Any covert narcissist survival tips?

[pramalam]

Named changed for this one. After 15 years with my DH I’ve finally realised he is a covert narcissist. It’s like the blinkers have been taken off my eyes. Our relationship has always had challenges and I’ve struggled with a lot of his behaviours. He has been very good over the years if making me believe it was me - that I was expecting too much, asking too much, too emotional etc. Problems were never resolved, only swept under the carpet. He would never back down, silent treatment would go on for days, and I would eventually cave to talk it through. Somehow, whatever the situation, he would convince me that I was the issue. After meeting with a great therapist and working on myself, I have come to realise the patterns of behavior and unprompted by me by therapist suggested he was gaslighting me and potentially showing narc behaviours (although she obviously couldn’t diagnose). I’ve since read up on it and it explains his behaviour to a tee. He’s not overt; he’s convert, which is why it took me so long to realise.

MY CHALLENGE IS THIS: I have two children with him and desperately want to leave.,he’s absolutely fine with them. In fact, being a “great dad” and projecting that image externally is part of his narc supply. It’s me that he has a problem with and bears the brunt of his rage. I can’t leave right now and will need to wait it out for various reasons. Any survival tips for preventing his rage e.g what else apart from grey rock can you do?

hi op. Whe he rages how safe are you? How safe do you feel?

I found Dr Ramani's videos very helpful on this. You are in an awful situation. Stay strong and keep the end goal in view - leaving.

@speakballthank you for replying. I am safe. But the character assignations and silent treatment are deeply unpleasant and take all my strength to weather. But it’s also the constant walking on egg shells and censoring myself to ensure o don’t offend him or upset him that’s hardest to bear. It’s so draining!!! Especially as he feels so superior and plays out the “good guy” in public so well.

@Itsanewlifethank you! I read Dr Ramani’s
book cover to cover in the middle of the night on my Kindle. I found it super helpful and it’s actually what inspired this question to see if there were any other techniques that people had successfully used in similar situations. I didn’t know she was also on YouTube. I’ll check her out. And you’re right, this situation truly sucks. I’m so mad at myself for ending up here and ignoring some very real red flags. Now I’m two kids deep with him. I kind of woke up very late and now it’s such a mess. But we got together young and he was very convincing. Especially to a girl who didn’t have great self esteem so would be quick to agree that it was my fault.

You might also want to read this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Partners-Narcissistic-ebook/dp/B0CVB56Z9S

I was married to a covert narcissist for 19 years. Only discovered he was a covert narcissist when we separated (after many unhappy years and triggered by him) and got therapy, so you are doing better than I am! But, I am out and life after a toxic relationship is delightful!

@Itsanewlife- I’m so sorry I hear you’ve been through it too. Thank you for the book recommendation. Amazon is getting a real boost in me from all these kindle downloads. But I feel so informed and clearer about things - although that’s a double edged sword as it makes me want to leave NOW but I have to bide my time to make sure I have everything set up properly before pulling the trigger and divorcing. Can I ask if you have any advice on navigating it. I’m bracing for the worst! Were kids involved? That’s my biggest worry. He has just started using the older one as a pawn when he’s mad a me. That’s just about tipped me over the edge in terms of anxiety about what happens once we’re divorcing and co-parenting. I’m so sad that he will be in my life forever

p.s @Itsanewlifeso pleased to hear you’re out the other side. You’ve given me hope!!

Unfortunately, co-parenting with a narcissist is like single parenting with a monkey on your back (I think that's one of Dr Ramani's), so yes, it will be hard. And, yes, they will use the kids as pawns.

Lessons I've learned:

• don't try to negotiate with him in the 'best interests of the child/children' - the kids are not at the front of their minds.
• don't expect him to be an adult and protect the children (like you want to)
• get legal advice and take the legal route - they only respond to authority (not even mediation in my case, worked, it proved to be just another fora for ranting/character assassinations)
• do not engage in any back and forth with them, do not justify/explain your position, however outrageous their accusations (they will hit where it hurts most - likely parenting, your parents etc) - just ignore
• keep conversations focused and on logistics (use the BIFF technique for high-conflict personalities)
• stay safe and do not get drawn into their nonsense.
• be brave!

I'm afraid all this will take time, a lot of therapy (glad you have a good therapist), and a strong support network.

The slight to their egos is a source of huge injury for them, and they will be as vindictive as they can be. Stay strong and keep focused.

Why can you not leave now? Finances? Kids? Sooner the better really.

If you have to stay I would say it’s good that you’ve stopped caring and want to leave because it takes away the power he has over your emotions and the way he uses them to exercise control over you.

I would try and just stay out of his way as much as you can - if you cook spend longer doing so with a glass of wine and audiobook or something so as not to be around him, go for a bath in the evening instead of sharing the living room with him etc

Once you have a plan in place, you can leave safely.

Look at Dr Ramani's videos on radical acceptance. I would also recommend Peter Salerno on YouTube. It's hard, but try to keep your responses to yes, no, okay. Ultimately, the only way to save yourself is to leave. Good luck with your preparations.

@Itsanewlife wow! What a wake up call for me. Thank you for all those details. Your first bullet point about them not wanting to put what’s in the kids best interests first really hit home. It’s maddening that that wouldn’t be the case and a reasonable starting point. Oh Lordy, I need to get my battle suit on. This is going to be so hard. What did work in terms of negotiating instead? Or nothing?! My jaw is on the floor really. So sad and frustrated and haven’t even begun…

@Lmnop22and @Almostthere800 thank you. Some very good advice and tips there. Half of it is I wish he would get out the house. He works from home a lot and I’m mentally willing him to go into the office. I hate having him around so much. I’m definitely encouraging his hobbies to get him away from me… can’t bear to be around him or having him be an audience to my parenting (which is igniting jealousy and always makes me feel on edge and can’t enjoy the special moments with them without him feeling left out etc.) But will also think about how I can remove myself from common areas too.

