DH and Dad fallen out and I can't see any way forward

[PumpkinTwistyWindToots]

I’m really struggling with an ongoing fallout between my DH and my dad. It all started last Christmas, the first one after my mum died, and I hosted. It was such an emotional time, and there was a row caused by my dad. Everyone was grieving and on edge, and dad behaved badly .

In April my dad tried to make amends, but he never actually apologised - he just wanted to sweep it under the carpet. DH was rude to him when he tried, and since then they haven’t spoken. I can see both sides: DH wasn’t wrong to be angry, and my dad’s behaviour did trigger a lot of DH’s own family trauma. But DH’s refusal to let it go has made my life so much harder, even though I respect that he’s entitled to his boundaries.

My dad now directs his frustration at me because he won’t talk to DH directly, and I’m just drained. I’ve decided to spend Christmas with my brothers this year, which dad is invited to, (DH’s staying home), but dad said at the weekend that he wanted to stay home and I should 'forget about him'. DH doesn't mind me leaving him for Christmas by the way - he doesn't enjoy the season much and he can see his kids Christmas Eve and Boxing Day.

Has anyone else been stuck in a situation like this? How do you protect your peace without feeling like you’re betraying someone and your own integrity? Dad wants an apology which he won't get from DH and I feel like if I give him one I'm being disloyal or something. I am desolate at the idea that dad and DH will never be in the same room again together but I want to put it behind me, but dad can't let things go if he thinks he's been wronged. He won't accept that he did anything wrong at Christmas and just focused on DH refusing to let it go.

This would never be the advice to a man if it was a wife and MIL that had fallen out.

He made a passive aggressive loud comment criticising my DH in front of his children and threatened to leave early, which upset me. I then had a go at DH unwarranted because he 'made my dad want to leave' when I was doing everything to keep my dad happy. This was after several days of passive aggressive weird underhand jabs at DH for things Dad doesn't approve of. But dad will never acknowledge that - he will just deny it and insists he didn't do anything wrong, in his mind he's always justified in saying whatever he wants and upsetting people if he feels they have done wrong to him.

To be fair to my dad after several weeks of horrible behaviour towards me we did draw a line so I thought back in around May time. But I guess Christmas coming up has brought it back up to his mind and he wanted a fight about it. I need to not engage.

No way I’d be letting my dad treat my Dh like this. Grief is a funny thing, but it doesn’t sound to me from what you’ve written that this was a one off moment of grief. It sounds like your dad has an ongoing issue with not being accountable for his actions (not actually apologising when he had the opportunity to sort this) and being manipulative (messing you all about this Christmas). Has he always done this and your mum was the buffer when she was alive?

Unless your Dh is awful generally, I’d be having his back. I cannot imagine Dh leaving me at home at Christmas to spend the day with MIL if she treated me terribly last year. No way.

Have you anything to lose by telling your Dad that this is the final conversation about it and include some carefully worded home truths about how he has always treated your DH badly and that he did have a tone when he was supposed to be apologising for his awful behaviour towards him?

And toxic men like your dad too OP never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

How to do this - you put in firm and consistently applied boundaries re your dad and stick to them like glue. Any bad behaviour from him is not tolerated. I would read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward as a starting point and get therapy re the dysfunctional relationship with your dad. There is much for you to unpick here.

You’re stuck between two stubborn men. I’d be devastated to find myself in that position tbh.

The natural order of things is that DH is your priority and who you will grow old with. I’d make sure to respect his boundaries and not try to force him into situations with your father.

Let them both know that you love them dearly but are not prepared to discuss the matter any more. Next time your dad brings it up shut it down immediately and if he won’t, hang up or leave the room. You’re going to find yourself re-living the argument forever if you aren’t careful.

Why do we kowtow? Because he's been the centre point of the family forever. Because mum god bless her was a loving enabler and acted as the emotional glue that smoothed everything over and meant we always let things go so as not to upset her. Because his wife died and he's depressed and lonely and miserable?
I am standing up to him and defending DH: that's why we argued about it, because I won't roll over and say that DH was wrong and because I challenge dad and tell him that he caused the situation and he was wrong in the first place. I also accept that DH doesn't want to see him again and I'm not arguing with that. I'm just massively emotionally impacted by the fallout and very sad about it, as well as feeling guilty and anxious because my dad is cross with me, because I still have the conditioning that was bred into me.

Why does your dad get to be dick to people (including you) and then get to just "draw a line" and carry on as if nothing ever happen.

Whether you want to admit it or not, you are never going to take anyones side other than your dads no matter what.

I tried. But it ends up in an argument and me saying things I wish I hadn't. I need a way to get past it, not aim to set anyone straight because that's not going to work

I think I'd invent a stock phrase and repeat it (broken record technique) anytime your Dad or DH bring it up.

E.g. "You are both as stubborn as each other and you know I'm not prepared to discuss it anymore".

The ball is then in their court - they can choose to sort it out between them, or not.

