Dealing with my mother

[SarahAndQuack]

My mum has always been difficult. My memories of my childhood are pretty awful. She's now in her early 70s; covid seems to have hit her very hard and left her very depressed. She does have positive qualities, and I can see that she is miserable and lonely. But I know that, invariably, she will make any significant life event extra stressful, either by having tantrums or making unpleasant comments if it's something positive, or kicking off about how I've ruined my life/how much worse things are for her if it's negative. That is just how she is. She would be mortified to hear it, but it's the case.

I have two brothers both of whom have wives and children; we're all in our late 30s/early 40s. For a while we tried doing family Christmas with mum hosting, which she desperately wanted to do, although in practice it meant me cooking in a filthy kitchen while she had a tantrum/panic and got very stressed. Over the years, one or other of us would say we were doing Christmas with our partners, and she would organise an 'alternative Christmas' where the same thing would happen. She is absolutely fanatical about this. She is also furiously jealous of her children's in-laws and will rant for ages about how unfair any arrangement is. For a while my younger brother and his wife did alternate Christmases with each set of in-laws, as they live nearby. My mum constantly complained about being invited to a Christmas that was not perfectly to her taste, whinged loudly about every detail, and generally made herself objectionable.

Gradually, both of my brothers have reduced levels of contact, which I find understandable.

My dad reinforces all of this. I don't get the sense he is miserable and lonely - he's still working which keeps him busy - but he actively encourages mum to see everyone as against her. An example would be: mum's a keen gardener with a lovely garden, but had some health issues and needed help. I found her a gardener happy to do a trial run. Instantly mum picked holes in every trivial thing this woman did - she'd trimmed grass an inch too far; she'd used shears for this when mum would use scissors. I couldn't get her to see that these things were trivial, or to accept that it would be ok just to say 'actually, this isn't working but thanks'. A few weeks in the gardener got in touch and said tactfully that she didn't feel it was working out. Weeks later, mum is still bitching about her, going on about how little she seemed to know and how poor her work was, while my dad smugly reinforces it by telling us all how talented mum is. My dad informed us that we should think of it as if mum was a master painter making great art, and she shouldn't have to put up with being assisted by someone who spoilt a masterpiece.

Everything in her life is like this: she is sure she is right and she has levels of knowledge/talent far beyond anyone around her, and my dad will always agree with her. So, for example, she volunteers at the local school to listen to children reading, and she becomes furious and frustrated that the qualified teachers and the headteacher do not take her perspective more seriously. She has some background in education (she did volunteer work for years), and when she was younger my brother and I tried hard to encourage her with that because she wanted to make a career out of it. But she wants to go in at a very high level and be treated as an expert, and it just wasn't going to happen without her putting in the work and the time to get qualifications or develop a career.

I don't want to have a massive showdown or 'go no contact'. But I've also hit the point where I just can't take it any more. For years I've done grey rock religiously and I've got very good at nodding and changing the subject. But increasingly, I feel very uncomfortable at the level of vitriol at other people she expects me to absorb. This Christmas she was ill and I saw both of my brothers (separately) with their families, and it was just lovely for me and for my DD. I really don't think I am being unreasonable here (I mean, say if I am). But I would like to know how other people in similar situations have managed it.

I think a reality check, as well as solutions (though you are right it's cathartic to know other people are in the same boat).

I'm not shrugging off any solutions, I don't think. I've explained why I don't think going no-contact is a good option right now. But I do think this 'oh you must do it my way or I will belittle you' tone you're taking is ... well, to be honest, it's very much like the way my mother communicates. 'It's all your fault, none of this will change' ... well, ok then, how helpful.

I am pretty low-contact. Where I came into this was noticing my brothers seem to be quietly moving towards lower contact, and I think possibly there's a bit more willingness from both of them to start thinking how we could more easily maintain our relationships, which I think/hope is good.

I'm sorry your mum was like that.

Don’t tell her then she’ll never know. Build a relationship with your brothers and go very low contact with your mum. Ring her once a month and avoid her for the whole of December. If she keeps asking about Christmas, just say you’ve decided to not celebrate Christmas anymore.

I was with you to the last bit! She'd never believe me.

I think my younger brother, in particular, is very wary of not telling her things and I do respect that that is his business. My older brother mentioned, quite briefly and circumspectly, that they often keep plans vague. Maybe I need to encourage the two of them to have a chat. (For context, my older brother has teenagers and has broken quite a lot of ground in terms of maintaining boundaries for his children, whereas my younger brother has a toddler - I do think having children is one of the flash points in any relationship where you suddenly re-assess things that you'd been putting up with before, so I do see why my little brother is probably still reeling a bit.)

It is hard they dont change. I agree good boundaries. My mams neighbours avoid her says it all really. 80s and prob years of this crap. Sigh. Its tiring

It might be the cynic in me, but maybe your brothers are quietly moving towards lower contact because they think that looking after frail and infirm elderly relatives is women's work, and they have you marked down for that role when the time inevitably comes.

