Are you in OLD? Is “Mankeeping” the new black

[GrandmasCat]

Back in OLD in my 50s. Jesus! Can’t believe the market. Most men I have met for a coffee are professionals, some with very respectable careers, 80% in early retirement or part retirement so we can infer, affluent, all of them between 53 and 62. Common denominator… all of them but one appear to need emotional support to one extent or another.

I was thinking that it could be age related, single older men looking for a potential carer in a partner, but then they are not that old and all of them seem very fit… but one, who is, incidentally, the only one that appears not need to be mothered.

I came across this article in the Guardian, about Mankeeping. Are you experiencing that with other age groups?

I know men have been complaining for years about women just wanting a free meal but, I feel sometimes like they are just looking for a mum…

article to follow, when I find it again…

Women aren't interested in men's problems, they're expected to be strong and in control. At least this is the manosphere trope.

Covid has decimated some male circles, especially younger men, mid 20's.

What do you mean?

It is tempting but it would be outing, unless you are somewhere in Greenland or something of the sort? 😁

I think that is right, a lot of men friendship groups that used to get established in A levels or university didn’t, as they were in lock down or studying online. Many students spent all these “socially formative” years stuck at home or in their bedrooms in uni.

A very large percentage of men over 30 don't have male friends, hence the old joke that Jesus' biggest miracle was being a 30-something man with 12 close male friends.

So I'm not really sure where men should go to for emotional support when their partner (who is also supposed to be their closest friend) is complaining about it. Or perhaps society shouldn't be telling men to be open with their emotions after all.

I do think many men (not all obvs) both consciously but more often subconsciously want a woman to fill the role of mum. I know several perfectly intelligent men (across different generations) who couldn't function on a daily basis without their wives, or who believe that they couldn't.

Frankly, if my closest friend was using me as her therapist all the time, I needed to book her appointments, ensure she had fresh air, good food, had clothes washed and ironed and slept at the right time…. She probably wouldn’t be my friend anymore. Quid pro quo and all that, I do not need another child.

This thread is not about not allowing the men to open up, it is about doing everything for them. I guess some women would be ok with that behaviour if the men are contributing in other ways like paying the bills, doing most of the house work or child rearing but, if they aren’t, what are the women getting out of it? Just more work, isn’t it?

I'm OLDing men in that age bracket, and I haven't particularly noticed it. Dates usually talk about how you're finding the app(s), work, where you live (town, rather than exact address,) and nothing wildly exciting usually. I haven't tales of trauma at all.

My current profile says nothing, just 3 photos. It doesn't seem to affect the number of likes I get (so I'm leaving it for now, just to see if anyone cares.) In contrast, I won't swioe yes on a profile where he can't be arsed to fill anything in. So I think men and women approach it differently.

I would be put off a guy who appears to be using dating as a substitute for having his own friends o'r activities. If they can't entertain themselves at all, I don't see how they will be able to entertaining me. One guy objected to me not being available to meet one evening because I had a language class. When I started OLD, I made a rule never to cancel existing activities o'r friends for a date - it's a rule that's not let me down, and most men are fine with it.

And I’d also add to that a man (or woman) should not be using the person they meet on a first or second date as emotional support. You’re supposed to keep things reasonably light. It’s not really the time to “open up” in that way.

I’m late 30s and I’ve not had this particular issue with a lot with men, but I’ve had a couple of them try to offload in their first few messages.

I asked one guy how his day was and he said “good but I’m so completely drained and tired” It would be fine if I’d been speaking to him for a while but I’d literally just matched a few minutes earlier. I just unmatched him. If he starts off like that I can’t imagine what he would be like if we actually met.

Another guy said in his opening or second message to me that he’d been pissed on all day. He was a carer so I think he meant literally. I just unmatched him too.

@GrandmasCat This thread is not about not allowing the men to open up, it is about doing everything for them.

OP, the thread is about "mankeeping." Did you read the Guardian article? It's not about women having to book appointments for men (is that a thing?), cook for men, wash and iron clothes for men, and rear children for men. I would like to think that it goes without saying that men should be contributing to domestic tasks.

The issue discussed in the Guardian article is the fact that a huge number of men do not have any friends, so the only person they have for processing their thoughts and emotions is their significant other.

