to bear you being open with these people that you love? Sticking close regardless may not be a solution, but there are many variables.

It's tricky. When both my parents were alive I might not have managed the relative freedom I now have, harsh as that sounds. My sibling relationships are very distant for good reasons, but my loving extended family are only now getting closer again after a big campaign from my surviving parent and half sibling to turn them against me when I had my own kids and didn't give up full control.

Try to find a way to be that truly works for you and put strong boundaries around it.

Counselling. I nearly walked away from my very close family a few years back. I have always had issues with my mum who has been the bane of my life and controlled me for many many years, the list of her awfulness is too long to go into here. She got worse after my dad died and was awful, even more demanding than usual it was all me, me, me and telling me how awful I was.

When I hit 50 I took a long hard look in the mirror and decided I needed to do something. I thought the only option was to walk away from her and to go no contact, but that also would have included my 2 sisters and extended family who I am very close too. So instead my DH suggested counselling which he had had for an issue and it had helped him.

I saw the counsellor on and off for quite a while, so it wasn’t a quick fix, but my goodness it WAS a fix. Suddenly I understood that the problem didn’t lie with me, but with her. I was able to not feel guilty about not phoning her every day, it didn’t matter if she didn’t like the colour I was painting my living room, or a dress I was wearing or a thousand other things.

It worked for me - after a lifetime of emotional abuse I was finally mentally free.

NC with malignant narc mother and enabling father for 8 years. Never been happier in my life.

My thoughts:

Your parents will only get worse. it doesn't help that they feed off each other.

I would mention to your brothers, if you haven't, that sometimes it's nice to have it just be the siblings, something to encourage those get togethers to happen without the guilt that they associate with not including the parents. Maybe if they see how much it means to you, that will help.

Also, I think it's more than fair for just siblings to get together rather than a whole family event even when the kids do enjoy the parents. It's a different generation and dynamic.

If you host, I wouldn't invite your parents. If they host, that's on them. Limit your visit at engage with the other family members as much as possible. Let your brothers handle the brunt of your parents as they are choosing this.

At some point, your brothers will have had enough or you may reach a point where it's not worth seeing your brothers as much.

For the sake of my peace, I no longer see some family members as they were a package deal with my parents, but ultimately, it was sadly worth it for my mental health and happiness.

Also, if your brothers value their relationship with you, they will make a point of seeing you even if you are not in contact with your parents. Remember that...

Thank you, that is very helpful! I don't know about autism - it does run in the family; my maternal cousins both have children with diagnoses. The irony with the gardening is that my brother has worked as a professional gardener for most of his adult life; he absolutely knows what's what, and he told my mum quite plainly that he wouldn't work with someone who nit-picked the way she was doing. The gardener she had was pretty highly qualified, too.

I am trying to think about the relationship with my brothers. Something I am sad about is the realisation that I've drifted away from them. Seeing both of them this year made me realise how much I do enjoy spending time with them. Of course they can both annoy me enormously. And I do think that they rely on me maintaining a certain relationship with our parents. But they have both begun to be more forthcoming about the situation, too - a few years ago neither of them would have said anything, but recently they've both mentioned how tricky they find our parents. So I think, to an extent, what I'm responding to is feeling that they are slowly making changes, both in terms of being willing to talk to me about it all, and in terms of reducing their own levels of contact.

@VioletandMauve I'm so sorry it was like that for you. Yes, I've got a good counsellor.

I think going low contact is best - drop the rope and don't get involved in sorting things like gardeners out for them. Do you ever speak up about her negative rants about other people or have you given up? My mum can be like this, it's often sadly a feature of getting older and general unhappiness at their own life. I do try and say 'Mum, can we talk about something more cheerful, it's not nice to listen to you going on about how awful x is' and try and change the subject!

If you can, try and arrange the odd meet up with each brother, going out for lunch or take the kids to an activity. You deserve to have a good relationship with them despite the difficulties with your mum.

When you do see your parents, try and keep visits fairly short and maybe involve an activity like visiting a National Trust place or having lunch out so you're not just sitting in their house listening to them moan.

@MyLittleNest, thanks, that's helpful.

As it happens, my older brother is the one who suggested I come down to theirs just before Christmas. It was lovely, and I really appreciated it.

I think what I am trying to navigate is that if I hosted my brothers without our parents - or if either of them hosted in that situation - my mother would kick off massively, and she would also try very hard to organise an alternative 'real' Christmas. Unless all three of us were to decide we could deal with this and patiently explain this is just what we're doing, it would be just as much of a pain as going no contact in the first place. I'm not saying it's not something we may get to; I don't know.

At the moment, I think the way my brothers deal with it - and, to be fair, the way I've dealt with it - is to accept that mum will want 'her' Christmas and someone will turn up for that, and she will complain endlessly about the other child/children and how unfair it is they go to their in-laws.

I'm not sure how to even raise this with my brothers.

Oh, sorting out a gardener was a mistake! I only did it because she had had health issues and, stupidly, it seemed like an easy thing.

I do do grey rock and repeated 'please don't tell me this again; you've told me already'/ 'please let's not get into negatives again'.

Taking my mum out is not a good idea. She's embarrassing in public, frankly.

I do take your point it's a reflection of her unhappiness. But I do think an awful lot of it is unhappiness of her own making. My little brother and I have both tried, at various points, to be supportive and to try to help her find things that would make her feel more fulfilled, or to talk to her about what is making her unhappy. But I think we have both realised it's pointless.

'Taking my mum out is not a good idea. She's embarrassing in public, frankly.'

