What do you think about Other Women

[Keptawake]

Just wondering what your thoughts are about the type of people that get involved with married/taken people with families?

I’m asking because DP left me 2 months ago for another woman. They’d been seeing each other for about 3 months before he left (an emotional affair which turned into secret dates although he was “respectful” enough to not get physical until the day he walked out). We have 2 kids. She knew he had a family.

It goes without saying that I hate him for this but I’ve also spent the last couple of months raging at the type of woman who could knowingly get involved with and break up a family.

Am I justified in thinking good people don’t do things like this? This might seem like an obvious answer but I’m just feeling a bit low.

If it works out I know at some point I may have to be civil with her as a potential stepmum to my kids but I can’t help thinking that there is no way I want someone like that as a role model in my kids life.

Responsibility for the affair= husband’s responsibility alone, nobody else’s.
Responsibility for choosing to engage in morally repugnant behaviour that hurts others = husband plus OW.
Responsibility for the health of the primary relationship = 50/50 husband and wife.
Blaming the OW for the affair = blaming the wrong person.
I don’t blame OW for affairs but I cannot condone their decision to have relationships with married/ attached men and lie for them and find their behaviour whilst in affairs pretty abhorrent.
However to blame OW for the affair itself removes responsibility from the husband who knew what he was doing and made clear and deliberate choices to cheat.
Even if the OW really did start it, pursued it, encouraged it or danced naked through the office with his name tattooed on her arse, all he had to do at any point was say “no”. It’s his responsibility entirely for choosing to say “yes.” But I also don’t know how you sleep at night knowing you’ve just left a hotel bed after screwing a guy with a wife and children and have so little empathy that you can’t imagine what it would feel like to be them. Or think you’re behaving like a decent human being. And know you were a part of it. It doesn’t make you Satan or a scarlet woman but it does say a lot of negative things about your morals, how you treat and regard others and how selfish you are prepared to be at the expense of others. We all know we should treat others decently and kindly, regardless of our relationship with them, friend or stranger.
I think this thread was always going to turn into an OW bashing thread to be honest, with the very specific question asked by the OP being what people think of OW.
It was always going to be skewed towards opinions of OW because of that. It’s not that people posting solely blame OW (though some probably do) , they’re just answering the question asked which leaves the cheating man pretty much out of the topic here to be fair.
Start a thread about “What is your opinion of men who cheat?” and the balance would be skewed towards bashing cheating men.

Those behaviours are awful and definitely a reason to end the marriage.

However, some of the worst (and most inspiring) stories on here are from women who find out about their husband's infidelity at a time when they are really vulnerable such as during pregnancy and just after giving birth.

One poster who was days away from giving birth was contacted by the other woman to tell her that she was having an affair with her DH. He husband cut off all contact and didn't even contact her to check whether she had given birth and OP found that he had been planning this for a while as he had moved money out of their joint account and drained and closed other accounts that she had access to.

Of course the husband may have told the other woman loads of lies, but any woman that sends a message to another woman when she is days away from giving birth and who has never done anything to harm her, apart from being married to the man she is having an affair with deserves some of the blame for dropping the bombshell that will forever taint the OP's experience of giving birth to her child.

The real villain of the piece will always be the cheating husband but the OW is not blameless.

That emoji is the same mocking tone that the betrayed hears throughout an affair.
The different stages of an affair for two lovers also applies to the different stages for the betrayed, whilst you flirt and shower compliments, the betrayed feels disconnected and confused with little understanding why they are being demoted.
At first they believe there other reasons, depression, age of marriage , h becoming over confident at his stage in life with work, a miriad of reasons but no answers, but the over all feeling of suspition enters, their actions and words become different, you can feel the ow influence, your gut starts shouting out before you even start to find evidence. The ow.

You seep into people's marriages, your ideals, your morals, your mocking tone in the background, it is there, it is not just limited to the husbands presence, men can take on the ow's qualities. It really is a mindfuck and so very horrible, words cannot describe how tarnished everthing feels, almost like a layer of filth has been covered over every aspect of your life, it is called deceit and until you experience it from someone you thought you truly loved then you have no idea of the pain which can be relentless over years.

Many know the type of person who will willingly harm an innocent victim, it is the same kind of person who will fight vigourously for their reasons to have affairs, there is never regret, remorse, sympathy or apologies.

You are what you are, as bad as the men you lay with.

My only pleasure is seeing both the betrayers being discarded in one form or another.

So you are a councillor of some sort guiding couples during and after affairs.

