So utterly confused

[Messingwithmyheadagain]

So DH and I have been together nearly 2 decades with one teen dc. He claims that he doesn’t mean to hurt me but has repeatedly said and done things which would fall under emotional, psychological abuse and coercive control.
However, he alleges that he is neither trying to hurt me or control me. I’ve got no idea how to rationalise things as on paper he’s abusive but what if he’s telling the truth and doesn’t intend it?
By leaving him am I ruining a marriage for nothing and having my DC’s life tuned upside down.

@WalkingaroundJardine he alleges that it’s misinterpreted, badly phrased humour.

Read all the posts op.... nobody has the right ...in any form of relationship...ie marriage or even ...from other posts I've read today( mil sil own parents) to bully you....ever person has to the right to live a peaceful life.....make own decisions about where they go...what they eat...how they dress...true relationships bring love and happiness .....if you wake up dreading what the day will bring.....YES...time to make changes....so leave him...build a new life x wish you all the best...

Murder and manslaughter are different in that one is intentional, one is not. Either way the victim ends up dead.

Same here. Whether he means to be an abusive arsehole or not is irrelevant. He’s still an abusive arsehole.

So your DC has been affected by the abuse as well 😔

Have you read the Lundy Bancroft book? Please do if you have not yet. Once I read that the scales fell from my eyes. You can read it for free online. Best of luck. It’s just he has you conditioned for years to think only his needs matter. I am certain he’s abusive but it’s you who needs to realise it in order for you to make the change.

what if he’s telling the truth and doesn’t intend it?
Let's imagine for half a second that he is telling the truth. If so, as a decent person, he should be horrified to hear that you feel hurt by unintentional behaviour, and should apologise and not it again. As a decent person, he will not, of course, downplay or defend behaviour that makes a loved one feel bad.

In real life, has he ever apologised for anything, ever? Even little things like being late, or accidentally waking you up?

If he made a mistake or did something wrong as a child, how did his parents react?

@jimbort I’m embarrassed to say this but I read his book years ago(2016) and identified his main type as “the water torturer” and to a lesser extent Mr right. I just can’t get past when he says “he’s not controlling and why would I want to control you?” - I don’t have the answer

Of course not , especially when its repeated.

I think it's usual to discuss many many issues in a long term marriage. All of those issues and many more.
What is strange and not normal, to me, is that your husband seems to be so opinionated about where you spend your time, your money etc instead of respecting that you have your own mind, and a life to live.
How does husband react when you have a strong opinion about where he spends a Saturday night or whether he should meet up with an old friend or attend a Bucks event? Does he take your opinion into account?

Of course he’s being controlling, coercive and abusive.
Why would anyone admit to being abusive ?!
The whole point is to confuse you so you second guess yourself and stay with him.

Take steps to leave him. Get your ducks in a row first and don’t tell him you plan to leave until you have done that. So get details of all finances etc in case he tries to hide money/ investments/ pension etc. If you are married you’re entitled to 50% as a starting point.
Speak to Women’s Aid too.

Be very aware that once he realises you plan to leave, he could become violent/ threaten suicide/beg forgiveness/ become MrNiceGuy/love bomb you/ become verbally aggressive/ tell friends you've lost your marbles or are hormonal.
All known tactics of abusers.

My exH was like yours. Never any physical violence. Just gaslighting, manipulation, controlling behaviour plus financial abuse.Until the penny dropped.
Life is so much better without him.

I was thinking about this post last night, and your point about it being intentional/deliberate, as my ex was similar, saying that he was not deliberately hurting me, so I was unreasonable to complain about it.

Firstly, your husband does actually intentionally, deliberately call you crazy. He intentionally told you to close your bank account and stop meeting with friends. He didn't do those things by accident. He chose to behave that way.

Secondly, the Domestic Abuse Act does not say that the abuse has to be intentional or a systematic campaign designed to abuse you. The law simply describe what behaviour is abusive, and that includes behaviour your husband engages in.

