July 2025 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I have now set up a new thread as the previous one is now full.

This long runnning thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.
You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.
'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
I started with this book and found it really useful.
Here are some excerpts:
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites
Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat for details.

Some books:
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Twatalert my mother did a version of it where she 'helped' but dictated the terms, so the help was what she wanted to give, not what was actually needed. A similar version was asking what you wanted for a birthday/christmas and then arguing if it wasn't what she wanted to give. Bonkers. I stopped asking for or accepting any help a long time ago.

My father used to do the weird thing you describe of pretending to mishear. It's the definition of gaslighting. He used to take me swimming (I never really wanted to go because it was always miserable but you couldn't say no, you had to pretend to be thrilled that he had asked and full of enthusiasm). He would tell me I had to swim 15 lengths, which is really far for a kid under 10. I would do it and then in the car home he would tell me that i hadn't done 15, he'd been counting and I'd lied. Seriously WTF.

@Ccrazysnakes thankyou. I understand illness is really difficult. I understand it's draining and depressing and I don't hold that feeling against someone. It's the games and callousness. I was left many times with a very able, fit young mum there offering nothing. Friends would rescue me and bring underwear and supplies. 2 lifelong friends who have been pretty amazing. I never had to ask them. I never do. I sit in piss stained bloody hospital gowns before asking for anything of people.

I'm upset by the duplicity and performance. My sibling is a bit more straightforward and it's obvious he has no time to be there at all. That's less disturbing than the games, manipulative behaviour and performance. He's a firm NC from me as he was becoming too overtly abusive and got to making piss taking videos about me with his boys , including having my own son in the videos ( they didn't have much choice). It was no ' joke '. That's the day I said bye ,- after the last video.

He's also been very aggressive and even contacted my ex to shit stir after he stood over me drunk threatening to punch me as I housed him in my home post split with his partner.

My mum said nothing about any of this. I'm the one in the wrong 🤦 He is the great guy even despite this behaviour to me.

Whilst wired up to machines and bed ridden in hospital, id get texts from my mother saying ' love you so much baby '.. But no action. Nothing that might help - like some knickers perhaps weeks into being stuck in a fucking bed.

This is very disturbing to me now I fully accept it. I'd cry stuck in hospital for weeks and weeks, yet would excuse the behaviour. I was crying because deep down I knew but couldn't cope with acceptance.

@Twatalert you say things that remind me of my situation. It is incredibly damaging to people who simply want normal honest relationships.

I've gone a few months not seeing the dog and I adjusted fine. I can adjust to anything after all I've experienced tbh. He happens to help me health wise as I walk, feel good in his presence and that impacts my body. But I'll find another way when I have to.

The recent final straw before falling back with nutty mum was such insane stuff that I have no idea what she actually is in that head. That was primarily involving planting photographs, ( yes, she was absolutely doing this. ) Suddenly pics of my nephew's are everywhere, falling over self to give me photo albums, ( she couldn't be arsed to get them weeks before when I asked for pictures of a dead loved one. Suddenly they appear with pics of nephews and me and sibling 🤦pictures of me and my brother cuddling as kids ( rare). Very out of character behaviour which I sensed instantly. She even got an electronic photo frame out and said ' oh dear, would you like this. It would be great for pictures for you'. I've got one already ffs which she knows. And when she presented it, it was an electronic reel only of pictures of my nephew! Who she has never been interested in, or had photos of ffs 🤣🤦. The nephew whom I'm most closely fond of tbh. ( My NC brothers son). All deliberate manipulative behaviour that's pretty appalling.

Then daily texts about my brother to me. Including made up scenarios 😭. Then telling me daily how proud her husband was of my brother because, ' look, he has installed his own light bulb and lamp shade.' and then she shows me pictures 😭 Then daily telling me that siblings giving money to people he loves and how amazing he is. ( He came into a windfall). Then every time my son went to see her, even for 30 minutes, he'd come back upset about his cousin's; missing them. ( Understandably hard for him). But he'd not mentioned them at all for months. So she was working on him. My own son came in one day calling ME abusive after interacting with her. I was just sat here thinking wtf.

I could go on and on with more examples.

Someone reading this might say; oh no that's just being paranoid. Nope. I know with certainty this was deliberate, and bloody insane quite frankly. My instincts are excellent, I simply ignored them. Now I'm doing everything to listen.

