SEPTEMBER 2025 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I have now set up a new thread as the previous one is now full.
This long runnning thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.
The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!
One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'
Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.
You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
I started with this book and found it really useful.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."
Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.
Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Gudinne got it now. That's a shame you can't have your sister there. Your mother is unwell, to put it mildly, and she is still abusing your sister, who is enmeshed. She hasn't been able to break free so far. Unfortunately calling out dysfunction and setting boundaries means we end up on our own. It does mean though that you get to have a peaceful wedding and perhaps no aftermath.

So your parents even know you are getting married and would they even know your DSis were to attend? Do they harass her for being in contact with you currently? Could she be cross that you are NC or not inviting your parents?

Your parents seem very very volatile, destructive and disruptive.

Can I pop in here to get some thoughts on my current situation? (I've lurked on previous threads)

My mum who i am very low contact with recently phoned my MiL to complain that she doesn't hear from me very much any more. I think she was hoping for MiL to agree with her and perhaps "have words" with me. Unfortunately it did not go the way my mum probably hoped as MiL is fully aware of my difficult relationship.

I find this so underhand and completely ridiculous that she can pick up the phone and call my husband's mother but she hasn't called me for almost a year. There are so many things she does/doesn't do/says that makes think 'right I'm done'. Yet here I am wrapping her christmas present.

@SlowSloths all she is doing is digging around to find someone she can gossip and bitch about you to. Over the years my mother has gone to family, friends, my neighbours, my ex mother in law basically anyone with ears to try get them on 'side' with her that I am the problem etc but the way I see it anyone that does bitch with her can also remove themselves out of my life, I would rather be alone than around people who find it acceptable for a parent to bitch about their child and even less about people who think doing so is an acceptable thing to do. I literally have no family because of my mother well bar my sister but even at that my sister who lives on a different continent anyway just does not understand what my mother has put me through. I still maintain that I am better off without any of them than have nasty gossips around me.

@SlowSloths sounds like your mother was trying to find a flying monkey in your MIL. Looks like you have your MIL on your side though and she didn't fall for it?

@Genuineweddingone shes definitely looking to gossip. I'm not sure if mum discusses me with her friends, I think she keeps up this pretence of being a doting grandmother, which wouldn't work if they knew we don't really speak. So, my MiL was an ideal candidate.

@Twatalert you're absolutely right, a flying monkey! Fortunately, although we have had our ups and downs in the past, my MiL is on my side. She gently questioned my mum on things, turning it round on her to see if mum would admit any fault. She didn't really and in fact put a lot of blame down to "people not writing letters any more". After a 30 minute conversation of my mum mostly talking at her, MiL concluded that my mum is not an 'active listener' and everything I told her of mum's behaviour was evident in that one phone call. It's almost a relief to know that my experience of my mum isn't just in my head and that there is another person who can see exactly what she is doing. Although neither of us can understand it.

@SlowSloths keep that MIL! Can you suggest to MIL to not speak to her if she tries again? Id be so worried my mother would try to get into the head of people I trust.

My mother has a friend's number and I asked this friend to not engage should she ever attempt to get to me via this friend.

Guidinne your parents shouldn't be around your DC under any circumstances. Your sister being present is equivalent to them having unsupervised access, because she's regularly tolerating abuse herself so of course she'll tolerate it for DC too. Your sister has made it clear where her loyalties lie.

Sloths if you were me that Christmas present would be going straight round to the charity shop tomorrow. She doesn't deserve it. I guess it depends if you're working towards NC though, because it obviously won't go down well. Glad MIL has your back.

Sloths

Give your mother’s present to someone far more deserving or take it to the charity shop. FOG (fear obligation and guilt) may well be the cause of wrapping your mother’s present and she was trying to use your MIL as a flying monkey.

Guidanne

Your Dc need to stay away from your sister who is in turn enmeshed with her abusive parents in addition to she having skewed boundaries. None of them on your side of the family can be relied upon.

