Any covert narcissist survival tips?

[pramalam]

Named changed for this one. After 15 years with my DH I’ve finally realised he is a covert narcissist. It’s like the blinkers have been taken off my eyes. Our relationship has always had challenges and I’ve struggled with a lot of his behaviours. He has been very good over the years if making me believe it was me - that I was expecting too much, asking too much, too emotional etc. Problems were never resolved, only swept under the carpet. He would never back down, silent treatment would go on for days, and I would eventually cave to talk it through. Somehow, whatever the situation, he would convince me that I was the issue. After meeting with a great therapist and working on myself, I have come to realise the patterns of behavior and unprompted by me by therapist suggested he was gaslighting me and potentially showing narc behaviours (although she obviously couldn’t diagnose). I’ve since read up on it and it explains his behaviour to a tee. He’s not overt; he’s convert, which is why it took me so long to realise.

MY CHALLENGE IS THIS: I have two children with him and desperately want to leave.,he’s absolutely fine with them. In fact, being a “great dad” and projecting that image externally is part of his narc supply. It’s me that he has a problem with and bears the brunt of his rage. I can’t leave right now and will need to wait it out for various reasons. Any survival tips for preventing his rage e.g what else apart from grey rock can you do?

Pre-empt smear campaigns.

How long are you to have to wait to leave? I'm currently living with one and everyone at his workplace thinks he's great, a real gent. Currently lining my ducks up. He won't be that surprised as we've battled for years. If I'd have been a subservient wife I'd have been fine but I'm "confrontational" according to him. I'm now so drained I can't be bothered to argue and sometimes he will antagonise me to cause an argument and then blame me for starting it. Sometimes I forget and I'll bite.Sometimes I'll say "you're probably right" which isn't always the best response.

I wish I had some advice that would help you. I try to think to myself this won't be forever and try to picture a positive future where I feel free to be me and not restricted.

The weird thing about a covert/coersive controller is that at the when they are acting in such an unreasonable way they are so convincing that you can't see it. Its not until later, sometimes even a couple of hours later, that you suddenly think to yourself "hold on minute, that was totally batshit/ridiculous/unreasonable " etc etc.

I really hope that you're able to get away sooner than later. Stay quietly strong and hopefully you'll get there.

The weird thing about a covert/coersive controller is that at the when they are acting in such an unreasonable way they are so convincing that you can't see it. Its not until later, sometimes even a couple of hours later, that you suddenly think to yourself "hold on minute, that was totally batshit/ridiculous/unreasonable " etc etc.

I agree 100% with this. I found it fascinating how even knowing how ridiculous exBIL was, sometimes he'd still come out with something or send a message and for a moment I'd think, "okay, he has a point", until I actually stopped and thought for a minute.

I'm so sorry that you're going through this. I don't have all the answers, and I'm still in the middle of this battle, but here are the things that have helped me:

Go to the dr and explain what's happening and how it's affecting you. Also go to women's aid. Having the abuse on record with both of these will make it easier to prove in court.

When you go to court make sure you do a dash report to cover your domestic abuse.

Make sure everything is done over text when you split. So you have evidence of the way he has treated you if he blows up in messages or twists your words.

Keep a diary of all abuse and ways he has tried to gaslit and manipulate.

Do not confront him and tell him he's a narcissist. This will make things much worse.

Get all your ducks in a row (solicitor, drs, women's aid, money, place to live with ring door bells/cameras) before you tell him you're leaving.

How old are the children? Once you have gone please watch the children very carefully for signs of abuse as he will turn his tactics on to them. He will 100% use them against you and try to turn them against you. So depending on their age be prepared to have some very frank conversations with them about how decent person behaves and teach them to question things they are told, so he can't turn them against you or make them doubt their own reality. Also let him have them the minimum you can get away with. So his influence is less.

Good luck xx

@Escapeisimminent- thank you. I can really relate with your comments. I feel like he would prefer it if I just agreed with everything he says, be subservient, and never challenged him. He always talks about how much his mum “respected his dad”. I would say it was actually a very subservient relationship. He can’t bear any challenge and it’s so so draining. He has zero self awareness it’s actually laughable. It’s the moral superiority while behaving like an absolute tool that really gets me down. Finding it really hard to stay focused on the long-term goal. It’s like now I’ve woken up to it I can see it all so clearly and now the wait to get it sorted is excruciating.

