Are you in OLD? Is “Mankeeping” the new black

[GrandmasCat]

Back in OLD in my 50s. Jesus! Can’t believe the market. Most men I have met for a coffee are professionals, some with very respectable careers, 80% in early retirement or part retirement so we can infer, affluent, all of them between 53 and 62. Common denominator… all of them but one appear to need emotional support to one extent or another.

I was thinking that it could be age related, single older men looking for a potential carer in a partner, but then they are not that old and all of them seem very fit… but one, who is, incidentally, the only one that appears not need to be mothered.

I came across this article in the Guardian, about Mankeeping. Are you experiencing that with other age groups?

I know men have been complaining for years about women just wanting a free meal but, I feel sometimes like they are just looking for a mum…

article to follow, when I find it again…

I don’t know if that is possible anymore without paying for a subscription.

I was listening to something recently that said as times have changed, women make the effort to do find a community and will identify her shortcomings and look for ways to make it better.
In general, men just get upset that times have changed and do no self reflection, so don't see their shortcomings, thus no self improvement.
If these podcast bros spent their time supporting men instead of moaning about women, who knows where we'd be.

@MissUnicorn yep, I moved to a new town a couple of years ago. I must admit I haven’t made the effort to make new friends. I am dating someone but I would never think for a second a man can or should replace the need for friends.

I actually have a lot of good friends around the UK and the world so I’m not friendless, but I feel it’s still important to get some local friends that I can see more often. Especially as I WFH.

I’ve already been looking into going to coffee meet ups and joining a hobby group. The only thing that has held me back is poor public transport and me still learning to drive but license or not, I hope to attend a few of these meet ups over the summer. And hopefully meet a few new friendly acquaintances some of whom will eventually become friends.

As entertaining as Mumsnet is for getting regular interactions, I do still need to get some irl woman to woman chat! Lol

@MissUnicorn Can I ask why you haven't made the effort to make some friends or hired a therapist?

First thing is that I avoid all socialising because of mental health issues. I strongly dislike socialising and social events. On the very rare occasion that I do find myself at a social event, I will make my excuses to leave early and get home.

Second point is that male friendship circles tend to be activity-driven; a group of men that hang out together because they have a common interest. I don't share the common interests that many men have.

Third point is that friendships between straight men are quite superficial. There wouldn't be an opportunity for me to discuss anything deep or complex with another man. If I told another man anything personal, or anything related to my mental health issues, he would likely go and laugh about it with his other male friends.

Is it something that just simply didn't occur to you or do you feel that it's a woman's role?

No, I don't believe it's a woman's role. It would make sense that women would also seek emotional support from their male partners. And I imagine that gay men in relationships would seek support from each other, with no woman involved.

@GrandmasCat I understand where you are coming from and I’m sorry you have that situation. But if you have no friends (I have been there, it is not me trying to be mean), you go out and find yourself some. You don’t rely 100% on your partner to provide for all your emotional needs. You are there to support as well, and how is she going to feel supported if she is the one supporting all the time?

A social circle of men will not provide any emotional support. Also, men generally socialise in groups- not a situation for emotional support.

But the main problem is that a man that is mankept, doesn’t bring anything in to keep the relationship alive: no new stories, no interesting conversation, no enthusiasm, no new adventures, he is just another person to carry. It is just like having a relationship over a conveyor belt.

You know, there are lots of people who don't have stories, or interesting conversation, or enthusiasm, or adventures due to the negative life circumstances we found ourselves in. Not all of us have wonderful happy lives like on the TV.

Whining and dining??

😂😂 love a good pun lol @proximalhumerous

Well considering some men tried to offload before I even met them for me it was more “whining no dining”!

On a serious note though I have two older brothers, no sisters - they are close to each other and they each have close male and female friendships. I have actually became friends with a couple of their friends through them and they’re lovely.

My Dad and Uncles have close friendships too. Last time I went to see my uncle who lives abroad, he was living in his mates house since he had lost his job and has some mental health issues.

I have married/partnered male friends who have various healthy close (platonic) friendships with both men and women. So I know it can be done. More men should aim for this instead of trying to rely on a Female partner for all support.