I've been NC over 18 months with sibling and have subsequently had to cut away my nephew's - whom I love and was close with ( hence the weird picture manipulation). My brother liked having my son there, part of the group and it entertained his own youngest son. So this whole manipulative shit I believe was sibling crying to mummy ( yep) about how mean I am and yo get me on side.

Knowing your mum's doing this as you're visibly obviously getting sicker and driving yourself to hospital vomiting over yourself - there are no words. It's really scary tbh.

I must have some type of Stockholm syndrome to even have capacity to talk warmly to her and still even respond to any messages.

The above stuff is the very light stuff btw. Much more dark than that.

Sorry for ranting somewhat 🤷😀

I've posted on here before under a different username.

The usual story - two narc parents, a difficult and nomadic childhood due to the selfishness of both of them. Father terminally unfaithful throughout, he finally left my mother for OW when I was 21. Been NC with him since, that was nearly 36 years ago. Mother moved back to Oz 30 years ago, I've only gone back to see her twice - for 2/3 months at a time - since. Last trip back to Oz was 16 years ago.

Both trips back were utterly ruined by my mother.

First trip, 6 years after he left, mother is 54 - spent the whole time bitching about my father, how he'd ruined her life etc. Telling me stuff about their marriage that as her daughter I didn't need to hear. Totally inappropriate. Wouldn't let me spend any time on my own/visit anywhere else. I had my then partner/friends asking me where I'd visited/what I'd seen in Oz...it was embarrassing to say 'nothing' because 'my mother won't let me'.... I was 30. Ended up bringing my return flight forward by two weeks because she was driving me fucking nuts.

Second trip, 10 years after the first, mother is 64 - myself and then husband had spent most of the preceding year saving up for me to go. Flight booked, was going to stay about 2 months. About 3 weeks before I'm due to fly my mother is diagnosed with angina. Makes out to me she's had a heart attack and is at death's door. Bringing my outward flight forward costs another £500, I 'borrow' it from MIL (who has just been diagnosed with terminal cancer). Horrendous flight out with a 13 hour stopover midway ...it takes 2 days to get to Oz. Arrive at 5am - mother is due out of hospital that same day (has been kept in for 2 nights in while they decide whether she needs a pacemaker/what meds she needs to be on). My younger brother - who now lives with her - says we can ring the ward at 9am. We do so, and the first words out of my mother's mouth is "Why didn't I go straight to the hospital from the airport?" Utterly dumbstruck, no 'hello' or even 'how was your flight, thanks for coming early'. Brother points out to her that we wouldn't have been allowed on the ward as it was outside visiting hours, that I had a heavy suitcase with me and was jetlagged as I hadn't slept in over 2 days. That lovely welcome set the tone of my whole trip. Same as the first one - not allowed to go anywhere/do anything without her. I knew almost as soon as I arrived that she'd lied to me about her health, so I accompany her to her GP follow up visit - he says to her face 'You didn't have a heart attack, you had a mild angina attack'. I have to sleep on a single mattress on the living room floor as my brother is using the sofabed. My husband is livid due to my mother's lies about her health, and that we asked his mother for money literally the same week she's found out she's going to die (she does, 6 months later). I end up bringing my return flight home by 3 weeks as my mother is being so poisonous towards me.

That was 16 years ago, I've not been back since. Was planning to when covid hit, as everyone knows Australia had some of the most strict pandemic regulations in the world, particularly regarding travelling to/from the country. I had mentioned to my mother at the beginning of 2019 there was a chance I might be able to come out that year - got a very unenthusiastic response, first thing she said was 'you can't stay here, your brother is moving back in'...after the last trip I had no fucking intention of doing so!

My now ex-husband has received a considerable inheritance and has offered to pay for me to go back...and I've now realised that I do want to go back - but I don't want to see my mother! I'm feeling bad about that. I want to see my home city, I want to see my younger brother, but I honestly don't know if I can cope with my narc mother again. I remember saying to my brother in the taxi to the airport last time that I doubted I'd see my mother again - and after the way she'd acted I was fine with that.

I suppose what I'm asking with this post is - is it unusual for me to feel this way? I really don't feel like wasting thousands of pounds, for the third time, to have a terrible time with someone who doesn't appreciate it - even if they are my mother!