I am one of those men who does not have any male friends. You have to understand that when people don't have close friends, and don't have an outlet for processing their emotions, they end up living inside their own minds and a grounded sense of reality is sometimes lost. A lot of the time, a second person is needed because that second person will be looking at problems with a fresh and unbiased mind.

I have made a number of incredibly bad decisions in my life, and I attribute that to not having a second mind to think through my problems. I imagine that if I had ever had a girlfriend, or a wife, then her reasoned voice would have helped me to make better choices.

I am going to get a lot of hate for saying that because obviously the concept of "emotional labour" is deeply unpopular among women. But if men can be helped to be better people, is this not a beneficial thing for everyone?

@Juic I asked one guy how his day was and he said “good but I’m so completely drained and tired” It would be fine if I’d been speaking to him for a while but I’d literally just matched a few minutes earlier. I just unmatched him.

That's a bit extreme to unmatch someone just for saying they are tired. I would have thought it would help to foster a closer connection if two people were able to be honest with one another.

Would you prefer the man on the dating app who seems freakishly happy and cheerful with you and gives off creepy "nice guy" vibes?

I haven’t read the article, but nothing turns me off more than a man who needs to be mothered. And not just mothered as in cooking, cleaning, taking care of life admin: I was much more worldly than ex-DP and it was always me introducing him to new things and new experiences - travel, music/festivals, exercise & fitness, skiing, hiking. He didn’t seem to do anything before he met me or with his friends other than drink and watch sport (and not because of affordability, these were wealthy ex-boarding school men). He couldn’t even drive let alone ski or sail. I want a partner who expands my world as much as I can expand theirs, but with him my world became smaller. Consequently, after a year, I lost all sexual attraction to him and eventually we broke up.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I hadn’t considered that young men weren’t spending physical time with each other and if this is damaging to their friendships overall.

Obviously it didn’t last forever, and young women were impacted in the same way, but it’s interesting if it has had more of a negative impact on men and why this would be. Maybe girls and women are better at communicating via phone and SM, although in my experience boys do this just as frequently. As I say, will be interesting to see why this is the case.

Anyone have any ideas?

I’m the usual 50 something woman who has been put off men after a long marriage to an inadequate man and observing this ‘support human’ model in most couples I know.

My adult children have just visited ex and actually said ‘He needs a woman’! He has worked his way through a few but messed it up every time by treating them poorly. Now sinking back in to drinking too much in front of the TV and living in chaos. Not my problem to sort any more. It’s sad and I already feel sorry for the next one as he will be looking for a next one. Has always relied on a woman to shape his life.

The irony is that I actually enjoy caring for people. Cooking and cleaning and making a lovely home. Organising a full and productive life. Making sure everyone is happy and healthy. I would make a great wife for a man my age but refuse to be taken for granted and cheated on and used while being relied on. Will spend my energy on myself and the DC instead.

@shuggles
But if men can be helped to be better people, is this not a beneficial thing for everyone?

Women are not ‘helpers!’ It’s incredibly sad and unattractive if an adult man does not know how to be a better person. How do you think women know how to be functioning adults but men need help? This is exactly what the OP is getting at. Adult men who need a mum.

I understand where you are coming from and I’m sorry you have that situation. But if you have no friends (I have been there, it is not me trying to be mean), you go out and find yourself some. You don’t rely 100% on your partner to provide for all your emotional needs. You are there to support as well, and how is she going to feel supported if she is the one supporting all the time?

My ex had wonderful friends, lovely guys. They were definitively one of the main “green flags” I saw on him when I met him, but as soon as we started spending more time together, he didn’t look much interested in seeing them regularly. They had supported him a lot when he split with his wife but once he was “coupled” again, he was happy with my company so was not interested in keeping in touch.

So…How did that affect me? He didn’t take any initiative to organise something fun, I didn’t have time to do my own thing freely because he was always around, he wouldn’t get himself or ourselves out, he just gradually let me decide on our social life, because you know, “I’m easy” he said, “I’m fine with whatever you decide” so then, it became my job to keep him entertained and amused (without any clues or suggestions from him on what he may like) and just for him to be walking around like a stroppy teenager who didn’t want to be there no matter how “easy” he said to be.

But the main problem is that a man that is mankept, doesn’t bring anything in to keep the relationship alive: no new stories, no interesting conversation, no enthusiasm, no new adventures, he is just another person to carry. It is just like having a relationship over a conveyor belt.