He shouldn't be doing it with dates. Unfortunately a lot of men have no friends to confide in and no partner, which is where they go wrong in unloading on dates in this context because they don't have anyone

To be honest, part of the reason the Mankeeping “article” rings a bell is that I also got a very weird message from someone who liked my profile, and whose profile I liked back possibly missing some important sign:

The message not only included details of whatever traumatic circumstances he had (nothing unheard of if you are divorced) but instructions on how to approach them ranging from how to behave to avoid him being suspicious of cheating, being quiet when he didn’t feel like talking to letting me know he didn’t like dogs and therefore should lock mine away in a room when he was visiting.

It was all about how to adapt to his perceived needs and traumas to avoid stepping on a bruised toe… in the first message. (Blocked and reported without a reply, obviously)

Now, I have a friend who, being a woman, has similar expectations when it comes to dating. For her it is all about receiving emotional support but she doesn’t seem to click that she should be offering something positive back.

I had a job similar to yours OP, but unlike you, I was drained from providing emotional support to so many people and longed to have a partner who would share his emotional burden and feelings with me. Mine's the strong and silent type, absolutely doesn't do feelings, bottles everything up. He might share work stress but months later after it's all been resolved and more as a casual throw away comment which when I ask more about I find out he'd been stressed and dealing with difficult stuff on his own. He's always been like this, before and after that job so it wasn't because he thought I had too much on my plate.

I have always found men who bitch about the ex and who have a list of do's and don't's.. I think they're trying to be vulnerable and upfront but it can also come across as manipulative and intense. I think a lot of middle aged men who are dating again are bitter with their financial situation and think that telling us their life story upfront will make us connect to them.

This made me laugh, you should have screenshotted the "Constitution Of How To Look After A Random Man"!

I think if you just keep on consistently meeting new people you'll be fine over a few years.

The weirdos are prominent just as they never meet someone who meets their rigid expectations. So they'll be online dating permanently.

But it only takes one.

Maybe treat online as an adjunct way to meet new people rather than the only way?

I find that my arty/hippy/spiritual networks and interests definitely tend to attract more emotionally mature types.

One thought. Do you specify on your profile something like you yourself are looking for reciprocated emotional support?

I wonder if this attracts the socially inept types who want to trauma dump or exchange trauma dumping?

As pps say, it's a bit more normal to get to know people, build a friendship or a romantic connection based on lighter socialising.

then if stuff happens to come up you respond appropriately. I'm emotionally supportive and loyal.

but I'm also boundaried as I know that as a solo woman there's structural societal pressure to take on wifework/cognitive load (whether it's dates or "difficult types").

I find the type of person who wants to get overly involved with "emotional support" straight off is often a bit odd or controlling or desperate.

Often (sadly) they have some ongoing issues with emotional maturity which can't be fixed.

You could just keep your profile quite light and minimal ("looking to meet nice new people for a coffee!) and screen when you meet and see if they're someone you'd like to get to know over time.

If you were male you would just put on your profile “I don’t want any dramas or crazies”! They do it all the time! It’s a complete red flag from my point of view as it suggests they drove their ex up the wall! However, if it’s good enough for them it’s good enough for us too!

I thought the same-how can OP make this assumption after meeting for one coffee?

Just put ‘no victim behaviour/ no wallowing in self-pity’ - it’s tedious in either sex, but does seem to be a bit of a male trait these days.

My grandmother was a relatively young widow and had a lot of male suitors. She wasn’t remotely interested. Two husbands needing all sorts of looking after had well & truly put her off.

Yes, men are a bother, aren’t they? For a long time after my divorce I looked at long-married couples together and felt pity for those women trapped with men who treated them with contempt or had nothing to talk to them about.

On the other hand I am now emerging from years of raising kids alone. I have some leisure time and suddenly the world all seems coupled up again. I’d like someone to go out to dinner with me and even join me on holiday. I’m not so sure about any of the rest of it though!

I’m 35 and have also worked in roles where I ‘fix other people’s lives’, particularly high-achieving men - mentioning age to make the point that I think it’s the same at any age.