TL:DR. After two previous dreadful expensive trips, don't want to waste thousands visiting unappreciative elderly narc mother.

@Not1995 yes, it's absolutely ok and makes total sense to not see her. It's only other people who will put guilt onto you or suggest you should. Other people will rarely understand unless they've lived it.

I watched a few talks by Gabor Mate recently. He says we should choose guilt over resentment every time we are in a predicament such as this. Resentment will hurt you mentally and physically at some point if persistent and ongoing long enough. Guilt will not.

You're going to feel resentment and other confusing emotions if you see her.

You don't want to see her; so don't.

If it was my son, id make every attempt to ask and enquire. Tell me exactly how I've hurt you. Let's talk. Etc etc. That's what someone who loves you does. And then takes action. There's nothing to genuinely feel guilty about. It should all be owned by your mother and not projected onto you.

Thank you so much @JoyDivision79 for your reply, you don't know how much better you've made me feel!

I will certainly look up the talks by Gabor Mate. I should have added to my OP that I'm being treated for C-PTSD, have been for 5 years now, due to my childhood. I've two brothers and none of us have gone on to have children of our own - says it all, really.

I have never heard my mother admit fault or apologise for anything, my whole life. It's always someone else's fault. After my father left, she threw her personal diaries away - she'd been keeping one every year for a decade beforehand. Unknown to her, I managed to save the first one from the bin - and read it. It was the one from the year when my parents first started dragging us around the world...she's always blamed that on my father - 'it was his idea, I didn't want to do it, he threatened me he'd leave if I didn't agree' etc. Her own fucking diary, written at the time, tells a VERY different tale (and my own memories from that time, I was 9 FFS!). She was even keener than him for him to take the government job in a fucking dreadful 'third world' (term used at the time) country...for the money, of course. The effects this decision had on myself and my brothers - and some of the health ones still effect us to this day - well, that was just collateral damage. I got so fucking sick of hearing 'children are resilient' - that was my mother's go to phrase if anyone dared suggest that taking 3 young children along may not be a good idea...this being dragged around the world didn't stop until I was nearly 15. Our education was badly affected - my younger brother ended up leaving school with no qualifications. Both my brothers have serious health problems caused by illnesses caught during those years, my younger brother had a heart attack when he was 30...luckily he survived.

Sorry for yet another novel, as you can tell I have a lot of anger!

@Not1995 it will seem unusual to anyone with a normal upbringing but it isn't unusual amongst those who didn't have a family that is truly connected. Your mother failed to foster a relationship with you when you were a child and you not caring about seeing her is the result of that. It doesn't have to make sense to anyone but you.

Tbh she sounds like any mother many others have described their mother as on this thread.
Ruby Wax said in a podcast she didn't love her parents and she didn't know who they truly were. She said they sure were adorable as children but as adults they were abusive. I could tell that the interviewer didn't know what to make of this. I think she also said she never missed them when they died etc. What you describe is totally normal considering your upbringing.

@Not1995 no, I don't think it's unusual, because I've had a somewhat similar experience. My mother moved abroad about 20 years ago. There was no discussion, it was literally presented to us as a done deal, but TBH, my overriding emotion was tremendous relief. There was a lot of pressure for us to visit them. It wasn't as far but we're still talking hundreds of quid on flights and I had two young children and not a lot of money. First visit, DH came with me and it wasn't so bad. Second visit I went on my own with the kids. She had nagged at me constantly to bring them but all she did was complain about them, and she didn't want to spend any time with them or do anything they might like (and was just really unpleasant). I changed the flights, came home early, and never went again. She was widowed and moved back over a year ago. I haven't visited. I tried to sum up some initial enthusiasm, to tell myself it would be alright, it was the right thing. I said oh, maybe we can go to X famous place for coffee and cake. Her immediate response was that it was too expensive. I just thought you know what, I CBA with this. All I asked for was coffee, and I didn't even ask her to pay, and she couldn't even manage that without being miserable about it.

@Twatalert Ruby Wax has had quite an interesting life, hasn't she? I will look for that podcast.
People are really shocked when I tell them I don't love my parents. I think the more important question is why would/should I?

@Twatalert @Ccrazysnakes Thanks so much for your replies!

@Twatalert Your mother failed to foster a relationship with you when you were a child and you not caring about seeing her is the result of that.