Your mum is a textbook narc and your dad is her enabler.

I think (and this is not a good thing) that they would be perfectly capable of making that assumption without bothering with low contact, actually - a lot of men seem to think like this, and unfortunately I don't think they are the exception.

Let her have it or leave her to it 🤷‍♀️

Is there not an opportunity to still do things together but just cut down the time? You can all see each other independently (for a longer time) before but also let her have her "real" Christmas. Maybe explain that as she's getting on a bit she might like to change what that looks like. So you all get together but only for a couple of hours? If you travel far, maybe just stay nearby. I don't know what the plans normally look like and whether that couple of hours is too much? With my late father, I realised that 2 nights was usually the max for us before we lost the plot with each other (I mean in fairness I would've preferred just an day/afternoon perhaps more regularly but living in different countries meant that it didn't really make sense for much less as doing it for less time regularly was trickier). After I had a family of my own, I could visit for 3 nights but that's only because I was able to spend time with them as well and there were breaks from each other. I also found that doing activities meant there was less chance to talk (but similarly would avoid taking him to places that required him to interact with people).

Perhaps during the Christmas meets you could try passing the monologue to someone else so your brothers are more appreciative of what meeting up together actually means. Also, if she's making you cater it from her house, either take a step back and just let her get angry without offering as much help or tell her that it needs to be different next time. Either takeaway or everyone brings a dish.

Oh well, they've got another think coming then, haven't they? And so do your parents, who undoubtedly think the same.

Time to start putting some boundaries in place, at least in your own mind, so you don't get sucked into anything unawares.

We've started moving towards cutting down the time - we used all to come for longer and tend not to.

My older brother tried your strategy of a different kind of 'real Christmas' a couple of years ago; all of us bringing dishes, etc. I only found out quite recently, but my mum was so rude to his wife that she said that was it, she wasn't doing that again. Which, TBH, I think is fair.

I think this is the thing ... my brothers are really starting to give up on it all as well. We were all saying that something we find really difficult is that you'll say 'ok, we'll come for the day' and they'll instantly say 'ah, so you're coming down the night before, and will you stay for lunch the day after?' 'so have you decided if you'll come down for two days yet?' 'so will it be two days this time?' on repeat, and all of us admit that it is wearing.

It's quite reassuring, in a funny way, to know that we have tried some of the things that strike people as obvious solutions! So it's not really us.

Well, quite, and this is one I've been thinking about for a long time. I did a lot of looking after my granny when she was dying and it made me fairly open-eyed about that.

It sort of sounds like you've done the best you can then if you don't want to go no contact. Perhaps you could suggest some kind of counselling? Not necessarily for her depression etc but just some kind of relationship counselling. Whereby you get to tell her the things you find hard and the conversations you miss from your past... but all this is mediated so no big blow up. I'd kind of hoped that in his last days I might get to have these conversations with my dad and we'd both be able to talk about times gone by and maybe say things we hadn't been able to say because the opportunity hadn't presented itself. No such luck. He wasn't interested.
Anyway. I guess what I'm saying is things may always be like this. Even if you manage to have that conversation, it might not change anything, but at least you can say you tried. Other than that, keep up with redirecting the comments and possibly one day you'll do it in a way that clicks? You say they don't take coming for the day as an answer... have you all done that yet? Just gone for the afternoon? Do they still ask again the next year. Or is it a case of you all give in and end up staying the duration.

I haven’t actually said what my way would be?

What I said is you have two options - do something different or do nothing different and let everything stay the same for as long as it stays the same. These are just the options we all have in life, for everything.

I’m a therapist and we always start with the ‘where are you at now’ talk in terms of is the individual in the ‘do something’ or ‘do nothing’ camp. We look at 5 Stages of Change Model to see where the individual is positioned in the model and do a cost-benefit analysis. You can Google these things easily.

You may not be ready to look at things in this way but just so you know this is not a dig or imposing personal views. These are verified therapeutic and self-help concepts.

What I said is you have two options - do something different or do nothing different and let everything stay the same for as long as it stays the same. These are just the options we all have in life, for everything.

No, actually, you didn't. You said 'Are you actually looking for solutions or just wanting a moan?,' which I thought was pretty rude. Then you concluded 'It’s just none of this will change anything.'

I don't see why you think taking other people's - on the whole, pretty helpful - advice, thinking about it and working out how to act on it won't change anything. Well before you posted, other people had made helpful comments about how I might navigate my relationship with my brothers. Several people have said that that the idea of spending time with them without my parents seems viable, and I found the reassurance that this may not be a time when honesty is the best policy to be really useful.

I'm not sure how or why you think none of 'this' sort of change could change anything? But because you've dismissed this sort of change out of hand, it seems pretty clear you have some very fixed idea of what counts as 'change,' and only your idea (whatever it may be) will do.

I have no idea why you think that, or why you are being so rude.