Great example of setting a boundary. You're already starting to think 'I can cope with X, but cannot cope with Y', and acting accordingly. Over time, maybe with the help of counselling, those boundaries might progress even further

Re the 'happiness' issue, I do think that some people don't know how to be content, or maybe don't feel that they deserve to be content. My MIL and my mother are both like this - nothing is ever good enough, nothing makes them content. Trying to get there just destroys your own sense of self in the process. It's really sad, but I realized a long time ago that I could plough my energy into trying to make my mother happy, and fail miserably, or I could plough energy into my self and see results. I could not do both

Also, it sounds like your brothers might be at the very beginning of realizing that your parents' behaviour is a bit much. This is a long, frightening, disorientating journey (as you know). I would keep talking to them about it, little and often.

How would it feel for you to offer to host your brothers and their families at your house, for lunch or dinner or whatever, and ..... just not mention it to your parents? No fall out, no recriminations, no big secret - just don't mention it

I think I 'started to think' about this sort of boundary in my early twenties, so after two decades you'd hope I'd begun to get used to it. And as you say, counselling has been useful.

I don't think I am trying to 'progress' with my own boundaries, so much as to navigate a new situation where I want to take my brothers and their families into account too. Does that make sense?

I'm ok enforcing my own boundaries - not that I always get it right (who does?), but I'm used to it. What I've realised more recently is that I would love to find a way to have more of my siblings and their families in my life, and that means trying to find a way both to sound out how they feel about all of this (which they seem, now, to be open do discussing), and trying to work out how all of us can pull together.

I agree with you that some people don't have the gift of happiness, and it is a shame it's that way for your mum and MIL.

I cross posted with you, sorry!

I think my older brother has been quietly aware of issues for a while, for various reasons.

I think my younger brother has had a more recent and sharp realisation; he's recently had a baby and that has obviously made him start thinking differently about things.

But yes, the net result is that both of them seem to be more amenable to talking about what is going on, whereas a decade ago we were very much in the 'goodness Sarah, can't think what you mean, la la la' kind of stage.

I did suggest to my younger brother that we do what you say - I was going down to see him rather than hosting, but I suggested we just quietly do it - and he really wasn't happy with the idea, and wanted to run it past my mum. My view here is that if that's how he feels, it's up to him, but I wasn't going to get involved in that conversation.

I always think ASD has a major part to play in adults who have a fragile sense of self worth, and their need to denigrate others in order to build their own self esteem. I believe that personality disorders are just maladaptive behaviours in response to unmet needs.

Absolute BS. You're describing bullying behaviour.

ASD has nothing to do with adults who have a fragile sense of self worth or a need to denigrate others to improve their self esteem!. It is a triad of social impairments. It also shows a poor understanding of what ASD actually is and means. It is also true that people on the ASD spectrum are more likely than the general population to be in an abusive relationship with they being the target of abuse.

ASD is NOT a personality disorder nor a mental health condition.

I am frankly tired of seeing such behaviour being wrongly self ascribed to ASD repeatedly when these people have not been diagnosed as being on the ASD spectrum. They are not dinsangosed because they are not on the spectrum at
all.

OP - Your parents are abusive and have not changed since your own childhood. There is nothing from you to suggest here that either parent is on an autistic spectrum; it is far more likely that your mother is a narcissist (and this is a personality disorder) with your dad being her willing enabler. Women like your mother cannot do relationships so always but always need a willing enabler to help them.

OP

re your comment:

I suppose what I'm trying to work out is, how do we manage to preserve a good family bond - which I think we all want - while not getting sucked back into our parents' drama?

Short answer is that you cannot. You can only try and preserve a good family bond between you people as siblings. Your parents, mother in particular with father enabling, will always try and hoover you back into their dysfunctional fold.

My MIL behaves exactly this way. She is 100% ND, and has all the signs of a cluster B personality disorder to add into the mix. How do I know? Because DH and DS1 are also autistic, and they’ve inherited it from her. Of course I’m not saying that poor behaviour is always because of ND.

The reason these people aren’t diagnosed is because these behaviours were not attributed to autism in the past.

(ASD is not an excuse, btw, but framing it this way helps me to understand frankly incomprehensible behaviours).

Can you have short meet ups with brothers -call in for a coffee, meet up at the park, pub lunch so they don’t become family get togethers. I can’t quite see why the DPs need to always be involved.

NPD is a cluster B personality disorder and its more likely this that affects your mother daily rather than anything else for which she is not diagnosed. My MIL behaves similarly and she is not on any ASD spectrum at all; for me to at all attribute this to her would be a disservice. You cannot assume your mother is on the spectrum simply because your DH and son are diagnosed; your assumption may be wide of the mark here. I would think they do not behave as badly as your mother does; both of them can and likely do show empathy towards others. Your mother has no empathy whatsoever.

ASD is not solely inherited from the mother; there are complex paternal genetic contributions from the father also. Studies show siblings with ASD often share more of their father's genome than their mother's, suggesting a greater paternal genetic link in many cases. Siblings with autism share about 66 percent of their genetic material from their father and only about 30 percent from their mother. However, this was a surprising finding with many potential explanations including the complex interaction of parental DNA.

Mothers also contribute genes, and certain maternal health or environmental factors during pregnancy (like obesity, diabetes, pollution) can increase risk, but this isn't solely genetic. No single parent is solely responsible; genes from both can be passed down.

ASD can occur randomly too within families. I n some cases, individuals with autism have what are called de novo (new) mutations. These are genetic mutations that occur spontaneously in the affected individual and are not inherited from their parents. De novo mutations are thought to play a role in a significant subset of autism cases.

I completely understand the dynamic you're describing, it's hugely challenging. I think continuing with counselling sounds great (I'm accepting I might need to do this too).

Have you found your way to the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers yet? Very best of luck to you, I want to be able to do the right thing by my parents as they become elderly, but also the right thing for myself too.