I’ve cancelled a Christmas invitation to my DM for her and my DB to be included in a family meal out at a Toby Carvery

[LizzieW1969]

To clarify, we are seeing my DM on the 29th so I’m not refusing to see her at all. Although not my DB, as my DSis and her family will be there too, and she won’t have anything to do with him. (My DD2 (13) is living with them - talked about elsewhere so not for this thread, it’s a very emotional subject.)

The issue is that my DB sexually abused my DSis and me when we were growing up (mainly her). He was groomed to do this by others to do so, including our F, and was abused himself and he’s very vulnerable. This is why I do have occasional contact with him. But I kept him away from my DDs for 10 years.

I was persuaded by my DM to allow contact recently between him and DD1 (16) when we celebrated her birthday at the cinema (we watched the Downton Abbey finale). She and my DB barely saw each other, though. The problem is that I’ve set a precedent now, I think.

I’m finding that my DM is pushing me constantly about contact between my DB and my family, as she’s concerned about what will happen to him when she’s no longer around. (She’s 86 years old so I do understand that.)

I always end up feeling very conflicted about the whole subject of my DB, after talking to my DM about him. I know that he’s very damaged and needing support but I still feel like I need to keep him at arm’s length because of the past.

My DM herself is damaged as well, actually. She was orphaned at 10 and then brought up by an uncle and aunt, her uncle sexually abused her. So her boundaries are not what they should be either, I think.

I do believe her that she didn’t know; her reaction of hate against my F was very genuine. I feel that she should have been more aware of what was going on, though she keeps wondering why neither DSis nor I told her.

I would say that she herself needs therapy but at 86 this is very unlikely to happen.

Keep him away. You might think your children are grown up enough to be able to protect themselves from him but what about their future children?
Don’t normalise his presence around your family.

I don’t excuse what he did at all. I suppose it’s confusing because I witnessed him being abused as well.

I come from a family like this, as well. The convention seems to be that people cut each other off, amid maximum drama, then bombard each other with emotionally abusive communications for a while, then soften and “try again”, then the whole toxic cycle begins again. For my mother and older siblings - and elsewhere in the wider family - this has been normality for decades. I was the emotional support animal in my family for years and years, until I had my own children. I was the peacemaker, the sensible one and the emotional toilet for everyone else. I was the last person to go NC - well into adulthood - but when I finally cracked, it was for good. I meant it, and I’m never going back. I can’t tell you how liberating it is. I have zero regrets and zero guilt.

Your DM is still guilty of emotional neglect OP. She's manipulating you which might be out of desperation but even so. Your DB may well need support but you and you DDs are not the people to do it.
Do not be your mother, protect your children!

That’s fair enough. However, if you can’t give her the full story then you shouldn’t be taking her anywhere your brother is. If she knew what he’d done it would be up to her to give her consent on him being there. As she doesn’t know she can’t consent, so it’s up to you to keep her safe.

This. You are also damaged. But you managed to pick yourself up and build a life (well done to you and your sister on that). Just be very clear with your DM - "He's your son, and you love him. I understand that. But he did terrible things to me and my sister, and I have to keep my own children safe." Never feel bad about this. But be proud of how far you've come - surviving CSA takes courage and resilience.

The obvious answer is you protect your DD and keep her away from your brother. Have no idea why you let him in her company once nevermind why you are contemplating more meet ups.

He may be damaged and need support but that support doesn't have to come from you.

Can you imagine a world in which any therapist would suggest that the victims of abuse should shoulder the burden of appeasing their abuser?

He needs therapy and a family of his own.

He lost the right to make demands from you and Dsis, even if he was coerced/groomed and abused himself.

I'd tell Mum to stop and never ask again and if she can't I'd lean towards going NC.

I'm not one to cry NC but these are extreme circumstances.

When you say your brother is vulnerable does he have learning difficulties such that he didn't realise what he did was wrong, if he stumbled upon it and just did what others did? Or are you just saying he has problems due to both being abused and abusing? Or totally separate physical or mental problems? Is he sorry for what he did?

Op this is all the more reason to put yourself and your children first. You do what suits you most, you fill your own cup first. You do what helps sustain your mental wellbeing and resilience. Everyone and everything else is secondary to that and you should not feel in the least bit guilty about doing so.

Your dm is actually prioritising her own needs in this scenario - HER need to know that someone will manage your brother when she passes. HER need to create the illusion of having created a supportive family unit. And I'm sure she has her own reasons for all that but being elderly or infirm doesn't absolve her of accountability over what she's created through omission either. And the only way you create a safe boundary for yourself and your children is by centering yourself in all of this.

Have you sought support from a good quality specialised counsellor op? As a Christian I'd just say tread carefully with support from the church because often (with good intent) the church can push for forgiveness and service and in this particular situation its more nuanced and that would not be appropriate. So maybe having a very neutral space to explore what you want and need might help you redefine and hold those boundaries?