So even if he lacks the self-awareness to recognise that he is abusive, or simply does not want to admit that he is abusive, he's still abusive.

Most likely he doesn't want to admit to you, or himself, that he's doing anything wrong. But he knows it's wrong. If you were at a party, for instance, and you casually mentioned that he calls you crazy, he wouldn't like it, would he? Because it isn't just an innocent misunderstanding. It's bad behaviour and he wouldn't like others to know about it.

Please don’t close your bank account. He’s abusing you in many ways. Whatever you do make sure you have your own account and only you have access to it. Don’t let him have full control of your finances.

A decent man doesn't need to censor himself to not say shitty things to the woman he's supposed to love. He's just saying whatever bullshit he thinks will keep you confused enough to stay trapped in his orbit.

@ReadingTime I think it’s starting to register. No idea how to manage care/custody of dc though

How old is DC?

@Wellretired 15. So can be manipulated into stating they want to stay with dad full time and I’d have little recourse through the courts given their age

He knows his behaviour is upsetting you. What has he done to change this? If I knew I was hurting DH, unintentionally or not, I would be more aware of my actions and would actively work on myself to protect him. I wouldn't say his feeling don't matter, that he is crazy and unreasonable, too serious. When you care for someone you don't want to see them hurt. If your child is a teenager who is on his side, I would remove myself from the household. I bet they will see the other side of him after he's lost you and can't use sweet talking them as another method of control. Let your child know you love them, are there for them and they always have a home with you. He will try to use them to get you back but be strong.

Hi OP, I totally agree with other posters - I am just adding my voice, as I know hearing things many times in different ways can be useful.

pp are absolutely right, and it’s worth remembering that a LOT of people on Mumsnet- especially those who answer these threads have been through abuse and struggled just like you are, and studied the issue deeply.

Based on your posts, I’m hearing deep down that you feel you need someone’s permission to leave- somewhere inside, you need to know that you can justify it with total certainty and everybody would agree there was no choice. I understand this- especially when you have a child. We women are programmed to be loyal, to be empathetic towards everyone, to put our needs last. To be flexible to the nth degree……. So to say ‘no’, to end a relationship (especially if we have a child) can feel almost impossible. We have to surely just be more kind, more flexible, understand the other person more, give more benefit of the doubt, focus on and trust his intent, even if his actions are terrible etc etc….. it breaks my heart to hear you say “it would be easier if he hit me”. Think about saying that. I understand where it comes from - it comes from a desire to feel absolutely sure that you are justified in leaving….. but on some level you are saying you wish you could be even more hurt to give yourself the permission and clarity to leave. The sad reality is, even this might not give you the clarity… because he would say you had provoked him, he’s never ever done this before and never with anybody else… so it must be you, that it wasn’t his intent etc…… No women stuck in repeatedly physically abusive relationships if that boundary was as clear as you think it would be.

This reasoning kept me in a severely verbally abusive relationship for years- a cocktail of empathy for that person’s suffering, a faith and focus on them not intending/ wanting to be that way, the fact that they were loving some of the time, and a conviction that it couldn’t be that bad if I wasn’t getting hit. I also felt the same instincts in another relationship, which wasn’t abusive but he cheated on me. I found myself thinking ‘it would be easier if I’d caught him red handed/ if he told me he didn’t love me/ if he’d done it more constantly….maybe if there’s a next time- that will be the hard boundary…”

Feeling you still lack clarity or anything severe enough to leave is all based on this programming we get as women that to leave is a bad thing we need to justify. And also the abuse is eroding your faith in your judgement further. Feeling this way is very understandable, but it is something you need to break away from. And you can start working on your mind and breaking out of this belief from this thread.

It might be worth repeating these or other phrases that resonate as affirmations to yourself to help build that conviction and break down the programming. Saying them to yourself looking in the mirror can help too. For example:

I don’t need anyone’s permission to leave

I am allowed to leave just because I want to- even if he weren’t abusive.

i can leave if I just don’t like his hairstyle (this is extreme and might not work for you but can be powerful in creating a spectrum of agency!)