I wish I had tips for you OP - I’m in the same situation- but with a profoundly disabled DC that needs the house we have and his adoring mother etc.
Also, at 50, I’ve started perimenopause so I find the “grey rock” harder and harder to do. I don’t care if he tries to make me suffer (he does try) - I’m not staying silent for his problem.. so I guess maybe my rage will make him leave one day

Thank you everyone for replying. I’m touched that people took the time. I think I’ve been conditioned for so long that it’s amazing to hear people provide supportive words of encouragement and empathy. I’ve been really touched by the messages. @Montereyjaaackwhat a very challenging situation for you … I haven’t factored perimenopause in yet but I often daydream of letting rip at him. I wish for you that he does end up leaving and you can live in peace with your DC.

OP, I am sorry you are in this situation.

The problem you have is that the ONLY way for you to cope is to completely disengage from his behaviours, attitudes, comments etc. Unfortunately, this is likely ot lead to him to ramp up all of these behaviours. So it is a very difficult one and to be honest, pretty much impossible.

The best you can do is to stop reacting. if he sulks, let him. If he tells you that you can't do something, just calmly say no and do it anyway.

However, as I said, this will cause the behaviour to ramp up. YOu will get more rage. You will get more yelling. You will inevitably get the kids used as a tool because i'm afraid to say, he might seem like he's a good dad, but that's very unlikely to be genuinely true. So, for example, he doesn't like it that you go to the gym. You choose to go anyway. Next time, he will either simply not be there to look after the DC when you leave or he will punish them "No kids, we can't go to football today because Mummy's gym is so important to her that she's not willing to help."

Every single thing he does to punish you, he will blame on you. He will tell the children, family, friends, that YOU are the problem. Depending on how believable it is and the history of your relationship, they may well believe him. The children in particular becuase they have no ability to understand what's going on. This could lead to additional pressure from third parties for you to be nicer. To be more understanding.

My advice is to get as ready as you can to actually leave and then to expect the divorce and childcare arrangements to be a terrible ordeal.

Oh, and please please please stop thinking you can "negotiate". You cannot negotiate. For three reasons: 1. They cannot see or imagine or understand perspectives other than their own and 2. They have completely disordered thinking. In other contexts, this would be someone who, standing outside on a cloudless day, truly believes the sky is red because they are colour blind. 3. They truly truly believe that they are the victim in every and all situations and that they have consistently been downtrodden and now it's THEIR turn.

If I had a pound for every time SIL has attempted to negotiate, compromise with her ex, and it has failed, I'd be rich. If I had a pound for every time she's done it and it's worked, I wouldn't be able to pay a packet of gum.

Final advice - whatever you do, make sure tha tyou are transparent and honest with your family and closest friends. This might protect you somewhat from his smear campaign, which will start as soon as he realises he's losing control.

The carefully curated public image is nauseating.

Little did everyone know what my ex was like behind closed doors. They found out in the end but you’d be surprised how few people cared and changed their mind about him.

Meanwhile, I used to just be very neutral. I wouldn’t have an opinion on anything really. I would not engage in conversations that I knew he’d get het up about. I used to get very sad thinking how life was before I met him.

He eventually exploded and assaulted me after three hours of frothing, screaming rage in my face. All recorded. I am so glad that I do not have to live with him anymore.

I really hope you can get out, op. I don’t want to scare you but it never gets better. Always gets worse. Please start planning. There is always a way out.

Her videos are brilliant.

OP, whatever you do, don’t let him know you’re onto him. He’ll grab it and turn it around on you and have you thinking you’re the narc. Don’t let him see any of this content you’re watching. Never say the word.

This is spot on.

This is the bit that you have to be extra careful of. Because as you stop reacting to him, he will ramp up behaviour at home but he may well also start to ramp up the "I'm a good guy. Pity my wife is so mean to me" rhetoric outside the home. If he's already using one of your DC as a pawn, this will get worse, but you will be blamed.

Do you have anyone in real life to talk to besides your therapist?

Agree with this. But you might be surprised by how many people are actually on to him, and you have no idea because he's been gaslighting you for years.

Yes, I agree, there is a phase where if you stop reacting, they ramp up the provocation, involve friends/new partners in their rants/venom. That was hard to not react to!

But, you will get through this - you are armed with the right knowledge. I learned along the way. And, did lots of yoga!

Good luck.

Having dealt with both overt and covert narcs (one of the covert ones was actually diagnosed with NPD, to their utter outrage - therapist was dumped a day later because "WTF, there's nothing wrong with ME, I need help dealing with [everyone else]"), the coverts are by far the worst, because they're so sneaky and underhanded.

You might find "Disarming the Narcissist" by Behary useful. It gives advice about how to handle narcs when you can't avoid them. It's mainly about working on your own insecurities so that they can't be instrumentalized as pressure points by the narc to keep you in a defensive, agitated, and confused state.

I read it years ago, and found it useful. It seems there's an updated version on Amamzon.

what @Itsanewlife recommended.

Take photos of every financial statement.
Discreetly plan ahead.
Solicitors all the way. Any attempts at mediation will be futile.
Set an example of what normal looks like for your children so they feel emotionally safe with you.