You've certainly hit the nail on the head there. I really don't think my mother actually enjoyed being a parent at all - she became one as it was what was expected of a Good Catholic Girl. My father (Atheist) didn't actually want children at all - somewhat understandable considering he was only 19 when he met my mother...she was 5 years older than him and ended up pregnant with my older brother 6 months after they met. Met in the January, married in the December.

I have always felt that my mother's parenting was performative - for the benefit of showing off to her large family. Once we left Oz she dropped the act. A lot of emotional abuse, neither parent showed much interest in us after that. Hence my younger brother leaving school with no qualifications. He also had a bad fall at school when he was 14, badly knocked his head. School offered to take him to hospital and ring my mother, but he knew my mother would be pissed off at him for being 'bothered' so he said no. This was the mid 80s, things (at least at our high school) we a lot more lax than nowadays. He found out a decade later he'd been going around with a minor skull fracture, that had healed badly and left him with a bony lump on his forehead...that he still has to this day as removal is considered cosmetic and he can't afford the plastic surgery needed.

@Ccrazysnakes I've thought for a long time that I don't love my parents...and like you, why would/should I? I sometimes worry that when my mother dies (my father could already be dead, I have no idea) I'm going to suddenly have this massive attack of guilt about it all. But like you, I just cannot and will not cope with the misery that being around my mother brings. It's just not worth it.

I've told my best friend, my ex husband and current partner that I don't love my parents. My best friend also has a poor relationship with his parents, so he 'gets' it the best out of the three of them. I have been accused of 'being jealous' of the good loving relationship my partner has with his parents - I always reply 'Of course I'm fucking jealous, why wouldn't I be!' He has got a lot better at understanding and also can understand why I'm now second guessing the trip back to Oz.

It's amazing she's functioning tbh. It was a podcast with Jamie Liang.

@Not1995 I admitted to myself some three years ago that I don't love my parents. It was the beginning of the end as I had asked myself how it could even get to that. They basically never created an environment in which love could develop and I also understood that there is no way they love me (they would claim otherwise).

Like you I thought what if I will regret it and wake up when they die, but it's just something people on SM say who have no idea what its like to escape abuse. I don't think I will feel differently when they are dead. I have already grieved most of it. I expect their deaths to not affect me much in a negative way. I had already cried over everything for two years before and after going NC.

I remember realising as a child that I wasn't loved and coming to terms with it; but allowing yourself to not love your parents is a separate issue. Child abuse its talked about more but not loving your parents is still pretty taboo.
As for them dying I had a trial run a few years ago when I received a solicitors letter and misread it, I burst into tears but my sadness was for me, and the fact that was it. There were no more chances for anything to be fixed.

@Thelnebriati I burst into tears but my sadness was for me, and the fact that was it. There were no more chances for anything to be fixed.

I think that's how I'm going to feel...I've already had an experience of that, when my maternal grandmother died nearly 30 years ago.

We'd had the 'normal' grandmother/child relationship up until we left Oz - when my grandmother and my uncles had made their thoughts on the whole taking kids to the third world pretty clear, and my mother hadn't liked it. So the relationship afterwards was pretty strained...and my mother in fact went total NC with her Australian family for nearly a decade in the mid 80s. I didn't see any of that side of extended family again until I was 25. After I came back to the UK I had virtually no contact with my grandmother or other extended family (mainly because my mother didn't like it if I did) so when she died 2 years later I didn't mourn 'her' - I mourned the loss of the relationship I'd had with her up until I was 9...and like you said, the fact that there were no more chances for anything to be fixed.

I don’t love my parents I did as a child but it became apparent they did not love me it’s quite a taboo subjects isn’t it

I'm really confused about my feelings ATM. Because of the extent of how covert mine is, with the fake persona constantly and significant mind games, I am often in a fog of confusion. When I'm out of contact I feel less confused.

It isn't love but there is something. I think it's the wish to be slightly deluded still. To go back to the deluded life I used to live. In some ways easier. There was love and fondness there when I hadn't consciously acknowledged and accepted what my mum was.