OP, I have a theory that the reason a lot of women only fully clock on to what is happening is when the children are a bit older is because quite often, it's very easy to slot into a life where giving him what he wants is easy. Kids are small, perhaps the wife is a SAHM, she's at home a lot, available, getting all the stuff done etc. But as the children get a bit older, she wants more for herself. She wants to see friends, go out in the evenings, perhaps go back to work or improve her career. Go to the gym, upgrade her wardrobe. She starts to mix with a wider circle fo people.

And he HATES it. He liked it when life was small (her life especially). And now she wants to do more, be more, experience more.

It's the exteme end of that classic statement about when your whole life you've been centered in everything, equality starts to feel like disadvantage.

good luck. It's not easy.

And yes @Escapeisimminentthey are so convincing. I can’t believe how well he pulled the wool over my eyes. Even now when I’m clearer on the situation, he’s still able to convince me. It’s only when I reflect on it after that I’m like WTAF was he talking about????

@BourneoI’m sorry you’re going through this. Thank you for sharing your experience. Some very helpful tips. Honestly, I feel like a fraud going to Women’s Aid. I just feel like this emotional abuse is so hard to explain. I can almost hear him / see him mock me for calling it that. It’s so horrible as he presents as this good guy. I’m feeling really dejected about going to battle with him as he’s so convincing. That’s even before I have to somehow explain it to the kids when he’s older. He has this crazy power over me and I feel like I will always lose.

He will absolutely fight for 50/50. If I could know that it would be only every other weekend I would have left years ago. I am really worried about what will happen to the kids if I’m not around to clear up the messes he makes or what he tells them or how he parents them. It all just makes me so sad.

@LouiseMadetheBestBroccoliPastaill definitely check that out. I am trying to educate myself, get all the tools in the toolbox, so I can deal with this. Even then I’ll feel defeated. But at least it gives me the sense of having some sort of plan

@Itsanewlifeyep! That’s what’s happening here at the moment. We’ve just had the worst month or so and honestly I think he’s still punishing me from Something I called him out on that started the whole flare up in the first place. He’s obsessed with logic, winning, and proving me wrong at every opportunity. All while positioning himself as the rational one. I’m so exhausted by the fact that he will never see it for himself.

What keepingonrunning also wrote.

Do not enter into any mediation; it will be a complete waste of time.

All this man wants to do is punish you and he will also want to punish you for leaving him because in his head he is the perfect specimen. In reality he is an abuser who deliberately targeted you (you were likely both very young and or in a bad place yourself at that time) in order to abuse you.

It is precisely because of the children that you should plan to leave with them sooner rather than later. What do you want to teach them about relationships and what are they learning here?. You can show them normal behaviour when they are with you rather than they currently seeing this abusive relationship at first hand 100% of the time. And I do not think that such a man would be able to do 50/50 because they will interfere with his job and social life. Such men usually palm the kids off onto his mother.

I agree that he will fight for 50/50. Or even full custody.

I also believe, from endless experience of watching this in real life and on MN.... he doesn't want anything of the sort. The threats are part of the control tactics.

You say he's a good dad but can I ask you honestly - does he truly, 100% put the children first? Or is he a good dad in that when he's around he's nice to them?
Who is the default parent?
who is the reliable parent?
Does he ever allow himself to be inconvenienced by the needs of the children?
Does he plan and think and accomodate them?

I'd be very very surprised if the answer to any of the above is yes.

Is he perfectly comfortable with them not getting or doing things they need/want?
Does he sometimes usethe children as a method to control you? Or to punish you?
Does he ever say/do inappropriate things to the children to portray himself as the victim either to manipulate you or to manipulate them?

I'd be very surprised if the answer to the above is no.

"he will never see it for himself."

Simply accepting that might help you. Then you don't have to spend any more time and energy thinking you can convince him, and trying to find the magic words that will make him see your POV. He won't, because he doesn't WANT to.