You have had a lot of helpful advice here. I have a similar dynamic with my dad and over the years I have come to realise that he suffers with anxiety and it manifests in a need to control. He has so many ‘rules’ and complains about the cleaner, not trusting her to clean the shower so he does that himself.
Its helped me to realise that his behaviour is anxiety based.
It’s taken having a DC with similar behaviours for me to truly understand what’s been happening all my life. Dads behaviour borders on narcissistic and my poor mum used to put up with everything to keep the peace and stop him spiralling.

I’ve found it helpful to understand where the behaviour comes from, lack of control activates fight/flight and a need to somehow regain control. I’ve found speaking to him as I would a child with anxiety can help, before I inflamed situations by being oppositional.

Im sure in my family it’s a neurodivergent trait and possibly PDA profile. But due to the nature of PDA it’s difficult to get diagnosed as the mention of it triggers fight/flight and a stress response.

Hopscotch

You can try and rationalise it like that but equally you may be wide of the mark here re your dad. He instead may well have some form of untreated and untreatable personality disorder/s. NPD is a form of personality disorder.

What if anything do you know about your dad's childhood; that often gives clues.

He does this also because he can.

Abuse lies at the heart of power and control and your dad seemingly wants absolute here. Your mother has gone along with it from him out of self preservation and want of a quiet life; she has failed you as a parent also by enabling him and failing to protect you from the excesses of his behaviour. The way you deal with him sounds absolutely exhausting for you and it reads like you're walking on eggshells around him all the time not wanting to set him off. He remains volatile all the same.

Why do you still see him at all?. This is who he is for whatever reasons and he is not going to change. Why do you have a need to understand where it comes from?. Such people are really and truly not worth bothering about and it's likely also you would not tolerate a friend doing this. Its not your fault he is the ways he is and you did not make him that way either

Sarah

You can indeed try and put in boundaries but you may well find both parents here rail against them. I would try and foster further relations with your brothers and present a united front re your parents. You may well find from further discussions with them that your parents have used you all as siblings to either triangulate or manipulate. It is indeed more than ok for you all to get together without your parents there.

Do you think your brothers need their approval even now, approval their parents will never give them?

And do not become your parents carer by dint of fact you are female!.

Oh OP every word of your first paragraph could have been written about my late mum. 6 years ago I was on a waiting list for some counselling after a lifetime of t but she got suddenly ill and died within months. We had been in a better place for the previous few years as I mellowed and bit my tongue and really seemed to like me as a person. I was so angry about the timing of her illness as I could no longer be angry or resentful as it was incredibly sad for her as she didn’t want to go. It was tough to get past the bitterness for the first few years, especially when I couldn’t recognise my mum in the woman described by other family members. I hope it’s helpful for you to know that I’ve ended up in a place where all the resentments have fallen away and I now remember the nice things and only feel sad about how small she made her world. I could have gone no contact a million times but now I am so pleased I didn’t. I can actually laugh fondly about her funny ways now and see her for the damaged woman that she was. I’m not saying “make the most of your mum while you still have her”, I think I’m saying ride it out and one day you might feel peace and acceptance of what you got given

I'm interested too.

I am diagnosed autistic. My DD and one of my DTs are too. My dad is now self identifying as autistic (to close family members). He is routine driven, a very independent thinker, has massive boundaries- for the last 20 years we have been given arrival and leaving times for visits to him. He is also unfailingly kind and generous to us. Rigid in various views, openly highly critical of my DD starting medication under a CAMHS psychiatrist at age 14 (15 now).

But he does not display any of these behaviours. My mum can be much more critical, offer negative views etc. Nothing like to the level of your mum OP, but she is definitely not autistic. She is not still married to my dad for the last 25 years either.

This behaviour may be a part of autism for some people but absolutely not all.

And yes, you can absolutely work towards family occasions without your DP. Either more covertly or under the guise of teenagers being at different stages and short visits only are possible.

And while neither of my parents are abusive or narcissistic, I find managing visits from my dad difficult in terms of things needing to go a certain way, zero small talk which suits me but I can find some of the intensity of conversation with him overwhelming and there is NO WAY I could spend days with him!

I think your younger brother will find his view changes a lot as his toddler grows and he realises what he needs to protect them from

Didn't want to read and run. It's incredibly painful when our relationships with parents are not what we want or need, especially if they aren't remotely healthy. Hardest of all at Christmas! I just wanted to reach out and give you a very unMumsnetty hug.

Personally, I have found that going lowish contact with one member of the family can end up going lowish contact with other members, for exactly the reasons you describe. It's hard to meet up without "excluding" the person who has really problematic behaviours - and in any case, families are systems and you can end up feeling sucked back in/triggered even if you meet up separately. I have found this very lonely. So, whatever you do about your parents, one positive thing to do could be to build up your friendships. Having loving and close "chosen family" can be a huge comfort.

To go back to the issue of their inevitable ageing and decline, I’d think about some strategies to prevent the typical gender based expectations falling on your shoulders. Maybe start a conversation with your brothers along the lines of one day your mother will have to accept care ( because you aren’t going to be doing it). That will signal to them at least that you don’t intend to do it all.