I don’t need to have more empathy for him than for myself

His intent is not relevant

Denial is the first and universal response of any abuser- they deny to themselves and to their victims. Abusers never admit anything

He doesn’t need to agree with me - my judgement is valid regardless

What I feel and believe needs to be my compass.

i deserve to be free of anyone who dismisses my feelings and views.

I deserve to be treated kindly and respectfully

I deserve to be free of control.

One final point. You mention being ashamed/embarrassed that you had already ready the Bancroft book. Don’t be - be proud that you have already started the journey to breaking free. We all understand this is a journey. It’s ok for it to take time. We want it to be quick so you are suffering less. But the reality is it often takes years and it is good news that you started some time ago. This thread is not a report card - you don’t have to always have brilliant progress to report. It’s a space for you to take time and respite.

Any human- including strong, beautiful, wise, high achieving, resilient people, can become victims of abuse. there is no shame here - just support.

Sending care and love for your journey. Xxx

@financialcareerstuff- what a wonderful post.

How does your dc feel about his dad ?
I would bet that he feels stressed and anxious around him too.
Have you spoken to him about Dad?

I ask because my DCs were actually relieved I left H. Kids pick up on a lot that you maybe are not aware of.Even when you think the toxicity is towards just you and takes place only when the kids aren’t there.

Dc dotes on dad, they game together go to the local gym together. That’s the only things they do.DC only really socialises online even with school friends. DH likes his weekends at home bar his gym sessions. Dc was part of the school football and rugby teams but gave both up so now only partake in any mandatory school activities. DH is a Disney parent - doesn’t do any parenting. Happy for them both to game all weekend and stay up to silly o’clock gaming even on school nights
Didn’t even go out to a nearby cafe as a family as I was keen to try a special they were running last weekend. It’s something dc would have enjoyed eating too.

Although my DCs were a bit older when I decided to make moves to leave ( 17 and 18), I did have a chat with them to tell them that in no way was I intending for them to not continue seeing their dad but the way he was treating me meant that I couldn’t continue with the marriage. I didn’t see it as getting them to take sides and I told them that. But the fact was, I was being mistreated and I wanted them to know that. They already knew.

So your H is having a great time with your DC. What is his role in terms of general admin of family life ? Does he take on any responsibilities / mental load ? Or does he just have a nice time with DC while you do it all ?
Re manipulating your DC into wanting to stay with him, although it’s possible, he would then have to actually be a parent ( as opposed to a mate). Quite hard work and not as much fun. How long would that last, do you think ? Yes, they may try to blame you but ultimately it’s the doing of your H.

why would I want to control you?” - I don’t have the answer

its not your job to know why he behaves as he does. That’s not a YOU job. When he says that say ‘that’s not something for me to answer’ and leave it at that. This is very much why communication doesn’t just break down with these men, it can’t even get going. They can’t ’do’ communication like you do.

I think of it like Lego. Both people need to have Lego and know how it connects to build something together one piece at a time. This is what a relationship is. Some people want to look like they can work with someone but they don’t like not being in control and much prefer to get their own way with the Lego. They won’t let you add a piece and you’ll realise the thing ‘you’ built were all his pieces. All your pieces got rejected. And they will knock your Lego apart. It is a fundamental difference between the purpose of language between the two of you.

In his head somewhere he is angry with you. Very angry. And at the moment this scenario works for him.

@Gawwwd i doubt myself so much. In case you can’t tell my self esteem isn’t too crash hot. I need to focus on the fact he knows his behaviour has hurt me and he’s done little to change other than stop calling me crazy or psycho.

@Messingwithmyheadagain

I need to focus on the fact he knows his behaviour has hurt me and he’s done little to change other than stop calling me crazy or psycho

100% right. I think if you’ve got that clear, then your head’s working pretty well. Respect and care are sort of fundamental, right? We all have times when we feel low, but those are the times we need a hand up, not a push further down.