@JoyDivision79if you don’t feel ready to go nc could you go lc. It comes across from your previous post she reels you in with offers of help and then lets you down by ignoring your texts taking her up on it. Which is messes with you head and emotions if you decide to go lc I would take any offers of help with a pinch of salt and make alternative arrangements so not reliant on her for your own mental wellbeing

i can’t remember what I have updated on here or not but dm is now in a care home there has been some cognitive decline but she is happy for me to see her. I don’t know whether to go or not might be the last chance before she dies so I may regret not going but I don’t know what to say I don’t want to upset her but I don’t think I can go and pretend everything is ok part of me wants to say you have really hurt me with your behaviour the last few years she was very forgetful and repetitive then but also deemed as having capacity and I know she was manipulated by dsis but never said anything

or should I stay away potentially for my own mental health as I am not doing to bad at the moment I accept what dsis has done and got away with there is now only the odd trigger dh friend passed away suddenly not that close anymore but only 53 and it makes you realise how short life can be we have had numerous sudden unexpected deaths over the last few years I am beginning to feel cursed and when I see sm posts of people with their parents siblings doing things looking out for each other i don’t have that i have my dh and dc but not my dm or dsis anymore

IDK if this would work for you spendysis but if there's cognitive decline it may be that she's unaware now that she was manipulated, even if she was aware at the time. So you could go with some activity to share with her, IDK what, the old-and-batty-person's equivalent of children's crafts/board games etc must exist somewhere. Then you could just not talk about the recent past at all and stick to the present and the activities or talk about the distant past when things were fine (if they ever were). I wouldn't talk about the future because your mum doesn't really have one and you don't want her telling your sister about yours.

If it goes wrong you can leave and never return, but at least you'll know you tried and if it goes well you'll have a happier memory of her before she's gone. You could set an alarm for 20mins to remind yourself to check in with how you're feeling, so you don't accidentally get sucked into being there for hours listening to a huge rant about how you're a shit person (or whatever "going wrong" looks like in your relationship with her).

I don't think you'll be able to get closure from confronting her though. The thing about people saying sorry is if they were truly sorry, they'd not have done whatever it was they're sorry about in the first place. So I think confrontation of bad behaviour is rarely something that makes a person feel better.

This message really resonated with me. I've lurked on this thread for years - and it helps - but I'm still trying to work out my mum's batshit behaviour.

What is with the pretending to want to help? They clearly never do and as my DH says 'your mum's help is never helpful'. She throws tantrums and takes complete umbridge over something as small as a cup of tea. Or she just feigns sickness and doesn't show up. What's worse is she won't let my dad help me either. Then it's 'oh I've been worrying about you' - paying lip service but not enough to do anything.

My guess is covert narcissists like to see you vulnerable. So by offering help they get front row seats to that and occasionally have the option to play rescuer. But overall they feel superior knowing you're going through a tough time. And it's tough for us because it makes us feel a hundred times more vulnerable.

What's bad is I prefer this to the other situation - where things are going well for me and she goes out of her way to sabotage it to sooth her own ego. She's ruined birthdays, graduation, birth of my kids. I'm her daughter but it's like she's created a competition I don't want to take part in.

@SharkyandGeorge5 thank you. And all others for replies.

I realise quite accutely how infantalised I've been to the extent I can speak like I'm 10. Most healthy fully adult people would not understand what I write and why. I read it back and it's infantile when I'm re interacting.

I'm at a place of total independence now luckily. There is zero reliance thank goodness now. So I did sort out my own car issue and got a taxi and am doing this continuously. Exceptional low contact is the only way.

My brother is in his 50s and our mum bankrolls him although he earns a lot. He moans to her about me, she mops up his awful behavior, he moans to her trying to get her to manipulate me ( the weird photo/ nephew debacle). It's very weird and gross.

I always felt incapable of being adult and adulting and this is deeply ingrained. My mum has absolutely created this. I don't know exactly how. It's a learned helplessness. And you are so right - she enjoys front row seats to my vulnerability. You can't win. Nothing works or sits right with them if you desire and demonstrate free will, independence and a voice.

I think the learned helplessness was due to her doing everything, going over board to rescue you through words and a tiny sprinkle which is exceptionally convincing and seems loving. But then would drop you in a day. This is what I had growing up. She'd do it with my son before I put distance there. She'd probably still shower him hands on as a teenager if she was caring for him ( no joke) but she would absolutely leave him floundering if real shit hit the fan in his life. Multiple examples of this.

I realise only now that I am the strong one, with a backbone who delivers action and makes things actually happen. You're convinced your whole life by them that you're weak and pathetic. It's the opposite.