How near to Christmas did your dm die? It sounds like your DH reacted badly to something your DF said (what did he actually say) and then the next time they met, your DH reacted badly again because your DF didn’t immediately apologise.
wish my DH could have let it go. He did intend to - but when we arrived at the place where we were meeting my dad was grumpy and had a 'tone' to him when he said hello - this pushed DH's buttons and he snapped and dad and decided to leave. This is what dad is so angry about because he did this in front of other family members and he feels embarrassed

Among other things, I find agreeing with people helps a lot.
“Of course you don’t need to apologise Dad, no one does.”
”Of course you want him to apologise Dad, he feels the same way.”
”Yes, it’s awful, what a shame there was an argument/he isn’t coming/you can’t come round.”

People often hear more when you start with ‘yes’ or ‘and’ rather than ‘but’.

Yes yes yes I know I'm falling into the role and I fucking hate it. My first marriage was to a man like my dad and now I have the opposite. I am loyal to that and I think I've tried to uphold that throughout the past 11 months, notwithstanding my initial reaction to dad's behaviour blaming DH - and I have apologised for that and he understands where it came from.

In relation to spending Christmas with my brother - this is honestly not the issue it might sound like. DH doesn't enjoy Christmas, DS would be bored at home and disappointed, and I want to spend it with wider family. DH honestly doesn't mind this.

OP

"He made a passive aggressive loud comment criticising my DH in front of his children and threatened to leave early, which upset me. I then had a go at DH unwarranted because he 'made my dad want to leave' when I was doing everything to keep my dad happy".

Why were you doing everything to keep your dad happy - how about now doing stuff instead to keep you happy?. Why has he been put on such a pedestal; I presume you had to in your childhood home because everyone else did and otherwise tiptoed around him so as not to be on the receiving end of his barbed comments. As I've pointed out to you such toxic people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

Your dad is a toxic parent. He was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and he's just as badly behaved now as he ever was. You've been conditioned really to try and mollify such a person and even now you're still doing this. You were apparently more upset about your dad leaving early than his awful comment to your H. Are you a people pleaser as well; I ask as this often comes about from wanting to parent please such a person like your dad.

Thank you
I've spent years trying to unpick the toxic relationship and before mum died I got to a decent place - I had boundaries that worked. Mum dying has thrown it all in the air and I'm flailing.

You do not have to keep playing the roles assigned to you in your family by your parents. Drop the rope he holds out to you here and do not engage with him at all. The sky will not fall in on you if you do that and besides which you do not need his approval; not that he'd ever give this to you anyway.

Because he's been the centre point of the family forever

This says it all. He's still your priority and at the expense of your DH and probably yourself too. These things are clearly deeply rooted, but you are an adult and dont have to be passive now.

Other people lose spouses too and do not behave like this. Quite frankly, your dad is a bully and expects your husband to just fall in line - and you, having grown up around a bully and learned to live life ducking, do too. You mention your husband has his own family issues that your dad's behavior has triggered and yet you're still expecting him to just roll over. I think some counselling would really benefit you.

Agree with this! Lots of bland "Yes it's tricky isn't it. Yes I know" (channelling Sybil Faulty dealing with a difficult customer).

There's a lot of comments on here about standing up to your dad. While I agree with that up to a point, the reality is you're not going to change him. So you may as well let his grumbles wash over you instead and not let it stress you out. I think refusing to engage on the issue - or using vague platitudes as above - will be less stressful for you than trying to make your dad see reason, which he won't.

I'm really not taking my dad's side. I know that people are interpreting the choice to spend Christmas separately as not taking DH's side but you'll have to trust me on this - DH doesn't like Christmas, he only spent the last few with me under sufferance. He is very happy for me to take the hoopla somewhere else.

I’m sorry this has happened to you - I would ask them both individually to imagine the future and what they think it will look like. And ask them how you and your kids fit into this vision. It’s pretty selfish of them they won’t work it out for yoursake.

OP, stand up for your DH. No need to go into a big explantation with your Dad, he behaved badly and still hasn't acknowledged it. From what you say about your childhood he won't either but it's his loss. Spend Christmas with your husband not your brother, your DH must feel very unsupported whilst you bend this way and that to pacify your controlling father.
Boundaries need to be put in place re your father and also please consider counselling to understand why you have been trained by him to feel guilty and anxious if you oppose him.

Does anyone else think the advice from posters would be very different if it was a MIL and a daughter in law?
Some women on here are Stepford Daughters and their own family always takes priority over their husbands.
The double standards make it hard to respect advice.

Your dad's behaviour is at fault here. Your DH should not apologise to him. You should not be defending your dad - you should have also told your dad his behaviour is at fault here and just because he doesn't like something DH does he doesn't get to criticise. Your DH is an adult and can do what he likes.

Deal with your fear, obligation and guilt through therapy. There is a lot to unpick here re your family of origin and indeed your late mother was his enabler. And now with she gone your dad's behaviour becomes far more overt and nasty because she is not there to be his buffer. This is who your dad really is. Your primary loyalty now should be to your H rather than your dad and your boundaries are skewed because of the conditioning you've received since childhood.

Do you still seek or equally want Dad's approval now?