There's also a strategy called quiet-quitting, which Zawn Villines talks about. It's for women who want to leave an abusive marriage and have to bide their time while setting up their ducks. Here's some excerpts from one of her posts on this:

"Quiet quitting 101: How to emotionally detach from your sexist or abusive partner. What to do when you have to stay married.

Marriage is a huge gamble. And when women lose, they lose big. Men can abuse them, kill them, weaponize the family court system against them for years. And most bystanders will tell them to keep trying, to keep going to therapy, to keep asking what they can do differently until it’s too late.
Most women come to feminist consciousness too late. By then, they’re already married. And they may have spent years being gaslit, thinking that if they just communicate better or make more lists or become more deserving, their husbands will treat them like human beings who matter.

They won’t.

The truth in most heterosexual marriages is that he is never going to change. Men are taught not to view women as people, to prioritize their desires above others’ basic needs, and to never sacrifice for women. This is why they make the same arguments and excuses, and why the behaviors of sexist men are all so similar. If your husband relaxes while you work, systematically ignores your needs, denigrates your body, emotionally abuses you, mistreats your children, or engages in other acts of abuse and unkindness, rest assured that he has swallowed patriarchal indoctrination whole. He will not change until he wants to—and as long as he is able to keep reaping the benefits of patriarchy, he won’t want to change.

Every moment spend pleading with him, every hour spent in couples therapy, every hopeless page you read of Fair Play is time you have wasted on someone who doesn’t deserve it. You can’t save your marriage. You cannot convince someone wearing a blindfold to see your humanity.

I’ve advised women for a long time that, if they can’t leave, they should quiet quit—either as a bridge to leaving or as a way of buckling down and dealing until a door out opens...

...What does quiet quitting mean to me? Some helpful goals might include:

• I will no longer waste time arguing with my spouse.
• I will stop meeting my spouse’s demands or needs when I can safely do so.
• I will seek outside help rather than relying on my partner for emotional help or household support.
• I will encourage my partner to be physically gone as much as possible.
• I will gray rock my partner so that I do not inadvertently reward his abuse.
• I will center and prioritize other relationships.

"

https://zawn.substack.com/p/quiet-quitting-101-how-to-emotionally

OP, you desperately need to contact Women's Aid. The most terrifying abusers control without physical violence. Many women who have experienced both emotional and physical abuse will tell you that the emotional abuse is more damaging anyway.

What you need to do to protect your children (and yourself) is to get as much support as possible and evidence as much of his abuse as you can. This means getting involved with the professional agencies who are there to help you. Google for the number of your local branch of Women's Aid (it's usually easier to get through on than the national number).

A friend of mine is currently being dragged through the family courts by her abusive ex who is demanding 50/50 - but because she has had involvement with Women's Aid (and, in her case, social services and the police also) since before she left him there are clear paper trails proving his abuse. Therefore the courts have stated that his contact with the children must be supervised.

You must start getting support and forming a safety plan to leave.

My experience is quite different from this, no rage in fact never ever even angry with me. Anger is a negative emotion and not to be shown, all emotions should be shut down. That's what made me feel like the one in the wrong because i was upset and angry a lot due to his behaviour. He on the other hand was extremely passive, everything was very passive aggressive. I was the reason for every issue and every problem he'd ever had, but he never said that aloud through the years, he just resented and hated me more and more while pretending to my face he loved me and any issues were all in my head. I knew something was really, really off but I had absolutely no idea what it was, my head was absolutely fucked.

I think the answer to it all is to pity them. No one wants to be a narcissist, it's come from some sort of trauma. I've leant from my OH that although they have huge egos that constantly need to be stroked they have no genuine self esteem. They have no real sense of who they are and no depth, they are a performance, that's all. They want all the shiny things and believe that will make them happy, but nothing can fill the huge void inside them. They can't cope with any even the most minor rejection because they are basically still weak, terrified children who loathe themselves.

I worry for the kids, right now they're on pedestals because they make him feel good about himself, they feed his ego. The minute that's not happening he will thrown them under the bus and abandon them without a second thought. He is so damaged that all he can do is protect himself at the expense of anyone else. It's something that you should be aware of and prepared for IMO.