And also op just to say - "monsters" are rarely born - they are usually made by a series of adverse life experiences and abuses. So of course there will be elements of your brother and mother that you identify with and understand, and then there are elements that are dangerous and could cause you harm. I can fully see why this would be very confusing for you especially because growing up in this dynamic means you will have spent years feeling this is the "norm" . But irregardless of the WHY behind what happened happened, the WHAT is still the same, and the what is the bit that we draw our boundaries around. You can understand that the situation is complex, you can recognise that your dB and mother are victims as well as abusers, you can acknowledge that there are reasons why they've made certain choices or decisions or taken certain actions - but still recognise that this dynamic is toxic to you and your family and you need to be the one to break that cycle through hard boundaries.

I'm going to be really honest, the fact your dd is adopted and therefore vulnerable herself through her own trauma and you've knowingly put her in a situation with someone who's been sexually abusive in the past is very worrying. If social services were to be informed of this it could trigger real issues for that adoption because of your dds increased need for stability and protection. So it's really imperative that you don't allow your extended family and your trauma to destabilise the family unit you've worked so hard to build. Obviously with an adoption there is more security but for a foster placement that could have resulted in immediate removal of children in your care if it came to light.

That must be really hard to deal with. Have you been able to access any sort of therapy/support?

I just wanted to reiterate that whatever your brothers problems are, they are not your problems. Even if there hadn't been abuse, they would still not be your problems to solve. It is wrong of your mother to look to you to solve them.

It is ok to put yourself and your needs and comfort first.

He’s been diagnosed as autistic, but I suspect that he has complex PTSD. I remember him as a little boy before he was caught up in what was happening to us and he was a thoroughly sociable boy with plenty of friends. (As I recall from a time when I was only little myself, I’m 2 years younger.)

The problem is that he claims to not remember anything, and that is very likely true as he remembers very little from our childhood at all. My DSis and I repressed our memories until we had young DC ourselves, though I had flashbacks which I didn’t understand for years and had obvious symptoms of PTSD. (We’ve both been diagnosed with that, so it’s a very fair chance that our DB has it too.)

He had a psychotic episode in the past as well and was diagnosed as schizophrenic, though he’s now been diagnosed as autistic instead.

He’s also in a retirement flat and very limited in what he can do for himself.

Yes, I was in therapy for around 3 years. I had EMDR, which really helped. So did my DSis.

Have you had counselling? You might find it helpful to establish clear and enforceable boundaries. Were ss involved with your dds? What would a sw make of you reestablishing contact and exposing your dd to him? It seems as if you have more than enough to resolve without adding your b into the mix.

based on what you’re saying I honestly have a tremendous amount of sympathy for your, your DSis but als your DB (it is possible to be victim and perpetrator, after all…).

However: That doesn’t change that your key responsibility is the safety of your children.

Your DD needs to know that your DB isn’t safe to be around. Otherwise she won’t have the information needed to protect herself!

edit: Having sympathy for your DB doesn’t mean that you owe him anything. Protect your DC and yourself. I understand that he’s vulnerable and that your DM worries. But that doesn’t make him your responsibility in any way whatsoever.

Yes, SS have been involved with our family, because of both DDs having been adopted. DD1 is a child in need, as was DD2 before the decision was made for her to move in with my DSis, my DBIL and her cousins.

The SW has said that the file will probably be closed now she’s in a specialist college.

I was open about the family history once the memories resurfaced, including my DB, and obviously there was a police investigation going on. They didn’t really ask questions about the history, they were more concerned about my own MH issues and whether I was getting therapy.

There isn’t supportive family around. Nor should there ever be.

You cannot navigate any kind of relationship with your brother, given what he did to you and your sister, albeit coerced by another. It’s a non-starter and you need to tell your mother this. Say you have come to this decision after a long time agonising over it.
Maybe write a letter to your brother stating your position. You need to be proactive, or there will remain room for fudging the issues and procrastinating.

That aside, your brother might well need support. Has he ever had therapy? You could point him in the direction of StopSO UK. I happened to hear a programme recently on R4 which mentioned it as an organisation offering help and therapy for perpetrators and survivors of sexual offending.

Just say no to any further contact and also say No Mum we will not be his support network when you are no longer around, he will have to rely on himself or the state.

It’s a difficult one, as he has no recollection of anything that happened during his childhood (or so he says) and his counsellor didn’t think we should bring up the subject with him of what he himself did himself or had happen to him. Unless he remembers it all himself.

I wrote him a letter a couple of years ago telling him a bit about what our F did, but that’s all. He still reveres him so that in itself has been a reason not to see him/. (He apparently is still refusing to accept it.)

He’s mentally very fragile so I haven’t wanted to go against the advice of MH professionals.

The whole family dynamic sounds toxic. I sympathize but the only way to phoenix your way out of this is to cut both your DB and DM out of your life. You don't need your abusive DB or your emotionally neglectful guilt-tripping mum in your life. Just focus on the family you have created against all odds.

Bye Mum.

Your age is irrelevant.

You failed to protected your son and your daughters. I'm not making your mistake so don't expect me to play happy families because you know we aren't. You don't know what safeguarding is? Frankly that's not my problem to resolve.

It is not the job of the OP to point him in the direction of anything.

If he needs help, someone else has to and can provide it.