A couple of points:

• IMO emotional support is a normal part of a relationship, if you’ve been single for a bit you get used to a more independent mindset and someone being needy can seem annoying
• Generally the more high-achieving men are the neediest, happy to elaborate further why but it would be long! However, generally, they’re most used to others doing things for them, being worshipped, thinking what they do and who they are is very important etc
• Men mostly turn to their partner/ date to get emotional support. Women have a diversity of outlets and tools to deal with it, men want a partner to be everything for them. They’re largely programmed to only turn to women to emotional support, especially the age range you’re talking

OLD:

• It’s the gathering place of people who THINK they’re ready to meet someone, or want to see if they are, dip their toe in etc. Most people that seek it out probably need a therapist, not a date. I can’t comment on women as I don’t date women but I only go on it when I’m going through something or feel lonely, if I’m in a good headspace I don’t OLD
• Thinking back to almost every person I met via OLD, while they were lovely, they were mentally not in a good place and lonely. Again, this included people who outwardly seemed to have life very together. Then again, in today’s society few people seem to mentally thrive
• While I’m equipped to deal with it and some deep sharing is great, they were very needy and it seemed to add so much extra work to my life, so I gave it up

Only meet men in real life now like I always used to, get to know them properly and if I still like them after a few months and get feelings, date them.

These men have been great listeners, not constantly texting and calling, perhaps a little avoidant even, not desperate to meet someone and tie them down like the OLD guys, and I’ve known and trusted them which has made dating much nicer.

My recommendation to avoid meeting the kinds of guys that annoy you is not to use OLD.

How do you meet men in real life? I barely meet anyone new. I don’t go into bars and talk to random men. Work is not an appropriate place to meet anyone and besides I’ve worked with the same bunch for years - small world and small turnover. I just don’t meet anyone! Random men don’t chat me up. Never have and now I’m in my 50s and invisible.

We are different, I think. Looking at my son’s friends. They only became close after spending a lot of time together doing something else, something that along a conversation to happens on the side and allows some shared activity >>> where the activity us the main thing and the friendship flourishes on the sides of it.

I think it is different with women, we connect through conversations and normally quite quickly. No need for common activity as long as we share a experience, we are open to friendship on most occasions.

'Mankeeping' = men making women responsible for keeping men happy. Again.

Man miserable = woman's fault.
Man angry = woman's fault.
Whatever it is that happens to be wrong in Man's life = woman's fault.

Can they really not accept any responsibility for anything?

"Work is not an appropriate place to meet anyone"

Really? I worked in computing (male dominated industry) for 30 years and most of my friends (M&F) and boyfriends were colleagues or friends of colleagues. We all behaved sensibly and professionally.

Now I'm retired, I reckon I'd start with ParkRun. I was at a local one today, thinking about joining, not interested in dating, but:

• everyone I spoke to was friendly
• way more men than women IMO
• it's free
• it's good for you
• peeps apparently socialise afterwards
• you can walk/run or volunteer
• it's all over the UK

Good luck.

To be honest last 2 boyfriends I met through work. Obviously you shouldn’t date work/ clients as a dating pool and take it lightly, but if you get to know someone over 6 months or longer and both really like each other, look for ways to talk and spend time, and get on like a house on fire, just go for it!

Obviously in some industries it’s less acceptable but in my workplaces many people still meet at work.

More generally though, I meet both men and women just in everyday life. I’m currently single and consciously wouldn’t consider anyone I work with. I do a lot (academic events, outdoors, sports, food, out with friends, different coffee shops, day trips etc) and when someone makes a comment, I’ll smile and reply and a conversation might start. It’s never ‘chatting up’, it’s casual conversation with potential.

Think you’ve got to have a certain degree of openness to make IRL work. You could be Miss World but if your body language says ‘leave me alone’, you will be left alone. Or you could be an ogre but if you seem warm and approachable, people will likely approach you.

I’ve also started a new rule that if I fancy someone anywhere and they don’t come over, I have to. This started after 2 attractive guys were checking me out in the theatre and book shop and almost came over, but didn’t. Men generally more shy approaching these days as it’s considered creepy.

This month for example I got a guy’s number after I sat next to him on a bench to eat my lunch and he asked about my book, and another came over after we flirted across tables in a coffee shop and we’ve already been on a date.

Do you go to weddings, friends’ parties, socialise in places where strangers are also present?

Gotta confess, not once in my life have I met a man in a bar or club, I insist it’s a myth 🤣🙈

Do I go to weddings? No I do not!

1. Nobody seems to be getting married these days in my social circle.
2. Having been divorced, I have come to view the wedding ceremony as a deed of enslavement and it makes me feel nauseous to think of celebrating that. The last wedding I went to was before Covid - a colleague’s. I made myself go.