It's the desperate hope that she will get your MIL onside and the two of them will then be able to gang up on you. I found with my narc father that he was always very keen to back up his bullying by saying that everyone thought they same way as him and you were the lone weirdo.

It's also a way of transgressing the boundary whilst also telling themselves they haven't.

I agree with the others - don't send her a christmas present. Ask yourself why you are sending it in the first place. What are you hoping to achieve/avoid?

And bear in mind how it will be received, and the message that will be read into it. In my experience, these people will always find a way to use what you've done to hurt you because they're so driven by childish emotions.

It's a tricky situation, but I'm sure you know that. What immediately jumps out from this is that you don't trust your sister and trying to maintain a relationship with someone you can't trust is really hard. That's the real reason why you haven't told her the venue, isn't it?

It is understandable that you would feel this way and it's nothing to feel guilty or ashamed of, it's totally normal. It is a normal response to a sibling who is closely tied to a parent who abused you. That sibling will always value the parent more than you, and will always prioritise their wants over yours.

I've had this problem with my own sibling, who is enmeshed with our mother. I found out the hard way that I can't tell him anything, because his immediate response to anything is to instantly phone her and tell her about it. He's also a manipulative liar, though that's a whole other problem. I don't really have contact with him.

If, and it's a big if, your sister reaches a point where she is able to step away from your mother, she will get there in her own time. There's nothing you can do to speed up the process, unfortunately. People have to make their own choices.

Hi,

Joining you all after it was suggested on my AIBU thread.

Like all of you, there is a LOT to my story. For now I haven't spoken to my 'mother' in 8 days. After I put in some boundaries around alcohol that she immediately ignored.

My heart and mind feel heavy.

Hi pontipinemum

I have read your thread on AIBU.

You feel like this because you are a reasonable person. Your mother is not and basically left you with the grandparents in order to drink and chase men. You owe her precisely nothing let alone a relationship here. She will continue to ignore you like she has done really her entire life. She also instilled the FOG buttons in you; fear, obligation and guilt.

Do not let her into your home even if she does happen to turn up on Christmas Day and starts banging on the door. Call the police if that happens and have no compunction. in doing so. If other relatives think she is great because they are so easily manipulated let them host her instead. Your children also do not warrant a toxic alcoholic grandparent in their lives.

The 3cs of alcoholism are ones you would do well to remember
You did not cause this
You cannot control this
You cannot cure this

And keep up the therapy sessions too.

Not sure I can quite bring myself not to send a present. I intentionally put something together for her so that I'm not stooping to her level. She just puts money in my bank account for us at xmas and birthdays, DC included, because she can't be bothered thinking what to get. There's always a criticism about my gift to her in some way though, so the gift giving is simply because I'm scared of her reaction if I don't send it. And also very aware that I would then be the bad person. I definitely have a case of FOG!

I don't think she's likely to call MiL again anytime soon. MiL has a lot more on her plate than what my mum has ever really had to deal with, at the moment, so mum kind of lost out on the 'woe is me' competition.

This has all come about after her coming to visit unexpectedly a few weeks back. First I heard of it was MiL telling me that she'd been asked to house her! She had to turn her down so mum found a hotel. She came two days before we went away on holiday. She hadn't bothered with a visit for 18 months prior to that. I was civil, but not particularly warm and chatty. It was the worst possible weekend she could have come.

She is not going to like whatever you give her so I would not be giving her anything. She does not deserve any of your time or
money spent on her. Her money gifts are thoughtless and have no effort but are loaded with obligation all the same. Her giving of money is also how she controls you.

You are indeed frightened of her reactions if you do not send her anything. Has she made you believe the sky will fall in on you or bad things will happen to you if she gets upset?.

She still says jump and you say how high. Indeed FOG keeps you in such a dynamic. She will not think any more of you for sending anything nor will you get her approval, not that you need this from her anyway as an adult. She will also roundly ignore any boundary you care to set her so such people are really not worth bothering about. You need to drop the rope.