Yes - contact Women’s Aid and make a GP appointment. You need contemporaneous evidence of what is happening to you because of typical tactics people in your situation can expect down the line from these fuckwits. Eg. reporting to social services alleging your mistreatment of your children, reporting to your GP alleging you are psychotic, alienating your friends, family and support network from you - sometimes even your own mother - with rumours about you that people are too polite or uncomfortable to repeat to you so you won’t get to hear them yourself. You begin to realise they are distancing themselves.
You didn’t sign up for psychological warfare, just the hope and reasonable expectation of a mutually kind, supportive family unit.
Women’s Aid get it.
So does this MN Relationships board.
Very few others do.
You also need Women’s Aid’s advice on how to leave safely as it is potentially a dangerous time. Take important items/documents bit by bit in advance to store at a trusted friend’s or relative’s or hire a small storage unit.

You're getting some great advice on this thread.

I would just add - please don't bother trying to convince him of your position. It is incredibly frustrating initially, but once you accept that he will NEVER get it, it does get easier to do an internal eye roll and keep shut. My ex still spouts the same rant/narrative - time and again - I stopped responding and I basically have no contact except through a co-parenting app, so he started spouting it to our son, who does an internal eye roll too and switches off. These folks are looking for an audience to buy their bull shit narrative - where they are wonderful, long-suffering, have given SO much of themselves, and have been treated so poorly (a real victim narrative) and ofcourse everything is your fault. I started joking to friends that if he could find a way to pin the middle east crisis on me, he would.

They have no 'sense of self' underneath all the belligerence and victim narrative is real fragility. I've had my moments of feeling sorry for him. Because I know he will never be happy, he doesn't have the capacity for it. But, as my therapist told me - my feeling sorry for him is a 'trap'. Don't waste emotion - any emotion on them. Make plans and get out.

Stay away from him as much as you can.

Go to the gym , go swimming, take up a hobby anything. . I’ve been where you are and that’s what I did.

As soon as you are able to get out. Leave. You will find yourself again and be amazed at what you are now tolerating ❤️

Yes-the superiority! Even making things up to look like he's more knowledgeable! Also being annoyed because I use words that I consider to be everyday words and he doesn't know what they mean. I don't do it purposefully but he will say that no one else uses that word etc so it can't be an everyday word. Eg the word pertaining. He also learns the odd new word and then pronounces it incorrectly and or uses it in the wrong context. I don't correct him just let him make a fool of himself if he uses it elsewhere.

Oh god how they love to punish! I'd say be sure the repercussions are worth calling him out. Sometimes smile and nod is better while thinking ASSHOLE to yourself. Remember you will not convince him that he is wrong, so be sure it's worth it. Not that I'm any good at taking my own advice!

You almost have to mirror their fakeness I think. The difference of course being that you recognise you are being fake. He will genuinely believe all he is saying to you, they can be completely and utterly delusional to an extent that is almost incomprehensible IME.

But they believe their own lies 100%. They don't think they are making things up. Mine believed that if he thought something was true then it must be true. He genuinely believed that to be the case.

Yep. It's a power struggle. It's out of a sense of low esteem on their part. It's the total opposite of what a partnership should be, where you buoy eachother up and make eachother feel good. What they do is trample all over you. What's the point of being in a relationship if you're doing that to to someone else/having that done to you? As you say takes a while to realise but once you do then you can't unseen it.

Absolutely go to Womens Aid. Coercive control is more recognised now. They'll totally understand. In some eays it's harder to explain than seeing someone turn up with an injury from domestic abuse. Psychologically it's just as damaging, if not more, as it lingers in your head even when they're not around.

Reading your post stopped me in my tracks,it’s almost word for word what I could have written right now.

After years together I’ve only recently started seeing the pattern clearly: no empathy at all, constant criticism, days of silent treatment and sulking whenever he’s challenged, yet he can’t take even gentle feedback himself. Everything revolves around him; he’s passive-aggressive and self-centred, forever the victim. He actually told me I’d “ruined his life” mostly because I didn’t want a second child.

It’s such a strange mix of anger and relief when you finally realise you’re not imagining it. I’m still in the stage of keeping things calm for the sake of our 7years old boy and planning my way forward, but it helps so much to read that others understand exactly how this feels.

Wishing you strength and some peace, I am sure we’ll both get through it.
Xxx