May I say if anyone reading this is currently going through the devestation of being betrayed and wishing to regain their own sanity that you run if you come across a councillor such as this.

Someone who is so markably sure that both parties are at fault will scupper your recovery when you are so vunerable. Find a solo councilor first, bulid up your strength and only then if you wish to proceed with your marriage find one with tact and empathy.

There are many who will take your money and create further damage to you self esteem and health.

An affair is never the betryed person's fault.

@ThatCyanCat "Some of those, though, are definitely ways to kill a relationship. Cheating isn't the only way to do it. If my husband spent our housekeeping money on gambling, showed me no affection, never showered, refused to work, turned the house into a shit tip and generally treated me like dirt, is that really so much better than sleeping with someone else?"

There is an important difference in those two scenarios.

Is someone is treating you like crap then it is overt and you are very much aware of it and can call them out on it.

If someone is cheating it's usually hidden, and because it is covert the cheater has an advantage over the betrayed party. The cheater can "try the new relationship on for size" while having the security of the primary relationship.
It's like someone trying to build a house while someone else is digging away at the foundations.

No, I used to be a CAMHS educational psychologist and then family therapist. Not a couples' counsellor, which is different. Part of what I had to do was help families navigate family breakdown and its impact on children who were usually already struggling in some way, and where there were already family difficulties. My role was to support the whole family to move forward. The priority of a family therapist isn't to validate the hurt feelings of one party over and above others, it's to support the parents and wider family in finding a way to move forward constructively, and that involves the adults taking responsibility for their role in constructing a different future. Getting stuck in blame isn't helpful to that process. The family therapy process is there to support the children primarily, and the aim even if the adults are angry with one another is to try and unite around the shared goal of supporting the children they both love. It is generally future and solution focused.

If people come to family therapy with the mindset of " this person is the bad one, they are the cause of all the problems" and they want the therapist to validate that, or use the process to admonish, they will be disappointed, because that is not what the family therapist is there for.

Of course, it is important if someone has been betrayed that they do get support and validation for their feelings, and individual therapy would be the place for that. Couples' therapy is the place for the couple to work out their own relationship. But a good couples' therapist should not side with either party there either. They are there as a facilitator, not to take sides or apportion blame.

Ffs I am not condoning cheating. I'm simply saying that a) you can damage and show your contempt for your partner in other ways too, including when they are very vulnerable and in covert ways they don't know about, like a secret debt or gambling habit and b) when it happens, it's 100% on the person who promised they'd never do that to you, indeed is the only person who can do that to you, since you can't betray a person you aren't committed to.

If you want to wait for a world where nobody else under any circumstances would ever sleep with your husband, you'll be waiting a long time. We know there are other possible partners out there and that's precisely why we commit in the first place. It's pointless railing at the world your husband promised as his duty that he'd shut out. Even if you scare off OW number 1, you're still stuck with a cheater. If he hasn't taken full responsibility, what's going to happen when he meets the next one?

You seem to have taken my post very personally and I definitely did not say or even hint that you are condoning cheating. I gave a specific example where the other woman was front and centre in dropping a bombshell into OP's and her children's lives just as OP was about to give birth.

Of course you can damage and show contempt for your partner in ways other than cheating. A secret gambling addiction is definitely a betrayal but when betrayed women look for someone to blame (which is just human nature and they will also blame themselves), they are more like to target the other women if the betrayal is by cheating, than the (nameless, faceless) gambling companies, if the betrayal is gambling.

With respect I have never known children of divorce truly accept futher partners or eventually the behaviour of the betrayer within a family. With age the truth usually becomes apparent.

These sessions are to put a suppresant on the emotions of the betrayed and the children who also feel betrayed. I should imagine many a victim walks away truly damaged from these talks. I understand you seek to calm but I bet many walk away feeling far less calm than previously, being publicly admonshed by a certified body.

Only years after do people tend to fully understand the truly vile behaviour of some humans and their reactions are then justified and appropriatly modified to those kinds of people.

I do not envy the job you had, so many falsehoods to ease many a bad concience.

No, I've not taken your post personally, I'm just a bit irritated with people explaining at length to me why cheating is wrong as if I've been saying it isn’t, so I'm then compelled to read long posts in reply to me that don't relate to anything I've said.