What happened when she turned up at your home two days before you were going on holiday?.

@SlowSloths you know the drill and how you are still emotionally intertwined with her. Just do whatever you can cope with best right now. I also wouldn't give her a gift, but we got to take one step at a time and you decide if you are ready to bear the guilt. I get how hard it is. I had to break free one second at a time and every time I think I have broken free completely something else comes along to hand me guilt on a plate. It's never ending. I don't know if it ever stops.

I think it's guilt, besides fear. But you may have other emotions too.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

She turned up at 8pm on a school night (caused my DD with asd to have a meltdown once she'd left, due to it being unexpected) Said she'd be back the next day. Didn't turn up until 4.30 (DC finished school at 12.30) as she spent the day sightseeing in a nearby city. Sat on the sofa making no moves to leave whilst I cooked dinner for DC so ended up feeding her too. Then she still wouldn't leave when I was showering the DC and getting them ready for bed. In the end I told her to leave, just before 9pm because mum kept telling my DC off for being loud and hyper (DC weren't being badly behaved, just a bit animated because they had an audience and its standard Friday behaviour in our house.

My DB was also there, he's the one that drove her up here. I was equally annoyed at him, but he's so laid back and passive (and doesn't have kids so is maybe a bit oblivious). He assumed I knew about the visit.

They came back for a final time the following day (it was DD's birthday and no she didn't being a present) are some cake and then left.

My mum has some cognitive decline now and seems quite cute and vulnerable but I struggle sometimes to be compassionate towards her as she actively disliked me growing up. I provided childcare for a much younger sibling from the age of 12 and was a good kid but was told “she wouldn’t wish a daughter like me on anyone” and various other phrases that have stuck with me. Even now she does things like use me as a backup plan for Xmas, monopolises my Dad and calls him to sit with her if he tries to have a conversation with me etc but I am constantly feeling like a terrible person as she is so vulnerable these days. Oh yeah and she used to call me evil & selfish. That’s exactly how I am left feeling.

She was once young and abusive, now she is old and abusive. She had a choice when it came to you and she chose to abuse you
in childhood.

I presume you only have anything to do with her now because of dad (who has failed you by failing to protect you from the excesses of her behaviour), being conditioned like him to jump at her command and FOG (fear obligation and guilt). She’s the evil and selfish one here, not you and she’s certainly not cute nor perhaps all that vulnerable either. She’s also not worth bothering about. Stay well away from her going forward. It’s not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way.

There was an unexpected twist with my parents last night. I understand from my niece that my sister called my parents and told them about my wedding. My brother in law had called around to my house earlier in the evening to say sorry but he would no longer be coming to my wedding as he would need to support my sister that day as she really wanted to come but would not risk upsetting my mum. I think it's totally right to support his wife and asked about my grown up niece and nephews and primary school aged nephew. My brother in law said it was really for the grown children to decide for themselves but he didn't think the youngest would come without him and my sister. I suggested that the youngest could come with a grown up sibling if that suited. So I think that was the information that was later relayed to my parents on a video call with them my sister and her husband my nieces and I am not sure if it was one or two of my nephews. I understand from my eldest niece that my parents were angry and shouting at everyone on the video call in response to the news and said that they would have nothing further to do with anyone who joined me to celebrate my wedding, including my primary school aged nephew if he chose to come because they said anybody who attends will be showing that they agree with me that they are controlling and emotionally abusive. LMFAO at their logic. Their threat to cut contact with my sister's family has upset everyone but apparently my sister recognised it as manipulation and emotional abuse and called it out but is really devastated by threat.

@Gudinne I hope your sister manages to get out one day. She doesn't seem to be completely asleep like some siblings. Perhaps your parents will go NC with her too one day. I'm rooting for you. I don't know if that's right. I know it's all very painful for you and for her. Your parents are still working to destroy the sibling bond. They won't stop until it's done.