So these days, when someone invites me out for the first time and says he is happy to go with whatever I want… I just switch off, if they cannot even be arsed to organise a first date, I can imagine was to come. I have been there, I’m not wearing that t-shirt again.

Nah it’s not extreme to me at all, a man who has not even met me in person that is comfortable to begin with saying he is “completely drained” is definitely going to be the type of man we are describing in this thread. I’ve seen how conversations like that go on OLD.

Massive difference between saying ah i’m a bit tired it’s Friday but thank goodness it’s the weekend, and “ I’m completely drained and tired :/ ”.

You don’t need to be “freakishly happy” either - why would you be? There is a middle ground that thankfully most people are able to find.

As I’ve said would be different if I’d already got to know him a bit but not in the initial exchange.

ETA: If I’ve literally just matched with someone that day and not even met them online definitely not looking to “foster a a closer connection” in the initial chat based upon sharing aches and pains.

We should be keeping things fairly light in the first few messages and exchanging the basics. For example I used to have sleep issues but I wouldn’t have told a guy that I was a zombie today as I had an insomnia flare up - or my anaemia had sapped all my energy and I’m lying on the sofa etc in my second message. I’d say it to a guy I’m dating sure, to make him aware but not some man I’ve not even met irl and have only just connected to online that day. There’s a time and a place.

Pretty standard for today's Guardian.
Not the paper it used to be.

It’s a joky article but there is definitely truth to it. Men in general just don’t put the effort into maintaining friendships and are over-reliant on their partners for emotional support and providing a social life.
a dating green flag for me is a guy with his own friend/family support network. But they also need to be willing to find time and space for you in their life.
8 years after divorce I’ve finally met someone amazing. He has a great circle of friends and extended family and he includes me in events with them.
There are good guys out there in OLD, it’s just they are few and far between. I’ve recommended it before but the Burned Haystack Dating Method group on Facebook has some great advice on how to weed out the time-wasters.

That sounds interesting @ChiaraRimini I’m not on Facebook but I’ll google Burned Haystack Dating Method. I think I did a pretty good job of weeding out the timewasters etc when I did OLD, but wouldn’t mind reading more tips on that should I ever need it again. Lol

Ultimately nobody cares about a man's problems is a harsh truth. Unburdening on their partner won't help them, they need male friends.

The thing is, the OP isn’t talking about a male partner. The men telling her about their problems are first dates - the time when people are usually trying to show that they are interesting and fun. A man should be able to lean on his long term partner (up to a point - she’s a wife or girlfriend, not an emotional support human) but he can’t expect it from a brand new person.

The Rules always had a bad reputation but so much of it is about being considerate of others. Keeping conversation light and not over sharing during the first two dates is polite, more than anything.

Thanks for being honest.
Can I ask why you haven't made the effort to make some friends or hired a therapist?
Why does that second person have to be a girlfriend or a wife and not a close friend?
This isn't snark, it's a genuine question.
Is it something that just simply didn't occur to you or do you feel that it's a woman's role?

Due to an accident that caused disability, I didn't date for over 10 years. I became invisible to men and it hurt.

I was inside my head a lot, but I had friends and recognised that it wasn't healthy and got therapy.

I was listening to something recently that said as times have changed, women make the effort to do find a community and will identify her shortcomings and look for ways to make it better.
In general, men just get upset that times have changed and do no self reflection, so don't see their shortcomings, thus no self improvement.

If these podcast bros spent their time supporting men instead of moaning about women, who knows where we'd be.

Spot on. I actually think this applies to friendships too. Most of my friends are old mates I’ve known for at least 5 years or longer and we have had some pretty deep conversations over the years - not usually tbh - but sometimes! And we have shared some heavy things.

Whereas I have this friend I met relatively recently. She was basically a friendly acquaintance when we first met of course -and I recall on the first few meet ups it was all very light talking about our favourite biscuits and holiday destinations or funny things our parents have said. As I’ve gotten to know her more we do share a bit more like struggles with colleagues at work for example or burnout in career.

People that ignore social norms and rush to overshare at the first opportunity tend to be a bit self absorbed and while keen to offload seldom reciprocate to the same extent . I’ve noticed that with both men and women.

When I tried OLD, I did a reverse search so I could see who my competitor was! Just said I was a man looking for a woman in my area. Simple! I quickly deleted my profile and never bothered again.