This isn’t just OW thing, but also another man thing. My mum had an affair with another man when I was a child. He became my stepdad and I’m not being over dramatic by saying it ruined my life - because of the enormous knock-on effect it had on everyone who was supposed to look after me back then. My dad was extremely bitter and angry and took it out on me (I believe as I reminded him of my mum). He became emotionally and occasionally physically abusive. My mum acted like a teenager in love for the first time and put her new man first. She let my new step dad criticise me constantly and I no longer had a proper home with her. Both “homes” were absolute nightmare places to live. My dad still blames me for choosing to live with them (best of two evils) after years of abuse. Not being hit was slightly better than living somewhere I felt unwanted and was constantly criticised. Consequently I developed severe depression and abandonment issues that I still suffer. I mainly blame my mum for choosing to leave- I believe the biggest chunk of the blame always lies with the person who decides to break up their own family. However I hate my step dad with a passion, I never forgave him. I have more hate and less blame for him and more blame and less hate for my mum. He still deserves partial blame though. I don’t believe a genuinely good person with a decent moral compass could do this. I also blame my dad for not being grown-up enough to put his children before his own pain but I also have a lot of sympathy for him. At the end of the day, the person who chooses to permanently destroy the security and safety of the life they have created for their children is the person who deserves the lion’s share of the blame. It is selfish beyond belief

@teaksideboard I think you may be misunderstanding what I'm saying about the difference between fault or blame and responsibility. I have never said, and nor do I think, that an affair is the betrayed partner's fault. All through this thread, I have consistently said I don't condone cheating and that it is destructive, selfish and harmful.

Responsibility is different to blame, and what I do think is that in most cases (not necessarily all, see previous caveats) the parents will share responsibility for the dynamics created in the relationship and family that led to the deterioration of it. That's wholly different to saying a cheated on partner is responsible for or to blame for the other's affair, which they are not. The parents are also equally responsible for what happens next wrt the care of children and supporting them as adults should, despite whatever may be happening between them. That might be uncomfortable to hear, but its also a hard truth.

I daresay that some partners who have been cheated on would walk away from this kind of process feeling like they haven't been validated. I'm okay with that, because that wasn't the primary purpose of what the family therapy and family conferencing service was there for. However, thats not to say it isn't a valid need to have that support, and I would always refer to individual therapy for those who needed that, because of course they need an outlet and something that's there for them to process their own feelings and experiences.

I also think there are some situations where it isn't possible to do constructive work to support a family to move forward in the way I've suggested, or it would be harmful to do so. This approach isn't right for every situation, and may well not have been for yours, or you. But it absolutely did help keep some families out of CAFCASS and the courts, or avoid care proceedings, which was what we were there to try to do.

I'm so sorry you had to go through that and still do.

I think this is very different to blaming an AP when your partner cheats. This is a case of an abused child being treated like dirt by all the adults in the room, including a stepfather who, it sounds, took on an "authority" (for want of a better word) that was never his and then abused it, and you.

Thank you for this.
As someone whose husband was unfaithful I appreciate this.
I think its easily forgotten that the goal in couples therapy is to repair the relationship (or figure out if that's not the best option)
Personally, I have individual therapy alongside our couples therapy with an entirely different person. That's my space to recover and heal.
Whilst of course my husband did a horrendous thing in betraying me the way he did, making a new marriage that is better than the old one is about more than atonement.
Our therapist not taking sides, actually means we both get what we need.
Pushing him deeper into shame and ignoring my own unhelpful habits / behaviours won't bring honesty or connection between us.
Whilst issues within our old marriage could never be a cause of his affair, we don't want to carry those into this new marriage therefore it's important to have a therapist that helps us identify and address what those were and create better habits in this new relationship.
I don't think having the therapist take sides and / or place all blame at my husbands feet would help us in the long term. Of course she will point out when needed that the choice to have an affair was his and his alone but she also helps us to figure out what made him see that as a choice.

I'm aware BTW that most of mumsnet sees those of us that stay after an affair as foolish. I don't judge anyone's choice to leave. But for me, I saw a chance to rebuild something else.

I think if they know the man is in a relationship, they’re scum. They’re not quite as bad as the man, but there’s not a huge deal in it. They’re also a fool if they expect him to leave his wife for them or to treat them well in future if he does. You can’t help who you fall for, but you are fully able to say “not until you’re completely single”.

I don’t think it’s right to blame the other woman more than the man. But I would think it was reasonable if someone did blame them equally, even if personally I think the man is worse.

If they didn’t know at first and stay with him anyway, they’re not quite as awful as the first scenario but not far off and just as much of a fool. If they didn’t know and end it as soon as they find out, they’re a victim.

They’re not quite as bad as the man, but there’s not a huge deal in it.