Did she know you were going on holiday? (I'm just curious if the timing was intentional or not).

I wanted to comment on the 'not stooping to her level' bit - I know how hard it is to say no to a parent like this, because of how we've been trained from childhood, and the horrible anxious feelings that come when you even think about putting in a boundary. So although you don't actually want to give her anything, it seems like the easiest option. I didn't give my mother presents and haven't done for years. I told her I didn't want presents in return because the presents she would give me would always hurt me more than getting nothing. So for example, she'd give me the smallest possible box of chocolates, and I would be hurt by how effing mean it was, and then she'd inevitably follow it up by telling me how much money she'd been throwing at the siblings. Last christmas she stayed with us (first time in twenty years, not happening again) and she kept bringing up the topic of a particular shop she knew I liked, and talking about how she'd been there several times and had bought herself a couple of things. That's nice, I said. My brain then produced the mad thought that she'd bought me something from there for xmas. Reader, she did not. She gave me a gift box of tea. I had a childhood flashback and realised that she'd done exactly the same thing to me before and that was why I told her not to get me anything. She talked so much about that shop because she wanted me to know that she went there too, like she was trying to make a point, but she would never in a million years have bought me something from there. And if you gave even the slightest hint that what she'd bought you was disappointing (even though it was the worst, smallest, cheapest thing she could find), she'd get all butt hurt and wail about how she always got it wrong and what was she supposed to do and I'd be expected to rush in and soothe her feelings. My father always hated whatever I chose for him too.

But IME it's really important to not let an abusive parent pull you in to trying to compete with them. We don't need to prove that we are better than them or be the bigger person, whatever the hell that means. Behaving decently to an abuser is pointless because they take it as an opportunity to funnel some abuse your way, as your mother does by being rude about whatever you give her.

It doesn't make us like them to withdraw our services because we are not doing it to cause hurt or drama. She never likes what you buy, therefore it's perfectly reasonable to stop doing it. It doesn't make you a bad person at all. Deciding to stop doing something you're not good at, saving your money, time, and energy for things you are good at, is a sensible thing to do. (BTW, I am not saying you are a bad gift buyer at all, I know only too well that whatever we gave them, they'd hate, even if it was exactly what they'd asked for, because their emotional responses aren't normal - but to take what she says at face value and stop trying to fix it. She hates your presents? Message heard and understood. You won't force her to endure any more bad presents).

I get the impression that you are still in a place where you are doing a lot of work to try and manage her emotions/behaviour. There's a book called codependent no more by Melody Beattie which I really recommend reading if you haven't already.

Thanks @Twatalert I will do my best to support my sister whatever decision she comes to, she has a lot going on at the moment and I think she would benefit from support rather than ultimatums and threats. I am surprised by the threat to cut ties, which is what they did with me when I refused to let them babysit my young children, I thought a suicide threat or some performative attempt a fair possibility as the method of control and abuse and I thought they would pin blame on me and it my sister not lash out at my nieces and nephews. I know it's a very ungracious thing but in part I feel kind of vindicated by my parents threats to cut ties with anyone who doesn't do what they are told including a primary school aged child. And I don't know if glad is the right word but, you know, I think that the fact it was on a group video call that included grown up grandchildren has created a shared experience that will be more difficult for my parents to say never happened.

@Gudinne your parents like to stir up the drama, don't they? Dear me. That sounds absolutely exhausting. But their control is slipping, isn't it, and they know. I can see now, looking back (I didn't know at the time, really) just how much bad behaviour is triggered by weddings and new babies. My wedding was the beginning of the end for my relationship with my mother. She was just so self-focussed and selfish and mean through the whole thing, and at the time I was still people pleasing and trying, desperately, to give her what she wanted though it proved impossible. I betrayed myself and let myself down in the process and still regret it. I did without so she could have what she wanted and she had tantrums about it anyway.

hugs.