@Spendysis from what you write and how you write it, it sounds to me that a huge part of you needs to go. So go. And then you will never regret and romanticise anything in your mind later down the road.

It's never a good idea to confront, especially if it's a lifetime of behavior and everything about who she is. She won't take responsibility and she isn't that same person with her cognitive decline so that would all be a painful and frustrating conversation for you.

I agree it's good to plan really well what to say, what to do with her, how long to stay and exactly what will make you leave and how you do that. If be prepared to get up and walk out personally at any triggering or unkind behavior and words. Because the potential for anger and resentment here is big if you don't know how you're going to act in your best interest in advance.

I would not mention your sister. You can't influence any part of that at all. So don't even go there or ask her. Say nothing. Try use this as closure for you only through physical presence with your mother, not through conversation.

@JoyDivision79@SamAndAnniethank you both I know you’re right I probably should visit her before it’s too late and there is no point in explaining how I feel maybe I am being naive but she probably doesn’t even know what she has done. She is old and vulnerable and has just done as she is told by dsis who unfortunately she trusted to look after her and her money I don’t even know if she knows why we are nc or what version dsis has told her as i have never mentioned dsis to her since dsis blocked me

@Spendysis I would say if you deep down want to go and what is holding you back is fear of your feelings, then go, but do it with the mindset that things are going to be difficult afterwards and have a plan in place for managing that.

But if deep down you don't want to go and would only do it because it feels like something you should do, then I would go with your gut. In the end this decision has to be about what's right for you.

FWIW I suspect that care home staff are very used to families with difficult dynamics and they may be more supportive than you expect.

@SharkyandGeorge5 it's interesting that you describe your mother's help as unhelpful, because that's exactly how I would describe my mother's helping. It makes things worse.

I think that offering help they don't want to give is about two things - painting a picture of themselves as decent (and not the problem) because decent people offer help, everyone knows that. And then when the help isn't helpful (or not a genuine offer) they can blame you for being difficult and making it impossible for them to help when they explain it to other people later, thus painting you in a bad light and earning themselves support from flying monkeys.

@JoyDivision79 my mother throws money at my male siblings too, and there's a very weird enmeshed dynamic. I strongly suspect that at least one of them lies to get her to give him money. She doesn't give me anything. I haven't had a birthday present in years because I made excuses about not wanting them any more/being too old/not needing anything. It was easier than dealing with the whole performance of being asked what i wanted (or not asked) and then given something that I didn't want at all. I found that so hurtful. When I tracked back through it I realised that it had deep roots in childhood when I had often been given things that weren't what I had asked for. I mean seriously, why go through all the performance of a letter to santa and then not buy what was asked for, or buy a different version of it. So I would have my heart set on it and then have to swallow the disappointment and fawn over a toy that wasn't quite what I'd wanted because if you let any of that disappointment show, you were selfish and horrible and ungrateful. The stupid thing is, I'm still vulnerable to it. When my mother visited at christmas she kept going on and on about how she'd been to a particular shop (one she knew I liked) and I stupidly had the thought in my head that she'd got me something from there for xmas, and that maybe I'd misjudged and she could be nice to me and actually see 'me' after all. I was wrong. She'd bought something from there for herself and the xmas present she did give me (first one in 20 years) was so naff and mean and something I literally couldn't use.

I also recognise the situation where you are left unable to make a decision. My father was an absolute master at this. The trick is to continually put people in situations where every decision they make is wrong but in ways they couldn't predict in advance. You become pathologically indecisive and crippled with fear. The way I dug myself out of it was to go OK, maybe this is the wrong choice, but I'm OK with it being the wrong choice, it won't kill me. Maybe I will look stupid in this dress, and I do look horrible and people will be ashamed to be seen with me, but even if all those things are true, it's OK. I will cope, the world will not end.

We’ve just been away on a lovely family holiday with just us and 2 kids. It was nice to be away and rubbish to come home to the same old shit. God how amazing would it be to go on a year travelling trip in a campervan. I hope everyone is ok?

Ive just come to the conclusion that some parents just aren’t interested in being parents, they are selfish and too self oriented. They wanted the kids, they want to be the same but they don’t want the life long commitment and connection. They want their kids to inhabit their world and not the other way around, they inhabit their kids world as it should be. It is what it is, shit and unlucky to be the children of these types tho but the problem is them not us.