If marrying or committing to someone, having kids with them, building a life with them, making them a promise, isn't a huge deal more than being a total stranger and doesn't make you vastly more, if not entirely, responsible, then what's the point of it? Why commit if it only makes you a smidge more responsible than a stranger?

I feel sorry for my ExH's last OW, they're still together and he is a complete arse to her. She also wanted children of her own, but he didn't want a fourth child.

I on the other hand, met my amazing DP a few months after the ex left, and he has raised my children as his own, so I quietly thank her for taking an utter a-hole off my hands.

I agree that the cheat is completely responsible for the affair itself, but I do think that the OW is partly responsible for the hurt and damage caused by being the person that agreed to sleep with somebody else’s’ husband or partner. You’d have to be a pretty dim or callous person to not know that you are a part of deeply hurting the woman who is committed to the man you’re sleeping with, and her children, if they find out, stranger or not.
I can’t believe if the OW was cheated on herself (many threads here tell of men who left to be with OW who cheating on her, too) she wouldn’t also be upset to varying degrees with the woman who replaced her, hypocritical or fair or not. It’s a pretty natural response in the circumstances.
Many threads I’ve seen over time are from women who say that the OW who is now with their ex husband absolutely hates them and is vile to them. Ex wives can be vile to the OW too. Two women who still want the same man are rarely ever going to be best friends with one another, no matter who is in the right or wrong. Fairness rarely comes into play at that point.
I also think that betrayed wives and betrayed husbands are never ever to blame or are responsible for their spouse’s decision to cheat. They are fifty percent responsible for what went on in the marriage, absolutely, but none of that gives anyone the right to lie to them and betray them.
Nobody forces anybody to cheat, it’s a choice amongst other far more ethical options. If it was a given that marital problems cause cheating then everybody would do it at one point or another. No marriage is perfect. Unhappy people cheat, but people who are happy in their marriages and just want a bit of extra marital ‘fun’ on the side cheat too.
There are plenty of married people who, even if their spouse was not treating them decently, would never, ever cheat on them or anybody else , because they have principles, personal standards and find dishonesty and betrayal abhorrent in any circumstances. They just wouldn’t do it.
In counselling I feel that examining the marriage and the infidelity are two separate issues. The marriage issues are a joint responsibility, but the infidelity is a sole responsibility. If both spouses accept that they played a part in the state of their marriage, how is it that the faithful spouse’s responsibilities also extend to the behaviour of the unfaithful spouse? If the marriage is rendered unsatisfactory on and by both sides but only one spouse cheats, surely they can’t point the finger at the betrayed spouse and claim, even in part, that they made them do it? They had no other option? That’s nonsense. Of course they did. Unhappiness and dissatisfaction do not give you the right or permission to lie and deceive.
The fault and blame for the infidelity lie with the unfaithful partner, no matter what their spouse did. It was a personal choice, when faced with their set of circumstances, that not everybody in the same position would take. To ask a betrayed partner in what way or to what extent they thought they had contributed to their partner’s decision to cheat is saying that their actions were part of the cause. The unfaithful partner is an adult who has control over their own behaviour. Nobody else is responsible for it, nor can they or should they attempt to control the behaviour of others.
Betrayed spouses are not saints, no, and must bear their share of the responsibility for their marriage, but they played no part whatsoever in their spouse’s decision to cheat. Saying their behaviour contributed towards it is saying that they shared in causing it, which is neither true nor fair.
The fur would quite rightly fly on MN if anyone said to a devastated betrayed woman here “Well, what was your part in making him unhappy? What did you expect? if you hadn’t done x or y he wouldn’t have cheated/ if you’d been more x or y he wouldn’t have cheated/ it’s no wonder he cheated, what did you expect if you did/ didn’t do x or y? “
I agree that betrayed wives are not all saints and OW are not all evil and unfaithful husbands are not all evil, but the one absolute I will use, is that the cause of the cheating itself is never the fault, blame or responsibility of the betrayed spouse , always 100% the unfaithful spouse’s.
They might both have things to apologise for about their conduct within the marriage, but only one person has to apologise for bringing infidelity into the marriage: the unfaithful spouse.

Nothing, because it takes the focus away from cheating men. And if you're married to one, it's him you need to be reflecting on, not some random woman who has no other relevance than being the device for his betrayal of you.

That's funny isn't it. The ow my husband is still woth is a carer...not very caring is it..helping to blow up a family unit with young children involved.

How did you meet your new partner?

@Mrspinknails My friends persuaded me to do online dating. He was my first (and last) date.

Gosh that's lucky. Everything ive read is ..its a numbers game...got to kids frogs for ages etc. .not sure i could be bothered